Oldest known human fossil found in Europe

[Himantolophus]

The explanation of evolution is just a attempt to explain however the bible is direct with a answer. Its good for bible believers and the rest. YEC is supported by making evolution have to hustle for a answer.

"Hustle for an answer"? Scientists came to this evolutionary conclusion completely independent from creation's explanation. It wasn't directed at creationists nor did creationists MAKE the evolutionists come up with their theory. Of course the Bible people can come up with their own theory just as easily as evolutionists can their own. To say that one directly caused the other is illogical.

If I were in the mood for assertions I could easily say that the creation explanation was a direct YEC response to evolution's explanation, not the other way around. Heck, I doubt anyone looked into Genesis that deeply until evolution came around!

Your not contesting number two is because thats not the contest.
Number three's a bit more pain is scientifically wrong I insist.
Number 4, Pain is not a characteristic of animals at birthing even if some have it in some percentage. Its a whole different matter.
number 5, contractions in animals i know nothing about. I just know birthing is quick and easy by and large for one offspring.
Number 6, i guess there could be a bit of pain before the fall but the point is the great chasm of difference after the curse and between woman and animals. The great segregation of the great pain and travail.
Number 7, The skeleton change is the logical conclusion as it cause the pain and evolution agrees it is the source of difference.

So... 1-3 are not a contest yet you keep stating them over and over again like they are? Why?

Points 4-5: you have not provided any sources refuting the fact that animals DO NOT experience pain so I'll have to accept that they do in lack of any evidence to the contrary.

Point 6: Earlier in this thread you kept asserting that there was NO PAIN before the Fall, and the other posters kept telling you that it was a INCREASE in EXISTING pain after the Fall. Are you actually accepting what they said?

Point 7: Evolution doesn't agree. The skeleton of Homo sapiens has been the same since the species appeared on Earth. There have been no morphological changes at all. Thus, the skeleton has been the same from the Beginning and so before the Fall it was the same. So where's the justification and evidence that there was no pain, or even LESS pain. To me, the pain should, and was, the same in our ancestors. Evolution supports this. Show me some pictures of Pre-Fall skeletons if they existed in some altered form. What form is less painful for humans? Were we monkeys before this Fall?

[Canuckster1127]

Sorry for the mistake on the name Robert.

I am very familiar with the subject. You guys are being introduced to a new subject. Likewise your unfamiliar with my name. Its robert. Unless you mean someone else here.

A claim to self as authority and a claim as to the familiarity with the subject of those challenging you is juvenile and counterproductive.

my references are what I told people to googgle. Nat geographic articles etc. I don't collect references anymore then i do for state capitals. Its simple work and I only suggest it when people question me about common topics.

Then google them and place them up. You're to do your own homework, not assume a role you've not been assigned and proclaim your mastery of a subject without evidence.

I don't need new info.

This smacks of arrogance and an unteachable spirit.

The links on pain in critters are silly and I've read a few before in the past. Posters here should make their own case in a few words and in which i don't doubt their integrity.

An evaluation without engaging and further demonstration of arrogance and an unteachable spirit. The issue of adhering to discussion guidelines is your issue, not the other posters.

We've been around the block anyways and the subject is exhausted.

You haven't passed the first house yet. You may want to get off the porch and start walking before telling us where you've been.

I leave it to the voters.

Robert, I've taken the time to google your involvement on other boards and frankly, it's not a stellar record. This board even though we are predominantly Old Earth Creationist, is giving you a lot more room than what you've been given on many of those, as evidenced by the fact that you're still here. Please consider the level of your involvment and interaction, read the guidelines and start adhering to them or you will likely want to post elsewhere. Consider this a formal warning and request from a moderator.

Regards,

Bart

[Himantolophus]

wow... I just Goggled his name and "creation" and found at least 6 boards where he is posting. I couldn't stand posting and keeping track of all of these topics. No wonder he has no time for research, he is making these absurd boasts all over the internet!

For all we know, he is just doing this to rile all of us up and he doesn't understand/believe inany of it.

[Robert Byers]

Himan
Skeletons? Creationists don't accept there are skeletons before our present state. Eve was the first woman with the pre-pain body. no fossils

Well about the multiply pains and posters here trying to say woman had pain.
The clear idea from God or as you see it from the human author is to reveal the unique birthpain of woman.
We know the pain and duration now and so can extrapolate back before there were these multiple increases in pain.
I conclude therefore there was no pain as such. A momentary prick like a slither gives would suffice to justify multiply from. Then the reason for the pain is a extreme condition of the body. Then animals do not have anything that can be called PAIN. words matter. So women would have what animals, like apes for example, have when giving birth. I remember a nat geographic article saying apes have no problem because of the female apes body.
So I don't accept the word pain is telling the tale of womens previous condition. Its abstract.
Anyways this is all besides the pont.
Our women uniquely have great agong and duration of same or close and so are so separated from the animal kingdom as one would think they are from another world. There is no female creature that has the Pain of our women.
This is what the bible points out was a punishment. The bible well predicts that animals will never be found with a comparable birthing problem. The bible is right on.
Evolution confirms there is a unique problem and hustles for a answer.
I mean evolution finds it and needs to explain it as they know everybody will see the unique pain as proof of a separate biology from animals and further confirm Genesis.
Whether or not evolutionists had Genesis in mind is not the point. Fighting the ancient creationist beliefs of the Christian world is always on their mind.

I insist the unique pain of our women is a great point for the accuracy of scripture and segregation from animals.
Pointing this out always hits a nerve. like here.
I do wish organized creationism made the subject a frontpiece issue. its a gain for us and a loss for the others.
They smell it too.
Rob byers

[Seraph]

Himan
Skeletons? Creationists don't accept there are skeletons before our present state. Eve was the first woman with the pre-pain body. no fossils

Well about the multiply pains and posters here trying to say woman had pain.
The clear idea from God or as you see it from the human author is to reveal the unique birthpain of woman.
We know the pain and duration now and so can extrapolate back before there were these multiple increases in pain.
I conclude therefore there was no pain as such. A momentary prick like a slither gives would suffice to justify multiply from. Then the reason for the pain is a extreme condition of the body. Then animals do not have anything that can be called PAIN. words matter. So women would have what animals, like apes for example, have when giving birth. I remember a nat geographic article saying apes have no problem because of the female apes body.
So I don't accept the word pain is telling the tale of womens previous condition. Its abstract.
Anyways this is all besides the pont.
Our women uniquely have great agong and duration of same or close and so are so separated from the animal kingdom as one would think they are from another world. There is no female creature that has the Pain of our women.
This is what the bible points out was a punishment. The bible well predicts that animals will never be found with a comparable birthing problem. The bible is right on.
Evolution confirms there is a unique problem and hustles for a answer.
I mean evolution finds it and needs to explain it as they know everybody will see the unique pain as proof of a separate biology from animals and further confirm Genesis.
Whether or not evolutionists had Genesis in mind is not the point. Fighting the ancient creationist beliefs of the Christian world is always on their mind.

Goodness, peering over these claims, and the last few pages, I can see that you, Robert, DESPERATLY need to provide links. People would be much more likely to consider what you say if you had evidence supporting you. Although you think you do, you don't know that pain during birth is unique in humans. You don't know that the skeletal makeup of women changed after the fall in a diabolical way to make women suffer. You can't make up an idea based on nothing but your own imagination and expect it to be true.

Also, you can't shoot down other peoples ideas without offering any arguements besides what you already stated before they refuted it. You're not right just because you say you are. I'm afraid to know what other forums you debate like this on, because when you have such a closed off stance when debating with a non christian, you are probably DAMAGING christianity's image.

I insist the unique pain of our women is a great point for the accuracy of scripture and segregation from animals.
Pointing this out always hits a nerve. like here.
I do wish organized creationism made the subject a frontpiece issue. its a gain for us and a loss for the others.

wow...

you need to get rid of the notion that you're right and everyone else is wrong. You seem to think that you're "opening people's eyes", but most people can see clear as day that you have nothing to base any claims on. Arguement's don't hit people's nerves if they're WRONG.

Nothing I am saying is gonna change anything I realize, and it's already been said before, but still, the last few pages are frustrating just to read.

[David Blacklock]

Hi Robert,

>>Our women uniquely have great agong...and are so separated from the animal kingdom as one would think they are from another world<<

Chimp DNA is 99% the same as human - if you count only coding DNA

>>Fighting the ancient Christian beliefs of Genesis is always on their [evolutionists'} minds<<

Evolutionists, like other scientists, merely follow the evidence. Other than that, I'm sure their minds wander around about what they're going to do this week-end with their families, just like everybody else.

DB

[zoegirl]

I've stopped posting here because....welll...my head hurts

[David Blacklock]

Wow! Those brick walls look painful!

[Himantolophus]

Skeletons? Creationists don't accept there are skeletons before our present state. Eve was the first woman with the pre-pain body. no fossils

So, there are no skeletal remains of pre-pain people before the Fall. What magical process prevented that? I don't know if I want to know. There are plenty of skeletons before our present state, unless that evidence is invisible to you.

Well about the multiply pains and posters here trying to say woman had pain.

they do, please move on

The clear idea from God or as you see it from the human author is to reveal the unique birthpain of woman.
We know the pain and duration now and so can extrapolate back before there were these multiple increases in pain.
I conclude therefore there was no pain as such. A momentary prick like a slither gives would suffice to justify multiply from. Then the reason for the pain is a extreme condition of the body.

And he's off ladies and gentleman... you've said all this a millions times, STOP!

If the human body has been the same from the beginning, then the condition of pain was the same from the beginning. Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary (of the skeletal change) I will NOT accept this babble.

Then animals do not have anything that can be called PAIN. words matter. So women would have what animals, like apes for example, have when giving birth. I remember a nat geographic article saying apes have no problem because of the female apes body.

For goodness sakes, post the flippin' article then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I don't accept the word pain is telling the tale of womens previous condition. Its abstract.

and the way you are looking at it is NOT abstract? lol

Anyways this is all besides the pont.
Our women uniquely have great agong and duration of same or close and so are so separated from the animal kingdom as one would think they are from another world. There is no female creature that has the Pain of our women.
This is what the bible points out was a punishment. The bible well predicts that animals will never be found with a comparable birthing problem. The bible is right on.

You've said all of this already... we are unique in this problem because we are the only UPRIGHT HOMINID on this planet. You don't need evolution or the Bible to see that.

Evolution confirms there is a unique problem and hustles for a answer. I mean evolution finds it and needs to explain it as they know everybody will see the unique pain as proof of a separate biology from animals and further confirm Genesis.
Whether or not evolutionists had Genesis in mind is not the point. Fighting the ancient creationist beliefs of the Christian world is always on their mind.

On the contrary, fighting the modern view of evolution is always been on the creationists mind. Evolutionists could care less about creation, it's the creationists who draw attention to themselves and so blow their movement way out of proportion to what it really is.

You still have not shown evidence that evolution's explanation came as a response to creation's.

I insist the unique pain of our women is a great point for the accuracy of scripture and segregation from animals.
Pointing this out always hits a nerve. like here.

the only thing that is hitting a nerve is the ridculously bad way you attempt to debate (if it's even called that).

I do wish organized creationism made the subject a frontpiece issue. its a gain for us and a loss for the others.
They smell it too.

it's not a frontpage issue because there is no issue. Even the creationists on this thread have no idea what you're trying to argue.

[Himantolophus]

Here's part of an interesting article that says that this "pain and agony" may be in our minds.
http://www.compleatmother.com/birth_pain.htm

Excerpt: “There is no physiological function in the body that gives rise to pain in the normal course of health. In few other animal species is the process of birth apparently associated with any suffering, pain or agony, except where pathology exists or in an unnatural state, such as captivity.

There are certain “primitive cultures” in which childbirth is looked forward to with joy and anticipation as something wonderful! Here one finds little evidence of suffering, pain or agony. Again, there is no other physiological process in our body that is painful under normal conditions except when
complicated by pathology, including fear and tension.

Any stress to the mother stimulates the adrenal glands to pour out catecholemines. As a result, muscle sphincters tighten down making uterine contractions less effective and sending blood away from the uterus to the arms and legs because stress and tension prepare the body for fight or flight. All of this prevents an adequate supply of oxygen to the big contracting
muscle-the uterus.

There are three muscle layers composing the uterus, the outer muscles contract to push the baby down, through and ultimately out of the uterus. The middle muscles contract to squeeze the blood out of the walls of the uterus and then relax to allow the blood vessels to fill up again with a fresh supply of
blood.

But when the inner circular muscles contract they close the outlet, maintaining the uterus in its unemptied shape. Thus, these inner circular muscles must be loose and relaxed when the long muscles contract to open the womb and push the baby out.

If a woman is frightened during labor this inner muscle layer contracts, then the muscles of the uterus and the muscles that hold it closed are working against each other.

Whenever there are two big groups of muscles working against each other they soon begin to hurt and in a short time the pain becomes very severe. We speak of this as the fear-tension-pain-syndrome of childbirth for a woman
who is afraid and unconsciously resisting the birth of her baby by tightening the circular uterine fibers which prevents the progress of the birth and increases muscle tension within the walls of the uterus.

This causes nearly all of the pains and distresses in otherwise normal labor. Which describes the labor of about ninety five women out of a hundred.” excerpt from Childbirth Without Fear by Grantly ****-Read, M.D

I have received many anecdotal reports from various countries that appear to show that in cultures such as the Bedouin or Pigmy, the birthing process is measured in minutes rather than hours. Here, extreme pain and distress are rarities, and the causes of such pain would be deemed unnatural. Such reports
seem to indicate that these observations have some validity, but further research is needed. There may be many other factors involved that are not obvious at first reporting. The author welcomes criticisms, suggestions and interest in partaking in
controlled trials. Funds are being sought for this purpose.

so there are places where childbirth is no problem. Maybe it has nothing to do with our skeletal system at all, but our brain?

[Canuckster1127]

On the contrary, fighting the modern view of evolution is always been on the creationists mind. Evolutionists could care less about creation, it's the creationists who draw attention to themselves and so blow their movement way out of proportion to what it really is.

I don't agree with that statement. There is a pretty broad spectrum even within creationists. Technically, a Theistic Evolutionist is a subcategory of creatrionist. What creationists, in general, respond to the most is the broad use of the word "evolution" which incorporates materialism or progressivism as a philosophy in effect piggy-backing upon the more narrow definition of evolution and drawing conclusions outside of science. Evolution as a science neither proves nor disproves the existence of God or His role in creation. It speaks to means or plausible means where the evidence itself is lacking.

Young Earth Creationists in the US have done a pretty effective job of defining creationism in the general population. Part of what I believe this board is here to do is to dispel that impression and demostrate that not all creationists are "young earth creationists" and further the Bible and Science are not mutually exclusive.

[Himantolophus]

I don't agree with that statement. There is a pretty broad spectrum even within creationists. Technically, a Theistic Evolutionist is a subcategory of creatrionist. What creationists, in general, respond to the most is the broad use of the word "evolution" which incorporates materialism or progressivism as a philosophy in effect piggy-backing upon the more narrow definition of evolution and drawing conclusions outside of science. Evolution as a science neither proves nor disproves the existence of God or His role in creation. It speaks to means or plausible means where the evidence itself is lacking.

I should have worded that better... Secular scientists could care less what YE creationists are doing. I agree most of those scientists believe in God and many can be Progressive creationists or theistic evolutionists even. I was responding to Robert's claim that evolution's explanations are put out to "disprove creationism and God", which is false. The two ideas come out with their own ideas completely independent of each other. Since their ideology is so different, evolution and YEC almost HAVE to act separate from each other!

Young Earth Creationists in the US have done a pretty effective job of defining creationism in the general population

which agrees with my statement that they like to draw attention to themselves despite the actual number of YEC "scientists". The fact that more than half of the country accepts YEC has alot to do with the level of education of the US populace. I'm sure only the minority of that statistic has actually studied evolution in any depth at all.

[Robert Byers]

Hi Robert,

>>Our women uniquely have great agong...and are so separated from the animal kingdom as one would think they are from another world<<

Chimp DNA is 99% the same as human - if you count only coding DNA

>>Fighting the ancient Christian beliefs of Genesis is always on their [evolutionists'} minds<<

Evolutionists, like other scientists, merely follow the evidence. Other than that, I'm sure their minds wander around about what they're going to do this week-end with their families, just like everybody else.

DB

Whats your point.?
If chimps are 99% then the fact that they don't have pain at birth suggests a great difference. The bible tells why.
Whats your point?
Rob byers

[Robert Byers]

Himan:
Did you read the excerpt about fear equals pain.
The article starts off by saying few. I say none, creatures have pain giving birth.
Then it goes on to make a absurd claim that pain comes fear and some cultures don't fear birthing therefore no pain.
Then commit to this concept, market it, and the world is your osyter.
Your presenting this quackery as a rubuttal to me?
Do you know anything about researching the science of birthpain?
Are you joking?
This is why creationism always prevails over evolutionism or other ism's that reject Genesis.
Especially after you fought me that our women were not unique in birthpain. Then you present a article that is premised on it.
I have the right to claim a victory on this discussion for the good guys.
Rob Byers

[Canuckster1127]

Himan:
Did you read the excerpt about fear equals pain.
The article starts off by saying few. I say none, creatures have pain giving birth.
Then it goes on to make a absurd claim that pain comes fear and some cultures don't fear birthing therefore no pain.
Then commit to this concept, market it, and the world is your osyter.
Your presenting this quackery as a rubuttal to me?
Do you know anything about researching the science of birthpain?
Are you joking?
This is why creationism always prevails over evolutionism or other ism's that reject Genesis.
Especially after you fought me that our women were not unique in birthpain. Then you present a article that is premised on it.
I have the right to claim a victory on this discussion for the good guys.
Rob Byers

Rob,

1. You have yet to prove your point that animals experience no pain in birth despite clear evidence that your claim is wrong which you have yet to refute by providing evidence of your own.
2. You ask if others know anything of researching when you've been asked repeatedly to show your research and you continue to ignore such calls.
3, You categorize all creationists apparently as young earth creationists again making broad sweeping claims at categorizations without demonstrating a basic understanding of what you are speaking of. Do you imagine that Old Earth Creationists and Theistic Evolutionists do not base their understandings in Genesis as well? Or do you imagine that only a YEC interpretation of Genesis equates to the Scripture itself?
4. You can claim victory all your wish. It doesn't make it so.

Perhaps a focus on conversing, responding to question posed to you, demonstrating some primary foundation for your claims and a willingness to give and take and learn in a conversation would carry you further than proclaiming victory without demonstrating your claims?

Have you read our discussion guidelines yet or do you need me to post them in their entirity for you?

What do you imagine happens to posters on a Discussion Board who ignore questions and requests from a moderator?

Regards,

Bart