Hi all,
just thought I'd share with u guys an issue I've been thinking about for a while...
For myself, I came to faith in Christ based on the evidence of His resurrection - but how are we to "treat our faith" while the evidence comes under attack?
...I have not been been seriously moved by any of the attempts to undermine Christianity in past yrs, but each time I go to "reinvestigate", it feels as though I am "putting my faith on hold" until the challenge is overcome... and then it's "all ok" until the next challenge appears...
I know there is more to faith than just intellectually examining the evidence... (experiencing relationship with God for one is a factor), but I think I need help understanding how this all fits into living the Christian life...
e.g. is it normal for a person to be seesawing between doubt and faith based on their investigations...? if so, is this really "true faith in God", as we are placing so much authority on our intellectual abilities? conversely, if we say "the Bible is always true" are we then embracing a blind faith? ...tis a bit of a conundrum
...anyhow, if anyone has any ideas, please shout back
Hey Fleaster, some very good thoughts. I think most people who are Christians are that not b/c of evidence, but b/c of faith. However, that does not in any way make it futile to look at the evidence that God has placed in front of us, especially when you have a person directly atking your faith with "knowledge falsely called so" (1 Timothy 6:20).
I'll tell you example. An "undecided" friend of mine came to me and told me Christianity was completely made up from previous religions such as Egyptianism and Mithraism. He got this idea from an online movie called Zeitgeist. Now, when I first watched that video (the first hour or so, not all of it is about Christianity) I was a little shocked at how strong the argument seemed, and I guess you could say may faith was challenged (although I wouldn't of denounced God some doubt was there). I mean, according to Zeitgeist Mithra was "born of a virgin" and "died for our sins". However, after looking at true evidence I realized that there is only about a paragraph of Mithraism's doctrain that we know about. Mithra was born of a rock (now, I guess you could call the rock a virgin but when was the last time you heard of a rock having intercourse?) and several other little things that have nothing to do with Christianity. There's also no reason Mithra would have appealed to early Christians as it was a military cult. I also researched Hsarus (another God Zeitgeist claimed as roots of Christianity) and found that there are no real similarities.
Now, when I go into a discussion with somebody about evidence for Christianity I have faith that evidence for God will be on the winning side, and it always has been for me. Now, let's say I got into a discussion with someone and they presented seemingly "flawless" evidence that Christianity was a joke. I would still go follow God by faith. Just b/c we are ignorant on many thnigs doesn't mean Christianity is false. It's not as if we could understand all of God's mysteries anyways. However, we are called to seek our God and understand what we can nonetheless.
I'd say doubt is, in some ways, from Satan.
Ephesians 6:12 - For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
You should take a look at Ephesians 6 in it's entirety, it's very good. We are constantly engaged in spiritually warfare, and Satan and his forces will do anything to completely destroy our relationship with God. One of C.S. Lewis' books, The Screwtape Letters presents some good thoughts on how we are atked spiritually.
Just b/c you have doubt doesn't mean you aren't saved,
Romans 10: 9,10 - That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
A Quote from Prince Caspian (Aslan speaking to Caspian): "You come from of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve, and that is both honor enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperors on earth. Be content."
Sorry if I offend you in an apologetical discussion, I can be very crude.
Thanks for your comments MarkyMark... yeah was just having this discussion with my wife and she asked "is there room for child like faith...?" I guess that's one of the things - how do we define having a child like faith in this day and age where just about everything comes under attack...
...i guess i am with u when it comes to "investigating the evidence" - i don't doubt that the Bible will prove itself - after all God's Word has been defending itself for 2000 yrs and continues to do so without our help ...but I think it's just that "moment of doubt" that I struggle with, and how long this "moment" lasts for...
...altho sometimes I know I get a bit caught up in "fruitless controversies" that put my mind in a boggle hehe...
fleaster wrote:Thanks for your comments MarkyMark... yeah was just having this discussion with my wife and she asked "is there room for child like faith...?" I guess that's one of the things - how do we define having a child like faith in this day and age where just about everything comes under attack...
...i guess i am with u when it comes to "investigating the evidence" - i don't doubt that the Bible will prove itself - after all God's Word has been defending itself for 2000 yrs and continues to do so without our help ...but I think it's just that "moment of doubt" that I struggle with, and how long this "moment" lasts for...
...altho sometimes I know I get a bit caught up in "fruitless controversies" that put my mind in a boggle hehe...
We have faith, but it is not a blind faith and once faith is exercised that doesn't preclude continuing to stengthen that faith, in part through continued examination of the evidence to understand better where we can.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
Canuckster1127 wrote:
We have faith, but it is not a blind faith and once faith is exercised that doesn't preclude continuing to stengthen that faith, in part through continued examination of the evidence to understand better where we can.
...I agree we don't have a blind faith, and continual examination of the evidence enables us to strengthen our faith... but what if:
(1) during our investigations, our faith becomes doubtful...
(2) what does this say about the nature of our faith when it is so dependent on intellectual analysis?
...I guess I'm still pondering how to approach the "child like faith" thing...
Canuckster1127 wrote:
We have faith, but it is not a blind faith and once faith is exercised that doesn't preclude continuing to stengthen that faith, in part through continued examination of the evidence to understand better where we can.
...I agree we don't have a blind faith, and continual examination of the evidence enables us to strengthen our faith...
fleaster wrote:but what if:
(1) during our investigations, our faith becomes doubtful...
Hello fleaster, welcome to the board. I think it was Ravi Zacharias who wrote "Doubt can make our faith stronger." In my case it is certainly true, when I begin to doubt in the face of new information, it tends to make me look more intensly at that info and reason with it. I think all serious Christians sometimes have doubt and it is a maturing of our faith- to paraphrase Canuckster; understanding better where we can.
(2) what does this say about the nature of our faith when it is so dependent on intellectual analysis?
Mat. 22:37 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul,and with all thy mind. This verse tells me I am to love GOD with all inward affections, all consciousness, and with all of my intellectual abilities. Not entirely dependent upon my intellect of course, but equal to affection and conscience. We are- IMHO- to pursue the things of GOD even when it flies in the face of our faith as some information does.
...I guess I'm still pondering how to approach the "child like faith" thing...
An honorable pursuit in the eyes of GOD. Mat.18:4-Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
There is much room for childlikeness and in my case a conscious pursuit of humility is the key.
I hope you don't mind, but I would like to offer prayer that your doubts are not overwhelming.
Last edited by Cross.eyed on Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hey Cross.eyed et al thanks very much for the encouragement... and no, i would definitely not object to being prayed for
...no I don't think my "doubts" have become crippling at any stage, altho they may have sometimes caused "old fears" to resurface e.g. b4 I was a Christian I would have panic attacks just considering the prospect of death... and sometimes they reoccur now too during periods of uncertainty - I dunnoo mebbe I've been surfing the Net too much getting ensconced in too many "controversies"...
...but I always bring myself back to earth with reason i.e. one small challenge is not enuf to throw the whole lot out the window.. and these challenges are always overcome in time... because I believe that God's Word IS true...
...that's a really good point re: loving the Lord with all your heart, soul and MIND... i think i've always taken the "heart and soul" part on board, but never considered the "mind" part...
fleaster wrote:hey Cross.eyed et al thanks very much for the encouragement... and no, i would definitely not object to being prayed for
Prayers sent.
...no I don't think my "doubts" have become crippling at any stage, altho they may have sometimes caused "old fears" to resurface...
Looking at my post, I should have said....don't become overwhelming. My bad.
...but I always bring myself back to earth with reason i.e. one small challenge is not enuf to throw the whole lot out the window.. and these challenges are always overcome in time... because I believe that God's Word IS true...
Thats pretty much the way it works for me too.
...that's a really good point re: loving the Lord with all your heart, soul and MIND... i think i've always taken the "heart and soul" part on board, but never considered the "mind" part...
This hit home with me while reading C.S. Lewis' book- Mere Christianity.
fleaster wrote:...that's a really good point re: loving the Lord with all your heart, soul and MIND... i think i've always taken the "heart and soul" part on board, but never considered the "mind" part...
It took me awhile to realize the 'MIND' part also. Only later did I realize I had to renew my mind....so my first thought or reaction lined up with what the Bible had to say about it....instead of what I was programed to think or react in the world. It's a time consuming process but it sure beat dealing with double-mindedness everytime a situation came up.
This is also how I had to train myself to quit cussing...I first had to quit cussing in my mind instead of just trying not to say what I was thinking when I was mad.
God is Great, and therefore He will be sought.
Good is Good, and therefore He will be found.
Anonymous
nobible wrote:Faith should not be a matter of how much evidence there is or isn't behind it. If that were the case, it wouldn't be faith!
Faith is trusting something. To gain trust you need reason and evidence. Too many people have misinterpreted faith to mean blind faith. My faith certainly is not blind. It was science, logic and reason that brought me to faith in Jesus.
The biblical meaning of faith is closer to what we would call loyalty than it is to belief, so this objection fails, and in all honesty, is really no more than an attempt to play with semantics.
I'd agree, in the abstract, it doesn't necessarily need it, especially if you're into syncretic stuff or mere philosophical systems, but what inherently prevents evidence from having a role?
