A response to the "No Death Before the Fall" article

[Kurieuo]

There was no death before the fall and plenty after. this is clear by the whole concept of death and it uglines.

Why did God reduce the age of humanity? Without physical death, greater ugliness would abound.

Ultimately I see it comes down to God never intended our physical world He created to be perfectly harmonious. If He did, then it would be. Our temporary world is just but one stage where we are refined through trial and hardship at the end of which lies something much greater where neither physical death nor pain exist.

I feel I have offered up solid Biblical arguments and reasoning. I am happy to simply disagree on this matter without any further resolution between us as Christ is ultimately what matters.

God did make the world perfect. It was human sin/rebellion/hate that brought a end to the perfect world and instead it only maintains itself until the new world.

I only see in Scripture that God's creation is 'good' and 'very good'. Can you point me to a passage stating God created the world 'perfect'?

Think of what 'perfect' actually means. If God created the world perfect, would not the world have to be 'God'? Such a belief logically lends itself to a Panthiesm and Eastern religions.

Christian opponents I think are correct to point out if God created the world perfect then it is a bit strange how it became corrupted by a perfect creation.

Better to believe I think that while God created a world that is generally good and pleasing, it was also created to be temporal with a purpose towards something better and eternal.

[BavarianWheels]

There was no death before the fall and plenty after. this is clear by the whole concept of death and it uglines.

Why did God reduce the age of humanity? Without physical death, greater ugliness would abound.

Ultimately I see it comes down to God never intended our physical world He created to be perfectly harmonious. If He did, then it would be. Our temporary world is just but one stage where we are refined through trial and hardship at the end of which lies something much greater where neither physical death nor pain exist.

I feel I have offered up solid Biblical arguments and reasoning. I am happy to simply disagree on this matter without any further resolution between us as Christ is ultimately what matters.

God did make the world perfect. It was human sin/rebellion/hate that brought a end to the perfect world and instead it only maintains itself until the new world.

I only see in Scripture that God's creation is 'good' and 'very good'. Can you point me to a passage stating God created the world 'perfect'?

Think of what 'perfect' actually means. If God created the world perfect, would not the world have to be 'God'? Such a belief logically lends itself to a Panthiesm and Eastern religions.

Christian opponents I think are correct to point out if God created the world perfect then it is a bit strange how it became corrupted by a perfect creation.

Better to believe I think that while God created a world that is generally good and pleasing, it was also created to be temporal with a purpose towards something better and eternal.

I would respectfully disagree with this. By definition God is perfect. Anything God does is perfect. Creating this world as, "and it was good" in light of God's qualities is therefore perfect. It is my belief that God created the earth and it's first inhabitants in perfect order. They were perfectly given the ability to choose. It is sin that has altered God's perfect work. To say God did anything in less-than-perfect fashion, is (to me) a slap in God's face. The plan was laid out prior to creation, but that didn't keep God from doing His best work...as it is all He can do.
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[zoegirl]

But you must still define "perfection" with regards to the creation. For instance....does it mean 100% energy efficient? No entropy? What about the "wasteful" production of millions of pollen grains and sperm cells that will never pollinate or fertilize an egg? Does this indicate imperfection?

What about the death of leaves in the fall? THe *designated* death of cells in the development of a human fetus to develop fingers and toes? The death of skin cells and intestinal cells? The planned death of neurons in the brain? The planned death of xylem cells in tree trunks?

POint is, our definition of perfection is finite. We really have absolutely NO IDEA of what the pre-fall conditions would have been like with regards to excesses and waste. What we view as "imperfect" could be part of God's infinitely wise design that, to us, seems wasteful.

I think ultimately, it was *good* because GOD established it as good, planned, purposed.

Do I think the creation is under the curse? Absolutely....Can we really understand what this means from a physiological and operative level? I highly doubt it.

[Canuckster1127]

I'm still waiting for somone to answer the original question of pointing to the Scripture where the claim of a "perfect" creation before the fall is established.

[BavarianWheels]

I'm still waiting for somone to answer the original question of pointing to the Scripture where the claim of a "perfect" creation before the fall is established.

It's probably in that same text where God removed the Sabbath...
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[Robert Byers]

What about those flesh-ripping teeth found in the earth that when we put the pieces back together seem to indicate some flesh-eating species?

These teeth are from creatures that lived after the fall. These creatures in fact owe their fossilization to the actions of the flood. They were swept up or engrossed by sediment and all of it was pressurized into a state of stone.
cheers
Robert Byers

So are you saying T-Rex was a contemporary of Noah?
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Yes. The pre-flood world is the one where dinos ruled. dinos are only discovered because they were encased in flood sediment. Before the flood it was a more unclean world. Dinos were unclean animals. Noah was to change this by taking seven pairs of clean and only two pairs of unclean.
Rob Byers

So where did he put the unclean T-rex couple in the ark? Must've been a bit difficult to contain them, don't you think?
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The size of dinosaurs misrepresents them. Dinos came in all sizes. The Ark simply had small t-rex or young ones.
Rob Byers

[Robert Byers]

I'm still waiting for somone to answer the original question of pointing to the Scripture where the claim of a "perfect" creation before the fall is established.

It has always been interpretated by Christianity that when God says good it means perfect. We know there was no death of living beings with breath etc. It was to be eternal. Adam had to keep the garden so there was some unperfectness but otherwise paradice suits the account.
Rob Byers

[Canuckster1127]

I'm still waiting for somone to answer the original question of pointing to the Scripture where the claim of a "perfect" creation before the fall is established.

It has always been interpretated by Christianity that when God says good it means perfect. We know there was no death of living beings with breath etc. It was to be eternal. Adam had to keep the garden so there was some unperfectness but otherwise paradice suits the account.
Rob Byers

1. It has not always been interpreted by Christianity of Judaism for that matter that in this context good means perfect. In fact, as has been stated and shown before in the original article, the very fact that a differentiation between "good" and "very good" speaks to degrees of evaluation and not absolutes.

2, We do not know there was no death of living beings with breath. That is the question being posed. Repeating the claim without the requested scriptural backing adds nothing to the discussion.

3. By your own admission Adam kept the garden and therefore you admit imperfection. Being a "little imperfect" is like being a little bit pregnant. It's either perfect or it is not.

4. The original question remains. Please present a scripturally based defense for that claim of no death in the garden before the fall.

[Canuckster1127]

I'm still waiting for somone to answer the original question of pointing to the Scripture where the claim of a "perfect" creation before the fall is established.

It's probably in that same text where God removed the Sabbath...
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Sarcasm?

If that's the best you can represent your claim to a question of support, that is up to you.

[Gman]

I would respectfully disagree with this. By definition God is perfect. Anything God does is perfect. Creating this world as, "and it was good" in light of God's qualities is therefore perfect. It is my belief that God created the earth and it's first inhabitants in perfect order. They were perfectly given the ability to choose. It is sin that has altered God's perfect work. To say God did anything in less-than-perfect fashion, is (to me) a slap in God's face. The plan was laid out prior to creation, but that didn't keep God from doing His best work...as it is all He can do.
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Best explained here....

Was the original creation perfect?

Quote: "It should be noted that the Bible never says that original creation was perfect. It is described as being good, and very good, but never "perfect." How does one determine what God's perfect creation would look like? It turns out that young earth creationists have assumed that God would not have been able to create any world less than "perfect" - based upon biblical descriptions of the millennial kingdom and the new creation. Unfortunately, the Bible never indicates that either the millennial kingdom or the new creation represent the state of the original creation. In fact, the Bible indicates that this creation was not created to be perfect, but is only a partial representation of that which is to come, which will be perfect. The new creation will be the perfect tabernacle - the city "whose architect and builder is God", which will not be of this creation. Old earth creationists agree that the creation was perfect for the purpose for which it was created. However, the Bible indicates that the purpose of creation is not what has been claimed by young earth creationists."

http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/paradise.html

[Gman]

Also, Romans 8:22 states that decay came before Adam....

Romans 8:20-22

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

[BavarianWheels]

I'm still waiting for somone to answer the original question of pointing to the Scripture where the claim of a "perfect" creation before the fall is established.

It's probably in that same text where God removed the Sabbath...
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Sarcasm?

If that's the best you can represent your claim to a question of support, that is up to you.

Knowing there is no such scripture, I answered in the same manner in which you asked your "question of support." I feel it falls in the same line as the ellusive missing link where God or Jesus removed the blessing and the precept given at creation. There is no such text much like there is no such text that says God's creation was perfect.

To ask for Scriptural proof of God's work being perfect is another slap in God's face. Apparently there are some Christians that believe God/Jesus can do anything in a less than perfect manner. I'm assuming you are one of these believers.
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[Canuckster1127]

I'm still waiting for somone to answer the original question of pointing to the Scripture where the claim of a "perfect" creation before the fall is established.

It's probably in that same text where God removed the Sabbath...
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Sarcasm?

If that's the best you can represent your claim to a question of support, that is up to you.

Knowing there is no such scripture, I answered in the same manner in which you asked your "question of support." I feel it falls in the same line as the ellusive missing link where God or Jesus removed the blessing and the precept given at creation. There is no such text much like there is no such text that says God's creation was perfect.

To ask for Scriptural proof of God's work being perfect is another slap in God's face. Apparently there are some Christians that believe God/Jesus can do anything in a less than perfect manner. I'm assuming you are one of these believers.
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Taking out the personal elements of those comments which I'll simply attribute to frustration on your part, you might want to consider the implications of your comments taken to their logical extreme.

You're equating "perfect" which is not stated in the Scriptures as meaning no death. What's your basis for doing that? What does the fall do to your claims here? God is omnipotent and omniscient, right? Therefore, God knew when he created Satan that he would fall and further God knew when he created this world and man that man would fall. Does that threaten your faith? Yet you define the creation as "perfect", a word God didn't use and further you define that "perfection" as equal to the future state of Heaven and Earth in the future with the finished work of Christ.

It appears to me, that as you're the one making the greater claim in that regard the onus is upon you to support those positions with Scripture and not simply with what you appear to want to believe in terms of how you think God should have done it.

Maybe you can address the issues this time without attacking those challenging you. That's up to you however.

Blessings,

Bart

[B. W.]

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Kiel and Delitzsch Commentary Of OT write this regarding Genesis 1:31:

The creation of man and his installation as ruler on the earth brought the creation of all earthly beings to a close (Gen_1:31). God saw His work, and behold it was all very good; i.e., everything perfect in its kind, so that every creature might reach the goal appointed by the Creator, and accomplish the purpose of its existence. By the application of the term “good” to everything that God made, and the repetition of the word with the emphasis “very” at the close of the whole creation, the existence of anything evil in the creation of God is absolutely denied, and the hypothesis entirely refuted, that the six days' work merely subdued and fettered an ungodly, evil principle, which had already forced its way into it. The sixth day, as being the last, is distinguished above all the rest by the article - השּׁשּׁי יום "a day, the sixth” (Gesenius, §111, 2a).

Now here is something else to consider:

Genesis 1:31, “And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.” JPS

When the Genesis account points out that at the beginning of creation God made everything 'very good,' simply means that everything was ready to go, that every creature would reach a goal as designed, that the life creation had was set and ready to roll.

There is a problem when well meaning people try to say God made everything perfect in the beginning as meaning only absolute perfection. This mistake comes by equating what we call perfect and neglects what God calls perfect.

We have the bible and it reveals that such absolute perfection comes when the new heavens and earth come into being. What happened from the sixth day of creation till then reveals how God will achieve perfection. In the beginning of creation, God set it all in motion and that is what why the Genesis account tells it was 'very good.' It was ready to unfold.

This unfolding process is revealed in God's own character and nature. Every thing God created shouts out His glory and his glory is Himself — all that He is. Without gaining a glimpse of this, a person will miss what creation is about: God revealing Himself.

1 John 4:8 makes the statement that — God's nature is one that loves. True agape love lets the one loved come into his or her own. God's nature of love will let one love freely in return or let them reject that love - even abuse this love.

To prove that God is true to His nature of love, He gave certain beings intelligence in order to come into their own. They would be free to reject God's love or accept it. This also proves God to be all powerful as He demonstrates He can work through all things — all powerfully. This was 'very good''in the sight of God and is recorded in Genesis 1:3.

Next

Look at Ezekiel 28:13-15 and you will discover there was another being in the Garden of Eden — the serpent, known as an angel of light, a cherub. This reveals how and why evil came into existence.

Ezekiel 28:13-15, “You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. 14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.” ESV

This being was perfect, meaning God's nature of love let's one come into their own, he fashioned this being with intelligence and despite knowing all things, still let this one come into 'their' own state: love and serve the Lord or Reject God completely. This proves God's equity, justice, love, mercy, all powerfulness, etc and etc.

God is not man so absolute annihilation is out of the question as that would disprove God being merciful, truly just, absolutely equitious, as well as negates being all powerful. God would not be true to Himself and therefore has another way — that will take time, that will trap and ensnare this being and all his followers rightly, fairly, justly etc and etc.

Notice what verse 15 says: “You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.”

Unrighteousness was found in this being. God did not put it there. It was found. This creature walked before God and understood God's nature and then used God's own nature and character to his own advantage. This Cherub knew he could get away with rebellion and reject God for a time and does everything in order to disprove God being all that the Lord is in order to disprove God — make God not true to Himself and then:

Isaiah 14:13-15, “You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.” ESV

God's great unfathomable love lets one come into one's own. Love also punishes and holds to account or it is not love. Love does not deny justice. Love builds and removes dross so the pure remains and seals it for a later perfection without any possibility of rebellion.

As for the rebellious, these are thus punished forever because they have learnt to tempt and test God by continually attempting to entice God to act contrary to who he is. Thus, the rebellious, in eternity as eternal beings, can never be let into heaven and, instead, finally come into their own in a place God prepared for the devil and his followers — forever.

Conclusion:

Genesis 1:31, “And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.” JPS
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[Canuckster1127]

There is a problem when well meaning people try to say God made everything perfect in the beginning as meaning only absolute perfection. This mistake comes by equating what we call perfect and neglects what God calls perfect.

Bingo.

This is an example, in my opinion, of what happens when we take a western, greek linear point of view and superimpose it upon the language and terminology of an eastern, hebraic, holistic passage.

I believe God did create everything "perfect" in the sense that all was in place for what He determined to be both the purpose and the means of his plan and will with regard to mankind and His creation. There's a purpose and an end to that plan which results in a heaven and earth purged and redeemed by the work and sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Taking the position that this existed prior to the fall carries with it some disturbing implications and questions that I believe are right to ask.

1. It begs the question that if all God is seeking to do in terms of the history of this universe and mankind is restore things to where they once were, then how is it that and omipotent, omniscient God allowed things to "get out of hand" in the first place to where that was necessary?

2. It requires more than just a sense of what we think should be in terms of how God should have done things, it requires tangible proof and a clear message within the Scriptures to establish that premise and has been noted, at least in terms of the idea that paradise was "perfect" in the sense of without death, without any form of physical degeneration, then that simply isn't there.

I think what is suggested is that God has had a plan and is moving toward the fullness, or maturity of that plan (which is another more relevant sense of the word perfect than how it's being used in this situation).

I don't think we have the ability to fully comprehend that plan and all that is at work within it, because I think a great deal of it ties into the person of God and his attributes which extend beyond our finite ability to completely tie together. I suspect a great deal of it does in fact tie into God's choice in giving mankind a measure of free will and by so doing having to allow for, at least in the temporal sense, options that go contrary to God's greater inevitable will and conclusion to mankind and this universe. So again, we come to place where we have to take what we know, admit what we don't know and be willing to embrace a certain measure of mystery.

There's more detail that can be gone into on this and I think a strong measure of it ties into Platonic concepts in the greek philosophical world that were not present nor involved, nor would they have even been a fleeting concern to the original Hebrew audience that read and preserved this inspired portion of Scripture. In other words, we're trying to frame things in a way by asking questions that they wouldn't have asked and which weren't even slightly in their minds.