Clean and unclean foods

[Byblos]

B.W., the verses you gave don't apply to clean and unclean foods. They apply to fasting, and the eating of food that had been sacrificed to animals.

How do you figure? Please explain.

[oscarsiziba]

Hi Oscarsiziba, your understanding of the 'first sin' that was committed by the first humans is one I have never come across!! Adam and Eve were disobedient, they did something God told them not to. I don't even know for sure if the tree is a literal tree, although I do accept that it is, I am open to the possibility it may be symbolic. Anyway, the fact that the tree represents Good and evil is a clue to all this, not the 'act of eating' which is what I think you are suggesting. Correct me if I am wrong. It could even be argued that they sinned prior to the actual act of eating, in that they would have to have desired the fruit, or they made a conscious choice to disobey God - Jesus tells us that sin is born in the 'heart' before the actual act itself. Anyway, did you read the link I mentioned. I cannot in all honesty see how anyone who applies the diligence of the Bereans, and who takes into account the whole of the Bible, can still believe we are under the Law. Paul and other scriptures plainly show that Jesus is the 'fulfillment' of that imperfect Law and the new law, or new covenant is superior and perfect. God Bless

I like you.Has God not mentioned that there are things to be eaten and not to be taken.Anything that was not prescribed by God for and as food is not.You say Adam and Eve did what was forbidden/Read Leviticus 11 and know what God forbade and find whether or not you are bcoming as another Eve or Adam.God forbade some things and for us to reason would be like beholding the fruit as desirable,while God has outlawed its consumption.Remember this fruit(very literal) did not contain any poison or anything harmful ,but was to be a test of loyalty-they chose to be like God and in the process became like Satan.It may not be poisonous to partake of pork or any outlawed thing,but it certainly has a bearing on our eternity.God does not operate on principles of logic,but trust.The health and dietary laws were not shadows of anything to come as were other ceremonial laws as sacrifices.
Sin is manifest in thought and action,not one of these is least.Think to eat or eat is the same.HOW do you define sin?
You say Jesus is the fulfillment of the imperfect law and we are not under the law?Does this mean everyone,everyone is going to go heaven despite their deeds/Do you believe there is going to be judgment?If you do,what do you think is the standard by which the world is going to be judged?Guesswork or no judgment all are bound for heaven,if so then God is not so great as I thought(immoral and has no standards?)
Revelation 14 v12 says something of the the saints that keep the commandments(are they the same as the law or I am mistaken)as characterising God's chosen,Matth 19 v17,Rev 22 v14.Do you believe that Rev is the book that shows what will happen in the final stages of the earth,if so then see it addresses the commandments and their keeping as necessary to enter heaven.
My heart bleeds

[Katabole]

I guess I should ask, for those who believe that the food laws in Leviticus 11 are done away with, what foods do you believe are fit for consumption and which one's are not? What criteria does a person base what is fit or not fit to eat on, other than personal choice?

The horse for example was a clean animal that could be consumed, but it was used as a work animal and a war animal. Yet, only a small portion of the world population today eats them. The bear on the other hand would be an example of an unclean animal.

And not that I actaully eat these creatures, but if you came over to my house and I served you dog steaks, cat fingers, bat crunchies and eel orderves at supper, would you refuse them and if so, why?

I'm not writing this to judge anyone, or to talk anyone out of eating a bacon sandwich. What you eat is not going to affect your salvation. It may however, affect the health of your flesh body while you live.

[catherine]

Hi Oscarsiziba, I like you too and I know that we 'see' things, or rather we understand these matters differently. Don't let your heart bleed for me, my own heart bleeds for me all the time!! You said: 'God does not operate on principles of logic....' so why then did God after the Flood, allow Noah and his family to eat 'every moving thing that lives' Gen 9: 3??

There were no 'unclean' animals then, as in reality, there is no such thing as an unclean animal. When the whole of the Mosaic system, the laws, the priesthood, temple etc, was set up God did make a (temporary) distinction with the animals. B.W quoted some very important scriptures a few posts before this. If you want to not eat certain animals then that is absolutely fine! I wouldn't dream of eating these animals in your presence as I would know it would offend you. I hope you can maybe begin to see where I am coming from and have a think about the point I asked you above as I would be very interested to know why you think God allowed them to eat ALL animals at that time?

[B. W.]

B.W., the verses you gave don't apply to clean and unclean foods. They apply to fasting, and the eating of food that had been sacrificed to animals.

Note quite - it applies to what makes a new believer stumble and it also applies to dietary laws and Sabbath.

If someone wants to keep the dietary laws or a Saturday Sabbath - so be it and one does not keep the dietary laws or a Saturday Sabbath - so be it.

The message is simple - stop condemning one another other these issues and placing stumbling blocks before new believers.

2 Timothy 3:16, “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,…” ESV

Regarding Romans 14 and 15:

When a person starts to nullify God's word being conveyed in Romans 14 and 15 using arguments for literalness as you do and then not applying it elsewhere when it opposes what you believe, then, that is a sure sign of an aberrant cultic way of thinking used to manipulate people away from recognizing the truth and liberty in Christ Christians do have. This is tactic is employed by all aberrant cult like groups to enslave one to a cult leaders point of view and not to the libertating gospel of Christ.

How is the study on the names of God going, Jenna, on the Trinty thread? You are that Jenna - correct? If so what are you learning?
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[zoegirl]

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Romans 14

I think this says it all concerning foods AND the sabbath days and about condemning those who worship on Sunday and eat "unclean foods"

And to answer the question about how to decide what foods are improper....basic understanding of hygiene and health, that understanding that wasn't available to the Hebrews is now available to us. We know now what temperatures to avoid and how to preserve and what is healthy to our bodies.

[oscarsiziba]

B.W., the verses you gave don't apply to clean and unclean foods. They apply to fasting, and the eating of food that had been sacrificed to animals.

Note quite - it applies to what makes a new believer stumble and it also applies to dietary laws and Sabbath.

If someone wants to keep the dietary laws or a Saturday Sabbath - so be it and one does not keep the dietary laws or a Saturday Sabbath - so be it.

The message is simple - stop condemning one another other these issues and placing stumbling blocks before new believers.

2 Timothy 3:16, “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,…” ESV

Regarding Romans 14 and 15:

When a person starts to nullify God's word being conveyed in Romans 14 and 15 using arguments for literalness as you do and then not applying it elsewhere when it opposes what you believe, then, that is a sure sign of an aberrant cultic way of thinking used to manipulate people away from recognizing the truth and liberty in Christ Christians do have. This is tactic is employed by all aberrant cult like groups to enslave one to a cult leaders point of view and not to the libertating gospel of Christ.

How is the study on the names of God going, Jenna, on the Trinty thread? You are that Jenna - correct? If so what are you learning?
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Then you imply everyone is going to be in heaven because God accepts our inclinations?Is not His standard and rule superior?If it is ,then that means Paul was addressing this to people who already knew what to eat and not to eat-that in the foods they understood to be on God's menu they were not supposed to put stumbling blocks in the way of another.Where does the issue of temperance to gain mastery and eating and drinking to give glory to God come in when there are no rules that govern what and how we eat?Note well that the Bible says in the last days there are some that will come and forbid marriages and food to be eaten that...was created to be received with thanksgiving (1 Timothy 4 V1-3) and of them which believe and know the truth.If God has given everything to us for consumption,why would there be need to know the truth(there are lies that go with the food issues,implication is that there is a certain truth that should be known regarding foods-it being that God never rescinded on the foods that He declared abominations.Why did Noah take two of each of the animals that God had declared unclean into the ark while he took seven of those that God had declared clean?These my questions are never answered.
If all things created by God are clean then why does Revelation talk of evil ,unclean and fowl birds(Rev 18 v2)?Is this not supposed to mean that there are foods that shall forever be unclean though they may be ok with us.Remember forbidden fruits create many jams and our nature is bent on eating everything that flies save for planes and anything that has got legs save for tables and chairs.God 's order is so high that He would not take into heaven people that eat any and everything.Food has temptation,ask Adam and Jesus and the other part of salvation is found therein.
Some things are forbidden because they are bad and some bad because they are forbidden.My summation.

[Katabole]

Osacar said:

Paul was addressing this to people who already knew what to eat and not to eat-that in the foods they understood to be on God's menu they were not supposed to put stumbling blocks in the way of another.

I agree with you Oscar. That's what Roman's 14 is speaking of.

Your original question was, "I perceive these food laws are still binding, what do you think?"

The food laws couldn't be explained any simpler.

Lev 11:2, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.

Following in the chapter the foods listed are animals, "which ye shall eat."

Then it lists and explains examples of the unclean animals and says:

Lev 11:8, Of their flesh shall ye not eat,

This indeed belongs to the law because:

Lev 11:46, This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:

Accordingly from the answers given some think it is ok to eat anything at all. God clearly says in Leviticus 11 it is not ok to eat everything.

So when Jesus says,

Matt 5:17, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus didn't change those food laws. Man did. The food laws are really as verse 19 here clearly says, the least of commandments. And this verse 19 is a warning to those who would break these commandments (including the food laws) and teach others that there was nothing wrong with doing that, including eating the flesh of animals, that God clearly points out in Lev 11, He expected them not to eat. If what was stated by others is true, they believe Jesus did away with the law, which completely contradicts what Jesus himself stated in Matt 5: 17-19. I believe Jesus' words, not the words of men who are trying not to feel guilt and justify eating things God never created to be eaten. God calls those creatures abominations for a reason:

8263 Abomination
sheqets
sheh'-kets
from 'shaqats' (8262); filth, i.e. (figuratively and specifically) an idolatrous object:--abominable(-tion).

Lev 11:11,They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh,

Couldn't be said any simpler.

Psalm 147:5, Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

[zoegirl]

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself.

[B. W.]

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself.

That's the monkey wrench that gums up Oscarsizbia and Katabole's position...and strips the gears clean
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[jenna]

No, not really, B.W. Tell me why God would specify exactly which animals are unclean and unfit for food, and then turn around and say all animals are able to be eaten? This makes no sense. God doesn't change, neither do His laws. It is man who decides to change what God has said. God says "do not eat swine's flesh", and pork is the #1 selling meat in the world. Not to mention shrimp, crab, lobster, catfish, rabbit, etc. So many think it is okay to eat these animals, when we are plainly told not to. And one wonders why we have so much disease and sickness in the world. There were reasons we were told not to eat certain kinds of animals, and those reasons remain the same, regardless of how they are cooked or the temperatures involved.

[jenna]

Hi Oscarsiziba, I like you too and I know that we 'see' things, or rather we understand these matters differently. Don't let your heart bleed for me, my own heart bleeds for me all the time!! You said: 'God does not operate on principles of logic....' so why then did God after the Flood, allow Noah and his family to eat 'every moving thing that lives' Gen 9: 3??

There were no 'unclean' animals then, as in reality, there is no such thing as an unclean animal. When the whole of the Mosaic system, the laws, the priesthood, temple etc, was set up God did make a (temporary) distinction with the animals. B.W quoted some very important scriptures a few posts before this. If you want to not eat certain animals then that is absolutely fine! I wouldn't dream of eating these animals in your presence as I would know it would offend you. I hope you can maybe begin to see where I am coming from and have a think about the point I asked you above as I would be very interested to know why you think God allowed them to eat ALL animals at that time?

Read a little further, Catherine. Notice it says God has given us all things, even as the green herbs. Are we able to eat all plants as well? Of course not. What is meant by this is that God has given us all animals for our use. We cannot eat all green herbs, as many are poisonous and would make us sick, or possibly kill us. The same reasoning goes for animals.

[jenna]

Well, I guess it comes down to this:

Are you saved because you keep the dietary laws?

Or by Christ finished work on the cross?

Some of you believe in annihilationism so therefore — eat a ham sandwich and you are doomed!

Eating bacon can lead to a heart attack as does eating kosher lamb and beef…so don't eat meat and take supplements. Better yet — not eat at all. Just kidding…

Anyway let me get back to the point — what saves? Law or Christ?

Which binds burdens too hard to bear on backs of the people? The Law or Christ?

Or which binds burdens too hard to bear on backs of the people? Liberal progressives legislating what thou shall eat or not eat, wear or not wear, what you can or not own, how much you owe taxes or not owe? What saves — this new Phariseeism or Christ?

Most here would declare that Christ saves and the law cannot, yet, people are still told to hold fast to the dietary laws. Makes no sense…

If you want to hold too the dietary laws that is your prerogative but do not be fooled that that alone can save you from sin or keep you saved either. -
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Christ's death is what saves us. Does this mean we are free to go against what God has told us to do and not to do?

[jenna]

Ok, last post for tonite. This one for Oscar. The reason Noah took only 2 unclean animals and 7 clean animals in the ark was for food. If Noah had eaten even one of the unclean animals, then that species would not have been able to reproduce its own kind. That is why there were 7 clean animals, so that he could eat meat and still leave that animal able to reproduce. Hope this helps.

[zoegirl]

No, not really, B.W. Tell me why God would specify exactly which animals are unclean and unfit for food, and then turn around and say all animals are able to be eaten? This makes no sense. God doesn't change, neither do His laws. It is man who decides to change what God has said. God says "do not eat swine's flesh", and pork is the #1 selling meat in the world. Not to mention shrimp, crab, lobster, catfish, rabbit, etc. So many think it is okay to eat these animals, when we are plainly told not to. And one wonders why we have so much disease and sickness in the world. There were reasons we were told not to eat certain kinds of animals, and those reasons remain the same, regardless of how they are cooked or the temperatures involved.

Hi Jenna,

As I see it, people are throwing around two different ideas....

1) the dietary laws were for us to keep us healthy

2) we need to still uphold these dietary laws because, well, they are laws (Considering that most here have agreed that it is Christ that saves and that we are not under the law and that the law does not save, I'm not going to stress this, since that last several posts focused on hygiene)

Addressing numner 1
PleASE, then, show me where these foods have been shown to be detrimental when cooked thoroughly and prepared properly.

If the issue was to avoid foods that are more prone to have parasites and other food-borne pathogens, proper food handling and cooking takes care of things AND the REASON for the laws would be negated (if, after all, if in God's wisdom He provided these laws to prevent disease transmission before the knowledge of disease transmission and proper food handling was underdtood, then that very understanding allows us to fulfill the REASON for the laws....good health)

If, on the other hand, there is something fundamental about these animals that are detrimental, then please show me the research (for surely there would have been some by now). Ia there somtething inherently unhealthy about pork meat as compared to beef?


Also, consoder these words from Christ, who addressed the issue of clean versus unclean. Yes, I know it does not directly address clean and unclean food, but it addresses the issue of food and what makes us unclean AND I think provides us with an importatn clue as to the [ahem] meat of the matter (sorry, could'nt resist)....the uncleaness of the human heart rather than the uncleaness of the food.

1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[a] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[c]' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[d]"

10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"

13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides.[e] If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."

16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "

As to your plant examples....consider the standard by which we do not eat plants....those that are unhealthy or poisonous....did God provide a list? Or are to understand that those that are detrimental are to be avoided? IN other words our UNDERSTANDING of the nature of the plants iS WHat determines what to eat.

There were plenty of ceremonial laws that the new Christian church struggled with, for instance, circumcision. Now interestingly, there HAS been some, albeit, slight, evidence that circumcision helps prevent disease transmission. But circumcision was an outwaed sign and had no bearing on the inward change that takes place. The new Christian Church struggled with the issue of calling for new Christian gentiles to be required to be circumcised (which was surely part of the law)

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Acts. 15:5-11



WHich again leads to Romans 14

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.

Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.