A response to the "No Death Before the Fall" article

[Canuckster1127]

Well good. I'm glad we can talk through something anyway and come to an understanding and agreement.

I think you've got it.

God is not the author of sin. He cannot be. However, He has created this universe and this world in such a way that sin is possible. I agree with you that that ties into free choice to some degree, although I'll restate, I don't think we are capable of fully understanding all that is involved with it and simply framing it in those terms may be oversimplifying things.

Logically it does break down at some point. God is omniscient and omnipotent therefore even if He is not the author of sin, somehow, at some level, you have to say that even sin plays a role in God's perfect plan. I can't explain why that is the case. It seems self-contradictory. I lack the perspective of God and some of the characteristics of God that presumably would enable me to reconcile those thoughts. It's a mystery. Rather than continue to beat the matter to death the best path for me is to embrace mystery and take the cognative dissonance that those thoughts create and accept that these are elements of God's purpose that while seemingly in conflict nevertheless are both consistent with whom God is and what His plans and purposes are.

Or I may just be attempting to frame the question in a way that doesn't do the issue justice.

I don't want to enter into our previous discussion, but in the spirit you allude to it I would simply respond, there is certainly no reason that God couldn't declare and maintain the seventh day as especially Holy today as it was in the past to the nation of Israel. Our disagreement in that regard is over what in fact God has done and declared in this matter and we both, genuinely and sincerely have come to different conclusions, each believing the Scriptures to support our own position. That is an issue of our understanding of God's declaration and intent for the Church today, not an issue of either one of us discounting the holiness of God or His right to declare in either direction.

I believe there is every indication in the scripture and that it is supported by the evidence of the creation itself that death as a physical reality in terms of animals and plants was present in creation even before the fall. I believe that the fall had consequences within the creation itself. That is indicated by the introduction of things like weeds, hard labor etc.

I see all of this as consistent first in Scripture and then secondarily through science as necessary given the long periods of time that this world has been in existence.

That's what G-man was referring to by the way with his comment about death being necessary to avoid overpopulation. If plants and animals were reproducing and growing and yet no form of death occured either through plants being eaten or natural decay and loss of entropy etc. there would be a huge problem with populations growing and never decreasing. It's not an appeal to a direct passage in scripture teaching that, so much as it is an observation drawing a conclusion from the conditions being claimed by Young Earth Creationists and what that would have to mean if their theory were right.

There was death in the original garden before the fall. It's a question of degrees as to whether that involved just plants for food, carnivorous animals etc. To my mind the degree doesn't matter. If the appeal is to "perfection" in that western sense that we've discussed, then it's either all or nothing. If it's "perfection" however in that eastern sense that recognizes that God set in place natural cycles and self-sustaining systems which were already in place before the fall, even if the fall affected them negatively, then who are we to say that God's creative work even involving this physical creation with death to plants and animals is not fully in keeping with His plans and purposes?

God establishes that, not us.

[BavarianWheels]

Well good. I'm glad we can talk through something anyway and come to an understanding and agreement.

whew...me too.

I think you've got it.

God is not the author of sin. He cannot be. However, He has created this universe and this world in such a way that sin is possible. I agree with you that that ties into free choice to some degree, although I'll restate, I don't think we are capable of fully understanding all that is involved with it and simply framing it in those terms may be oversimplifying things.

Logically it does break down at some point. God is omniscient and omnipotent therefore even if He is not the author of sin, somehow, at some level, you have to say that even sin plays a role in God's perfect plan.

I agree it does play a part, but not by His will or design other than making a plan through it...I think we'd agree here too if I'm not restating your intention.

I can't explain why that is the case. It seems self-contradictory. I lack the perspective of God and some of the characteristics of God that presumably would enable me to reconcile those thoughts. It's a mystery. Rather than continue to beat the matter to death the best path for me is to embrace mystery and take the cognative dissonance that those thoughts create and accept that these are elements of God's purpose that while seemingly in conflict nevertheless are both consistent with whom God is and what His plans and purposes are.

I can't explain the intricacy's either.

Or I may just be attempting to frame the question in a way that doesn't do the issue justice.

I don't want to enter into our previous discussion, but in the spirit you allude to it I would simply respond, there is certainly no reason that God couldn't declare and maintain the seventh day as especially Holy today as it was in the past to the nation of Israel. Our disagreement in that regard is over what in fact God has done and declared in this matter and we both, genuinely and sincerely have come to different conclusions, each believing the Scriptures to support our own position. That is an issue of our understanding of God's declaration and intent for the Church today, not an issue of either one of us discounting the holiness of God or His right to declare in either direction.

I could agree with that.

I believe there is every indication in the scripture and that it is supported by the evidence of the creation itself that death as a physical reality in terms of animals and plants was present in creation even before the fall. I believe that the fall had consequences within the creation itself. That is indicated by the introduction of things like weeds, hard labor etc.

I see all of this as consistent first in Scripture and then secondarily through science as necessary given the long periods of time that this world has been in existence.

I see this too.

That's what G-man was referring to by the way with his comment about death being necessary to avoid overpopulation. If plants and animals were reproducing and growing and yet no form of death occured either through plants being eaten or natural decay and loss of entropy etc. there would be a huge problem with populations growing and never decreasing. It's not an appeal to a direct passage in scripture teaching that, so much as it is an observation drawing a conclusion from the conditions being claimed by Young Earth Creationists and what that would have to mean if their theory were right.

I would agree also. I guess I was reading his comment in light of human overpopulation...of which I see no reason to think God would introduce death of a human in the Garden of Eden as a natural result apart from the sin issue.

There was death in the original garden before the fall. It's a question of degrees as to whether that involved just plants for food, carnivorous animals etc. To my mind the degree doesn't matter. If the appeal is to "perfection" in that western sense that we've discussed, then it's either all or nothing. If it's "perfection" however in that eastern sense that recognizes that God set in place natural cycles and self-sustaining systems which were already in place before the fall, even if the fall affected them negatively, then who are we to say that God's creative work even involving this physical creation with death to plants and animals is not fully in keeping with His plans and purposes?

God establishes that, not us.

Certainly...my Adventist-hot-head is better understanding your position on "perfect" and I would agree.
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[Gman]

That's what G-man was referring to by the way with his comment about death being necessary to avoid overpopulation. If plants and animals were reproducing and growing and yet no form of death occured either through plants being eaten or natural decay and loss of entropy etc. there would be a huge problem with populations growing and never decreasing. It's not an appeal to a direct passage in scripture teaching that, so much as it is an observation drawing a conclusion from the conditions being claimed by Young Earth Creationists and what that would have to mean if their theory were right.

I would agree also. I guess I was reading his comment in light of human overpopulation...of which I see no reason to think God would introduce death of a human in the Garden of Eden as a natural result apart from the sin issue.

BW, while overpopulation may not be directly stated in the Bible I believe that God has setup death to actually support the ecosystems from the very beginning. When we look around we can see that our world is in a constant state of being recycled. It is all good... In fact even the bones in our bodies are in the perpetual state of being torn down and being rebuilt again. If not stagnation may occur. Just like trees, if they are not pruned, they will most likely die.

To me life is a test... It is temporary, soon to be over and replaced by the spiritual. One day it will become perfect, just as God is perfect.

[Robert Byers]

There was no problem of overpopulation. God clearly indicares until the fall all folks would live forever.
Therefore we can conclude that if earth got too small then we could colonize space. We could make our own flora/fauna on planets and by by this time we would not be comminicating from countries but from galaxies. This is surely why the universe is so big. big enough for all of mankind.
Rob byers

[Gman]

There was no problem of overpopulation. God clearly indicares until the fall all folks would live forever.

"The scriptural objections to the idea that Adam was created immortal are actually stronger than the scientific objections. First, before Adam sinned, God warned him not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In the warning, God told Adam that "in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die." However, not too long after, Adam did eat the fruit, but did not die that day, but lived until the age of 930 years. Either the death God was referring to was not physical death or the "day" God referred to was hundreds of years long. Since young earth creationists claim that the Hebrew word for "day" never refers to a long period of time, we shall assume that the death referred to in Genesis 2:16 was spiritual death and not physical death. Therefore, Adam died spiritually when he sinned, although his body continued to live for hundreds of years more.

The second problem for young earth creationists is what to do with God being so worried about Adam eating from the tree of life that He posted the cherubim with the flaming sword to block the way to the tree of life. If Adam already had eternal life then God wouldn't have cared that he would eat of the tree of life. It only makes sense if God did not want Adam to live eternally, since he had already died spiritually."

Source: http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth ... ortal.html

Therefore we can conclude that if earth got too small then we could colonize space. We could make our own flora/fauna on planets and by by this time we would not be comminicating from countries but from galaxies. This is surely why the universe is so big. big enough for all of mankind.
Rob byers

We are using the Bible as God's word, correct? God made man to live, multiply, and have dominion over the earth not mars... Genesis 1:28

[Robert Byers]

There was no problem of overpopulation. God clearly indicares until the fall all folks would live forever.

"The scriptural objections to the idea that Adam was created immortal are actually stronger than the scientific objections. First, before Adam sinned, God warned him not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In the warning, God told Adam that "in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die." However, not too long after, Adam did eat the fruit, but did not die that day, but lived until the age of 930 years. Either the death God was referring to was not physical death or the "day" God referred to was hundreds of years long. Since young earth creationists claim that the Hebrew word for "day" never refers to a long period of time, we shall assume that the death referred to in Genesis 2:16 was spiritual death and not physical death. Therefore, Adam died spiritually when he sinned, although his body continued to live for hundreds of years more.

The second problem for young earth creationists is what to do with God being so worried about Adam eating from the tree of life that He posted the cherubim with the flaming sword to block the way to the tree of life. If Adam already had eternal life then God wouldn't have cared that he would eat of the tree of life. It only makes sense if God did not want Adam to live eternally, since he had already died spiritually."

Source: http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth ... ortal.html

Therefore we can conclude that if earth got too small then we could colonize space. We could make our own flora/fauna on planets and by by this time we would not be comminicating from countries but from galaxies. This is surely why the universe is so big. big enough for all of mankind.
Rob byers

We are using the Bible as God's word, correct? God made man to live, multiply, and have dominion over the earth not mars... Genesis 1:28

The fall of man into death is so self evident what can you say.
Your trying to say adam could of died physically and gone to heaven.. Well then eve has problems.
Yes it was the spiritual death also but because Adam was too die spiritualy decay had to be introduced and so his body had too die also. The only way to move him into proper results of spiritual death. Therefore death was introduced into the world by the fall for the first time. Adam before his spiritual death could not have physical death.
The world today is dying to lead to a final destruction.
The bible expects the reader to understand that physical death had now been introduced new. It would be strange to have Adam dying physically ,going to heaven, and then sent back to be on earth as original mission.

The flaming sword was to stop Adam from living a eternal life physically and so in sin. Indeed perhaps also he might of had another chance to live spiritually eternal by eating. I never thought of that but it still is right thr traditional interpretation.

Saying man is to dominate earth is fine. It does not preclude taking that dominance and making other earths.
Surely the vastness of space implies its for spreading out.
It has to be that way.
Rob byers

[BavarianWheels]

The fall of man into death is so self evident what can you say.
Your trying to say adam could of died physically and gone to heaven.. Well then eve has problems.

I'm lost here...so I'll leave this alone.

Yes it was the spiritual death also but because Adam was too die spiritualy decay had to be introduced and so his body had too die also. The only way to move him into proper results of spiritual death.

I think I know what you're saying here, and I tend to agree that the death spoken of was both spritual and physical, spiritual being the immediate "death" and the physical as a result of decay, or age...seperated from God.

Therefore death was introduced into the world by the fall for the first time.

For the first time to Adam and/or Eve. Death existed in some form prior to human (Adam and Eve) death.

Adam before his spiritual death could not have physical death.
The world today is dying to lead to a final destruction.
The bible expects the reader to understand that physical death had now been introduced new.

I agree... I believe the intention of God creating Adam was for Adam to live eternally, however God being Omni--- made provision for sin prior to creation.

It would be strange to have Adam dying physically ,going to heaven, and then sent back to be on earth as original mission.

*Crickets* I'm lost on this one too.

The flaming sword was to stop Adam from living a eternal life physically and so in sin. Indeed perhaps also he might of had another chance to live spiritually eternal by eating. I never thought of that but it still is right thr traditional interpretation.

Are you saying the Tree of Life was literal? I'm not so sure of it being a literal "Tree of Life" or a literal "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" (I like capitalizing...) I believe they were symbols of that which God set them to be. I don't know that God made a tree that imparted eternal life by partaking of it's fruit...rather I would think that like the spilling of a lambs blood didn't save any person prior to the Lamb spilling His blood, it was a place (maybe) where the man and God would commune...being the center of the garden. (I'm not even sure how to explain my own thoughts here today.)

Saying man is to dominate earth is fine. It does not preclude taking that dominance and making other earths.
Surely the vastness of space implies its for spreading out.
It has to be that way.
Rob byers

Huh?
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[Gman]

The fall of man into death is so self evident what can you say.
Your trying to say adam could of died physically and gone to heaven.. Well then eve has problems.

I'm lost too... We are saying that Adam died spiritually not physically...

Yes it was the spiritual death also but because Adam was too die spiritualy decay had to be introduced and so his body had too die also. The only way to move him into proper results of spiritual death. Therefore death was introduced into the world by the fall for the first time. Adam before his spiritual death could not have physical death.
The world today is dying to lead to a final destruction.

The 2nd law of thermodynamics clearly states that the universe was designed to be temporary. It's not just the earth we are talking about here, we are talking about the entire universe. In other words what you are saying has no scriptural bases. For if Adam sinned, not only did the physical laws of the earth got changed but also the laws of the entire universe. This is not scripturally, physically, or spiritually sound...

Saying man is to dominate earth is fine. It does not preclude taking that dominance and making other earths.
Surely the vastness of space implies its for spreading out.
It has to be that way.
Rob byers

Ok, if God wanted man to not only dominate the earth but also other planets in the universe then why didn't he make them habitable for man? Do you know of any other habitable planets out there? Also, why didn't God say he wanted man to dominate the other planets as well then? Cannot God see into the future?

[Gman]

I would also like to add this verse. For it states that man was appointed (or arranged) to die once.

Hebrews 9:27, And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[B. W.]

…Plato's cave is a Western concept which is what I was alluding to earlier when I stated that we in the west look at things differently than how an eastern mindset, like the Hebrews have, looks at things.

We think in terms of "perfect" as meaning without any quality that we see as detrimental. We see "perfect" as meaning optimal, the epitomy of all it can be, with no flaws, no negative attributes. Of course, we then see that definition from our perspective, which may be God's perspective, but not necessarily.

The Hebrews see the idea of perfect meaning that it is whole, timely, completely suited to the purposes of God...

...I'm saying, wait a minute, this whole creation account is inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by Moses but it is written through a Hebrew to other Hebrews and this western idea of perfection or paradise is first of all, not in the text at all in terms of the word perfect and the idea that there was no death in the whole creation is a concept thrown back from a passage in Romans which was speaking primarily of Spiritual Death and not attempting to shed light on the Genesis creation account.

You are correct Canuckster. The western mindset is built upon the foundations of ancient Roman pragmatism with a blend of ancient Greek materialism.

Here are several Hebrew words translated as Perfect in our English text. I give the word than the Strong's number for your own reference:

tâmîym 8549 -- Means according to context it is used in bible:

1-complete, whole, entire, sound healthful (process of time)

2-(process of) soundness, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, regarding integrity, maturity...

3-what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact and / also the process this takes to become mature or make mature, whole, sound…

4-Lacking nothing in physical strength, beauty, etc - sound, wholesome - an ordinary, quiet sort of person that is complete, morally innocent, having integrity i.e. that is mature in all his ways whose end is soundness — maturity integrity..

Here are several scriptures verse where this word is used (all quotes from KJV unless otherwise noted):

The two verses below describes God as one who brings things to a mature, sound state through process of justice, faithfulness, justly, uprightly without any wrong doing.

Deu 32:4 - "The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he."

Psalm 18:30 - "As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried [smelts, refines, tests]: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him."

Next examples look at how the word is used of persons like King David — was King David perfect or still a sinner in the process of becoming mature, sound ruler? He even he sinned as a ruler and also the children of Israel were called to be perfect in God's sight so look at what these verses are saying as they mean process that lead to learning to be sound, whole, mature, upright, etc:

Psalm 18:32 - "It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect."

Deu 18:13 - "Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God."

This makes sense in the eastern mindset — perfect meaning process of becoming whole, complete, mature, etc.

Psalm 37:18 - "The LORD knows the days of the [Perfect] blameless (mature), and their heritage will remain forever..." ESV

In light of this add Paul's idea of becoming a New Man — walking in the Spirit not fulfilling the lust of the flesh, etc and the same eastern theme is present. When God called Job perfect - he meant Job would become sound, whole, mature through the process - hence God declaring Job righteous begins a process to reach a state that purifies and makes whole.

Next Hebrew Word

Now comes the next Hebrew word, shâlêm 8003 which coveys in its contextual meanings of -- Soundness, no untruth that makes and builds - complete safe(ty), peaceful, perfect, whole, full, in the sense of bringing or be at peace.

Deu 25:15 — “But thou shalt have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure shalt thou have: that thy days may be lengthened in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.”

Another Hebrew Word

Here is another Hebrew word -- 8552 tâmam conveys in its contextual meanings: Finished — completed the matured end state — reached the end of a entire whole cycle. Consumed for good or wasted for bad — the final state and purpose.

This word is closet to our English western definition of perfect, yet it denotes an entire process or growing season or the end of a cycle of time that either consumes for bad or good or wastes entirely. It includes this entire cycle within the eastern meaning something the western idea of perfect neglects.

Isaiah 18:5, “For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches.”

The Hebrew word for perfect — means an entire process, cycle, a wholistic process mindset that leads to a mature, sound, end result.

Now when the Lord God say's he is perfect — keep the right frame of reference and you'll see how God brings things into a mature, sound state through process of justice, faithfulness, justly, uprightly, righteously, mercifully, lovingly, etc & etc without any wrong doing to his creation as we think of wrong doing.

Note how this process plays out:

Romans 8:19-23, “For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies…” ESV

Revelations 21:1-6, “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." 5 And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 6 And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. “

Now when we go back to Genesis 1:31 we can now gain a small bit of insight into what it means: “And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.” ESV

God had a plan and everything fell into place as he foreseen and will bring it all to a sound mature state in due course of time.
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[Robert Byers]

Bavarianwheels
Not just man but all living things with breath or spirit. No animals or insects could die before the fall. They were perfect in a perfect world. Death was brought by mans rebellion and not a natural thing. The bible is clear animals only ate plants implying they would not eat each other.

Yes the tree of life was real. This is clear from scripture and that real efferts had to be made to keep folk from eating and living forever. On earth or spirtually. I guess it could nullify the eating of the fruit.
Robert bYers

[Robert Byers]

The fall of man into death is so self evident what can you say.
Your trying to say adam could of died physically and gone to heaven.. Well then eve has problems.

I'm lost too... We are saying that Adam died spiritually not physically...

Yes it was the spiritual death also but because Adam was too die spiritualy decay had to be introduced and so his body had too die also. The only way to move him into proper results of spiritual death. Therefore death was introduced into the world by the fall for the first time. Adam before his spiritual death could not have physical death.
The world today is dying to lead to a final destruction.

The 2nd law of thermodynamics clearly states that the universe was designed to be temporary. It's not just the earth we are talking about here, we are talking about the entire universe. In other words what you are saying has no scriptural bases. For if Adam sinned, not only did the physical laws of the earth got changed but also the laws of the entire universe. This is not scripturally, physically, or spiritually sound...

Saying man is to dominate earth is fine. It does not preclude taking that dominance and making other earths.
Surely the vastness of space implies its for spreading out.
It has to be that way.
Rob byers

Ok, if God wanted man to not only dominate the earth but also other planets in the universe then why didn't he make them habitable for man? Do you know of any other habitable planets out there? Also, why didn't God say he wanted man to dominate the other planets as well then? Cannot God see into the future?

No problem. Man would use his knowledge of earth to create/manipulate other planets for his use. The universe is for man. Surely we would not be stuck here. We now talk of expansion to space. If no dying and science had gone forward by this time we'd be everywhere.

Yes any thing wrong with the universe today that leads to decay is from the fall. All death/decay started then. The original universe is gone and only this is a reflection of it in its glory.
Rob byers

[Canuckster1127]

Bavarianwheels
Not just man but all living things with breath or spirit. No animals or insects could die before the fall. They were perfect in a perfect world. Death was brought by mans rebellion and not a natural thing. The bible is clear animals only ate plants implying they would not eat each other.

Yes the tree of life was real. This is clear from scripture and that real efferts had to be made to keep folk from eating and living forever. On earth or spirtually. I guess it could nullify the eating of the fruit.
Robert bYers

Robert,

I've noticed that you have a habit of simply repeating your claims without interacting in the discussion or providing evidence for your claims. You're wlecome to do as you see fit. It doesn't really contribute much however.

Bart

[BavarianWheels]

Bavarianwheels
Not just man but all living things with breath or spirit. No animals or insects could die before the fall. They were perfect in a perfect world. Death was brought by mans rebellion and not a natural thing. The bible is clear animals only ate plants implying they would not eat each other.

Yes the tree of life was real. This is clear from scripture and that real efferts had to be made to keep folk from eating and living forever. On earth or spirtually. I guess it could nullify the eating of the fruit.
Robert bYers

Wasn't it Satan's fall that really brought death...who knows how much "time" went by after this to Adam's day. Death came to man through Adam's sin, but death already existed through Satan's sin.

I believe the "tree" was real...my question is rather if the "tree" itself was the giver of eternal life or rather a symbol of taking the gift of life from God.
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[Gman]

No problem. Man would use his knowledge of earth to create/manipulate other planets for his use. The universe is for man. Surely we would not be stuck here. We now talk of expansion to space. If no dying and science had gone forward by this time we'd be everywhere.

Bob, you are not being realistic.. There are no other planets that are habitable for man in our known space. Sure man could erect a dome and try to live in a prison cell somewhere on a distant star, but why couldn't God have made a planet like ours with the same environmental conditions? Why would he bless some folks with an earthly environment, while leaving others to fend for themselves on some remote island?

Yes any thing wrong with the universe today that leads to decay is from the fall. All death/decay started then. The original universe is gone and only this is a reflection of it in its glory.
Rob byers

This proposes a problem for you then because the universe does in fact reveal that it was in decay long before man even stepped on the earth.

Source: http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/yeclaims.html