Near Death Experiences?

[madscientist]

Interesting!! More science arguments
Yeah i mean gives a good reason for atheists... also - hallucinations, but also visions. If we have a supernatural vision - is that our brain which has been stimulated by "spiritual powers" or is it purely non-metaphysical and doesnt account for psychology at all?
Hallucinations are interesting because (i think - this is what i learned at chemistry a while ago ) that hallucinations happen because the chemical causes the synapses to pass through and the effect is the SAME as if there were a stimulus. So in our own world, yes, hallucination is a REAL thing but for others it isnt there. Anyway not only that but perception and optical illusions or any other illusions as well.

I however still believe that NDEs (however think they should really rename them) are of kinda supernatural nature and cannot be simply reduced to brain chemistry whatsoever...

[Gman]

I however still believe that NDEs (however think they should really rename them) are of kinda supernatural nature and cannot be simply reduced to brain chemistry whatsoever...

Agreed, it is also interesting to note that most of these NDE's are very similar. Many people claim that they hover over their body and actually witness what is happening to them from a totally different viewpoint.....

We are spirits in the material world. Are spirits in the material world....
-Sting

[madscientist]

We are spirits in the material world. Are spirits in the material world....
-Sting

Hehe yeah we are. However... are we "real spirits" only once our body leaves us / we leave body? Because as long as our physical body is alive, as if it were ruling our spiritual body - we dont feel the spiritual world that much (or some dont feel it at all) but once our physical body dies (or NDE?) then we are no longer under metaphysical laws but under "laws" of spirituality. So these 2 must be somehow connected. BTW there was an interesting book (dont know the title or author) but he was saying that when we die our soul will be leaving us, but the more we sinned and were attached to materialistic world, the more painful will this be. Therefore we will suffer more. Then also, that when soul still in body, we can feel everything and PAIN. That pain is so great... so immense. That if something were to happen to our physical body then we feel it extremely. Body dead, but we feel and sense everything around us, including people. Now don't know to what extent this should be believed etc and how it connects but i think he also mentioned NDEs somewhere in it.
Anyway, there are so many theories out there that no one really knows what is the "truth" Bible has it all, but even then questions are raised and doubts form part of faith and belief, so these need to be solved further...

[Canuckster1127]

We are spirits in the material world. Are spirits in the material world....
-Sting

We are living in a material world, and I am a material girl ....
-Madonna

[Gman]

We are living in a material world, and I am a material girl ....
-Madonna

Breakdown...

[fdesilva]

Let us assume that there is a spirit, that is something totally none material in the brain.
Let us assume that this entity has an ability to interact with the physical brain as well as a spiritual realm totally outside the physical brain.
Now what this entity experiences in the spiritual realm, it can try to translate into a physical experience that can be recorded in the physical brain. However this translation will never be as perfect as the experience that the entity had in the spiritual realm. As the constrains that the entity will have would be similar to what a person would have if asked to describe using a language (e.g. English) the experience of watching a sunset to a blind person.
Now when the chemistry of the brain is altered by drugs or other means, there is 3 possibilities.
1. The this entity is not able to interact with the physical brain, and as such experiences only the spiritual.
2. The physical brain becomes so active that the entity becomes totally absorbed in the physical activity of the brain.
3. It is still able to experience both realms, and is able to translate from the spiritual to the physical more easily than when the brain is not under the changed condition.

Thus the point I am trying to make is that just because stimulating the brain can bring about NDE experiences does not mean that there is no spiritual entity within the brain. As if the stimulation to the brain are such that the spiritual entity cannot interact with the brain, then it will result it in having a NDE experience.

[jenna]

We are living in a material world, and I am a material girl ....
-Madonna

Breakdown...

[madscientist]

Nice post fdesilva and welcome on the forum!
Yeah it could be! I was imagining it in kinda similar way - spiritual and metaphysical world. Then whilst our brain is living it is kinda "ruling" the spiritual world where no metaphysical laws apply, and then once our brain dies (we die physically) then pure spirituality takes over. But were you referring to NDEs only or life in general (any brain activity) ? Yes it's interesting how these 2 worlds interact. But then - does it mean that a physical world is NOT necessary for spiritual world to exist? Angels or other beings do not need physical body and laws. But we do. And, until our physical bodies live our purely spiritual bodies (i call em purely spiritual koz our brain has conscience etc which shows spirit) are as if "dead" and dorming; only wake up once we die. But - what are these spiritual bodies? The RESULT of brain chemistry, or completely another entities? Now would it be possible to have a being (e.g. human) with free will and all that but have metaphysical brain only and no spirit? Would he have conscience and all that? Or is it logically impossible (that the complexity in brain chem and that IS the actual soul/spirit)?

[fdesilva]

Hi madscientist
I think the most important question that we need to ask ourselves is: Can our whole conscious experience be a result of pure physical and chemical activity in the brain? I have asked myself this question for many years and have come to the conclusion that this is impossible. What I mean is given the current understanding of properties of materials it cannot bring about our subjective experience of consciousness. Let me try to give a hint of my line of thought.
1. Firstly the very first thing that a person knows/experiences is consciousness.
2. Everything that the person gets to know depends on the persons consciousness.
3. Thus all of humanities knowledge depends on the consciousness of individuals.
Now what is the most basic conscious experience.
Consider watching the screen on your computer.
There is 2 distinct components involved in this experience.
1. The computer screen
2. The “I” or me that is watching it.
Now what we need to see is can this experience be fully explained by activities in the brain.
Without a doubt component 1 the computer screen is inside our brain, or to put it another way something out there sends light to our eyes, that then get transformed in nerve impulses within the brain, that the “I” /me sees to be a computer screen. However what is the most baffling part to this experience is what are the events in the brain that form the “I”/me.
Let me point out some observations that lead me to conclude that it is impossible for the “I”/me to be physical.
Firstly our subjective experience of the “I”/me is that of a single entity at any given instant in time. Now if “I”/me were made of a multitude of particles in the brain then by its very nature these particles are forming an instantaneous connection with each other via it giving rise to “I”/me. We know from Special Relativity that there can be no instantaneous connection between particles. So this is not possible.
Further consider the physical brain. If you magnify it a billion times all you will see is much water molecules within which are other molecules. Now practically every molecule will be separated from other molecules by water molecules as well as much empty space. Now what I am getting at is if “I”/Me is a result of brain activity then the “I”/me would have to be present in any soup of molecules. Besides every sub collection of this soup will also qualify for having an “I”/me. In summary the conclusion that I am making is that if consciousness is a result of pure chemistry it would mean that everything is conscious even a piece of rock. Your thoughts?

[madscientist]

Nice post fdesilva! yes exactly what i thought! ONly i had some different points. My first was that non-living can't make living. If all is non-living - molecules and all that and is just result of elementary particles then not even an infinitely complex system of that should be able to make something which is living. True, it could be a robot, even something that is capable of making "decisions" like a computer when it gives a random thing (or play a computer game etc) but it could not do it consciously, could not have the image of self and not ability to feel or - suffer/have pleasure.
So then you say brain and its chem is only limited - but then the true nature in that immense miracle lies in the spiritual world? Could be!

Now a question which bothered me was this: if we made a copy of our being - have all the particles atoms molecules and all (i.e. including memories and nature and all as all must be coded in a chemical/metaphysical nature) then would this being have free will and would it be "living"? From a biological point yes; all creatures with complex brains are capable of this. But then is is possible to make a complex being and yet have it exempt from that? now that's the question! Looks like no.
BUT - if that being had a self conscience and all that, where does the actual sense come from? Is it the RESULT of it all, or is it the SOUL? And how many such "souls" could one create? Infinity?
And yes as for the rock - doesn't have a complex brain chem and such system but yeah! if bacteria and things are living but less complex - don't have a soul. But animals are in the middle - have feelings, even some have intelligence but they are not classified as humans and are not judged. Even dogs for example - some are dumb, some are nice, some agressive etc. Looks as if behavior was part of brain and genetics and that but are not jusged for biting thier master or doing something bad. Humans, we are. Now where one draws the line?

Hm i had some more thoughts about this but not time to post em all this is sufficient for now. Anyway - nice to have found someone with whom i can talk bout such things! Not many people i know are interested in spending their time thinking about nature of reality and being and such things. For 'em it's a waste of time; they think doing more "rational" things is what should be done. But one needs to question life, and if it is one's interest - why not do it?

[B. W.]

Hi madscientist
I think the most important question that we need to ask ourselves is: Can our whole conscious experience be a result of pure physical and chemical activity in the brain? I have asked myself this question for many years and have come to the conclusion that this is impossible. What I mean is given the current understanding of properties of materials it cannot bring about our subjective experience of consciousness. Let me try to give a hint of my line of thought....

Further consider the physical brain. If you magnify it a billion times all you will see is much water molecules within which are other molecules. Now practically every molecule will be separated from other molecules by water molecules as well as much empty space. Now what I am getting at is if “I”/Me is a result of brain activity then the “I”/me would have to be present in any soup of molecules. Besides every sub collection of this soup will also qualify for having an “I”/me. In summary the conclusion that I am making is that if consciousness is a result of pure chemistry it would mean that everything is conscious even a piece of rock. Your thoughts?

If all was materialism and psychical properties of chemistry then all human beings would have carbon copy personalities and thought processes. However, this is not the case. We each have our own unique personality and thought processes that make us - us.

Simon and Garfunkel cannot be right — “I am a Rock — I am an Island….”

Rocks and dirt have no life. Chemicals do not have life. These cannot write songs and sing. God gives life as a gift. Use it for his glory!
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[fdesilva]

Nice post fdesilva! yes exactly what i thought! ONly i had some different points. My first was that non-living can't make living. If all is non-living - molecules and all that and is just result of elementary particles then not even an infinitely complex system of that should be able to make something which is living. True, it could be a robot, even something that is capable of making "decisions" like a computer when it gives a random thing (or play a computer game etc) but it could not do it consciously, could not have the image of self and not ability to feel or - suffer/have pleasure.
So then you say brain and its chem is only limited - but then the true nature in that immense miracle lies in the spiritual world? Could be!

Now a question which bothered me was this: if we made a copy of our being - have all the particles atoms molecules and all (i.e. including memories and nature and all as all must be coded in a chemical/metaphysical nature) then would this being have free will and would it be "living"? From a biological point yes; all creatures with complex brains are capable of this. But then is is possible to make a complex being and yet have it exempt from that? now that's the question! Looks like no.
BUT - if that being had a self conscience and all that, where does the actual sense come from? Is it the RESULT of it all, or is it the SOUL? And how many such "souls" could one create? Infinity?
And yes as for the rock - doesn't have a complex brain chem and such system but yeah! if bacteria and things are living but less complex - don't have a soul. But animals are in the middle - have feelings, even some have intelligence but they are not classified as humans and are not judged. Even dogs for example - some are dumb, some are nice, some agressive etc. Looks as if behavior was part of brain and genetics and that but are not jusged for biting thier master or doing something bad. Humans, we are. Now where one draws the line?

Hm i had some more thoughts about this but not time to post em all this is sufficient for now. Anyway - nice to have found someone with whom i can talk bout such things! Not many people i know are interested in spending their time thinking about nature of reality and being and such things. For 'em it's a waste of time; they think doing more "rational" things is what should be done. But one needs to question life, and if it is one's interest - why not do it?

I think a complex system of molecules can explain fully the life of a plant or bacteria. However it cannot fully explain consciousness as experienced by humans. Maybe dogs and other life forms have a consciousness similar to ours, if so then that also would have to be a result of something supernatural. What I am saying is the conscious experience can never be made from putting together molecules. So if you were to make a carbon copy of a person, unless God also intervenes every time you do that and infuse a soul, that body will not get consciousness. It will be like an unconscious person.

Have a read of my post called "concept A" and also
http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=8600

Its rather long but love to know your thougts.

[B. W.]

...I think a complex system of molecules can explain fully the life of a plant or bacteria. However it cannot fully explain consciousness as experienced by humans. Maybe dogs and other life forms have a consciousness similar to ours, if so then that also would have to be a result of something supernatural. What I am saying is the conscious experience can never be made from putting together molecules. So if you were to make a carbon copy of a person, unless God also intervenes every time you do that and infuse a soul, that body will not get consciousness. It will be like an unconscious person.

Have a read of my post called "concept A" and also
http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=8600

Its rather long but love to know your thougts.

Hi fdesilva,

Looks like you need help on the Dawkins site. You are brave and need our prayers to attempt to speak to prejudice people there.

Next, try using prejudice as an example proof of consciousness. Why do they believe what they believe and use that to prove that prejudice is proof of consciousness. Blend prejudice and ask why they hate any concept of God and why others do not. They'll give you many reasons and then use the intolerance card by using their own answers against them. This is tricky to do.

I would then suggest that God allows freedom to reason 'and even disagree' so that each person can come into-their-own-to except God or reject God. God allows reason. They appear not to allow reason by proof of intolerance and forcing their views on the masses. Who do they wish to serve? Mirror their anti-God rhetoric right back at them.

Next, I may pop in and give you some support but I do not know what good I can do with such people that are on that Forum.

I would ask questions like this in a slow methodical manner one frame at a time:

1-How many of you take vacations?

2-How much planning goes into that vacation? Hotel rooms, campsite, travel, things to do, cost, etc and etc.

3-It is funny how we spend more time planning our vacations than we do about planning for eternity, yet eternity exist.

Do not expect great breakthroughs with such people — plant seeds of doubt instead.
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[Gman]

I think a complex system of molecules can explain fully the life of a plant or bacteria. However it cannot fully explain consciousness as experienced by humans. Maybe dogs and other life forms have a consciousness similar to ours, if so then that also would have to be a result of something supernatural. What I am saying is the conscious experience can never be made from putting together molecules. So if you were to make a carbon copy of a person, unless God also intervenes every time you do that and infuse a soul, that body will not get consciousness. It will be like an unconscious person.

Good point fdesilva.... I've often thought that the soul, spirit or consciousness of the person is simply energy (or charged particles). In fact, I believe that our brains produce so much electricity that it can actually light a light bulb. So when we die that energy is simply released back out to space again. In fact, energy is all around us... You really can't put it under a microscope to examine it, but we know it is there.

My beliefs anyways... How weird it may sound.

[madscientist]

I think a complex system of molecules can explain fully the life of a plant or bacteria. However it cannot fully explain consciousness as experienced by humans. Maybe dogs and other life forms have a consciousness similar to ours, if so then that also would have to be a result of something supernatural. What I am saying is the conscious experience can never be made from putting together molecules. So if you were to make a carbon copy of a person, unless God also intervenes every time you do that and infuse a soul, that body will not get consciousness. It will be like an unconscious person.

But then what is the conscience - and why is it still controlled by neurones and all that? It all makes sense - that putting a bunch of non-living stuff together even in an infinitely complex way should by no way give rise to something living - not only living like a bacterium but conscious! That is the miracle of [higher] life. The thing is, we feel consciosness or conscience as us, what we see (perceive rather) but then also our point. We get a stimulus, e.g. a dog outside but then we make judgments and associate feelings. Good, bad? Pretty, ugly? We have that judgment and feeling/emotion. Without conscience these would be impossible. We would be able to say in a robotic way "big, small, ugly, fat" but would not "feel the meaning of words". Now that's another thing that consciousness/conscience means for me.
The thing with the C copy is interesting though... hm so that's how it is called after all yeah but - if it were exactly the same it means it would also have the same memories and all as all would be coded in some metaphysical way. BUT! this is the trick - would it be a free, independent entity from myself if it were my copy? And what would he feel like? me? or some other person? I know this all sounds crazy but again this brings me to the question "why am i who i am"? why am i not someone who lived 1000 yrs ago and was born somewhere else? Then it should mean that someone/something (what we call God) gives rise to the new "us" and who we are. We have no choice, but could I be someone else if God wanted me to? And would I behave like that person? probably, if i had his genetic information and that. But that's off-topic...

Good point fdesilva.... I've often thought that the soul, spirit or consciousness of the person is simply energy (or charged particles). In fact, I believe that our brains produce so much electricity that it can actually light a light bulb. So when we die that energy is simply released back out to space again. In fact, energy is all around us... You really can't put it under a microscope to examine it, but we know it is there.

Hm maybe not so weird Gman! energy - which then is the spiritual world? Maybe. But is the metaphysical energy the same as the spiritual one? Only God knows all this...