I have heard that there is actually jewish christians.
If that is so should they not be called simply Chritians not Jewish Christians?
Jews
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AttentionKMartShoppers
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They say Christian Jew because Christian signifies their religion, and Jew signifies their heritage (you're Jew by birth, Christian by faith).
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."
He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin
-Winston Churchill
An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.
You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous
He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin
-Winston Churchill
An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.
You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous
-
Anonymous
About the Jewish Peoples not being able to eat pork because God said not to. When Noah offered God burnt offerings god smiled and promised to never again flood the world, he also said Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that lives will be food for you. As the green herb, I have given everything to you.
did someone say that this is the scripture that does not appear in the torah?
did someone say that this is the scripture that does not appear in the torah?
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Felgar
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With regards to the Mormons, what he's getting at is that he doesn't see any distinction between Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ. My knowledge about this is fairly limited, but a quick background as I know it: In the 1500's (or thereabouts) Joseph Smith created Mormonism as a spinoff of Christianity. He claimed to have been divinly inspired by God - providing a restoration of the 'true' church of Jesus Christ; a revival of what he saw as a Christian religion that had become corrupted and no longer served the truth.vvart wrote:Can someone answer my last post, I don't want him to think he's right, yet I'm only able to provide half answers to some of his questions since he's hiding behind hebrew.
Also I'm not aware of the Mormon stuff he's talking about, anyone know anything about this David Koresh?
So your friend is asking, why do we think Jesus and his Apostles were sent and ordained by God to establish Christianity, but Joseph Smith was not? Well for one, Joseph Smith never claimed to be God - and even if he did, he didn't back it up by rising from the dead and raising others from the dead. Second, Joseph Smith is not referenced in a great many OT prophecies (I'm not versed enough to speak to specifics here). But probably the most important thing is that Jesus did NOT sin - he upheld the entire law of the OT, and did nothing to contradict it. This is how we know that Jesus is special; he upheld the Father's law and in doing so did not contradict any part of the Bible and its teachings. He referenced old scripture repeatedly, and further exclaimed, "I did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it."
This fundamental difference can also be applied to David Koresh. He was the leader of the cult in Waco Texas who's compound was eventually surrounded and destroyed in a standoff in the early '90's (can't remember exact date). Koresh also claimed to be Jesus, but there are a few key things. First he was sleeping with most of his followers, including underage girls. Second at the end he was basically holding everyone hostage, and whom he could, he convinced to commit suicide. Those thigns alone are enough to recognize that this man was not sinnless and was clearly not even close to understanding God's Word. In fact, it's audacious and frankly very insulting that your friend would even attempt to compare the two.
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Anonymous
Here's yet another rebuttal against christianity of which I don't understand:
"These are Moses last words:
Moses' Song
32:1 Listen heaven! I will speak! Earth! Hear the words of my mouth!
32:2 My lesson shall drop like rain, my saying shall flow down like the dew - like a downpour on the herb, like a shower on the grass.
32:3 When I proclaim God's name, praise God for His greatness.
32:4 The deeds of the Mighty One are perfect, for all His ways are just. He is a faithful God, never unfair; righteous and moral is He.
32:5 Destruction is His children's fault, not His own, you warped and twisted generation.
32:6 Is this the way you repay God, you ungrateful, unwise nation? Is He not your Father, your Master, the One who made and established you?
32:7 Remember days long gone by. Ponder the years of each generation. Ask your father and let him tell you, and your grandfather, who will explain it.
32:8 When the Most High gave nations their heritage and split up the sons of man, He set up the borders of nations to parallel the number of Israel's descendants.
32:9 But His own nation remained God's portion; Jacob was the lot of His heritage.
32:10 He brought them into being in a desert region, in a desolate, howling wasteland. He encompassed them and granted them wisdom, protecting them like the pupil of His eye.
32:11 Like an eagle arousing its nest, hovering over its young, He spread His wings and took them, carrying them on His pinions.
32:12 God alone guided them; there was no alien power with Him.
32:13 He carried them over the earth's highest places, to feast on the crops of the field. He let them suckle honey from the bedrock, oil from the flinty cliff.
32:14 [They had] the cheese of cattle, milk of sheep, fat of lambs, rams of the Bashan, and luscious fat wheat. They drank the blood of grapes for wine.
32:15 Jeshurun thus became fat and rebelled. You grew fat, thick and gross. [The nation] abandoned the God who made it and spurned the Mighty One who was its support.
32:16 They provoked His jealousy with alien practices; made Him angry with vile deeds.
32:17 They sacrificed to demons who were non-gods, deities they never knew. These were new things, recently arrived, which their fathers would never consider.
32:18 You thus ignored the Mighty One who bore you; forgot the Power who delivered you.
32:19 When God saw this, He was offended, provoked by His sons and daughters.
32:20 He said:
I will hide My face from them, and see what will be their end. They are a generation which reverses itself and cannot be trusted.
32:21 They have been faithless to Me with a non-god, angering Me with their meaningless acts. Now I will be unfaithful to them with a non-nation, provoking them with a nation devoid of gratitude.
32:22 My anger has kindled a fire, burning to the lowest depths. It shall consume the land and its crops, setting fire to the foundations of mountains.
32:23 I will heap evil upon them, striking them with My arrows.
32:24 [They will be] bloated by famine, consumed by fever, cut down by bitter plague. I will send against them fanged beasts, with venomous creatures who crawl in the dust.
32:25 Outside, the sword shall butcher boys, girls, infants, white-headed elders, while inside, there shall be terror.
32:26 I was prepared to exterminate them, to make their memory vanish from among mankind.
32:27 But I was concerned that their enemies would be provoked, and their attackers alienated, so that they would say, 'Our superior power and not God, was what caused all this.'
32:28 But they are a nation who destroys good advice, and they themselves have no understanding.
32:29 If they were wise, they would contemplate this, and understand what their end will be.
32:30 How could one [man] pursue a thousand, or two [men], ten thousand, if their Mighty One had not given them over, and God had not trapped them?
32:31 Their powers are not like our Mighty One, although our enemies sit in judgment.
32:32 But their vine is from the vine of Sodom and the shoot of Gomorrah. Their grapes are poison grapes; their grape cluster is bitterness to them.
32:33 Their vine is serpents' venom, like the poison of the dreadful cobra.
32:34 But it is concealed with Me for the future, sealed up in My treasury.
32:35 I have vengeance and retribution, waiting for their foot to slip. Their day of disaster is near, and their time is about to come.
32:36 God will then take up the cause of His people, and comfort His servants. He will have seen that their power is gone, with nothing left to keep or abandon.
32:37 [God] will then say: Where is their god, the power in which they trusted?
32:38 [Where are the gods] who ate the fat of their sacrifices and drank the wine of their libations? Let them now get up and help you! Let them be your protector!
32:39 But now see! It is I! I am the [only] One! There are no [other] gods with Me! I kill and give life! If I crushed, I will heal! But there is no protection from My power!
32:40 I lift My hand to heaven and say: I am Life forever.
32:41 I will whet My lightning sword and grasp judgment in My hand. I will bring vengeance against My foes, and repay those who hated Me.
32:42 I will make My arrows drunk with blood, My sword consuming flesh. The enemy's first punishment will be the blood of the slain and wounded.
32:43 Let the tribes of His nation sing praise, for He will avenge His servants' blood. He will bring vengeance upon His foes, and reconcile His people [to] His land.
Its an endless cycle of disobeying, suffering, and being returned. It happened in the time of the prophets, it happened with the greeks, with the romans, with the ayrrians, with the babylonians, with the persians, it happned during the crusades, it happened during the black plague, it happened during the spanish inquisition, it happened during the Russian revolution with the Cossacks, it happened in 1935.
Its a cycle that will only stop once the messiach comes.
If you went purely on bible versus, you would have to say that god does indeed have hands, a back, a face, arms, a voice. But G-d is very clear on this subject....
4:1 Now, Israel, listen to the rules and laws that I am teaching you to do, so that you will remain alive and come to occupy the land that God, Lord of your fathers, is giving you.
4:2 Do not add to the word that I am commanding you, and do not subtract from it. You must keep all the commandments of God your Lord, which I am instructing you.
4:3 You have see with your own eyes what God did at the Baal Peor episode. God your Lord annihilated every person among you who followed Baal Peor.
4:4 Only you, the ones who remained attached to God your Lord, are all alive today.
4:5 See ! I have taught you rules and laws as God my Lord has commanded me, so [that you] will be able to keep them in the land to which you are coming and which you will be occupying.
4:6 Safeguard and keep [these rules], since this is your wisdom and understanding in the eyes of the nations. They will hear all these rules and say, 'This great nation is certainly a wise and understanding people.'
4:7 What nation is so great that they have God close to it, as God our Lord is, whenever we call Him?
4:8 What nation is so great that they have such righteous rules and laws, like this entire Torah that I am presenting before you today?
4:9 Only take heed and watch yourself very carefully, so that you do not forget the things that your eyes saw. Do not let [this memory] leave your hearts, all the days of your lives. Teach your children and children's children about
4:10 the day you stood before God your Lord at Horeb.
It was then that God said to me, 'Congregate the people for Me, and I will let them hear My words. This will teach them to be in awe of Me as long as they live on earth, and they will also teach their children.'
4:11 You approached and stood at the foot of the mountain. The mountain was burning with a fire reaching the heart of heaven, with darkness, cloud and mist.
4:12 Then God spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words, but saw no image; there was only a voice.
4:13 He announced to you His covenant, instructing you to keep the Ten Commandments, and He wrote them on two stone tablets.
4:14 At that time, God commanded me to teach you rules and laws, so that you will keep them in the land which you are crossing [the Jordan] to occupy.
4:15 Watch yourselves very carefully, since you did not see any image on the day that God spoke to you out of the fire at Horeb.
4:16 You shall therefore not become corrupt and make a statue depicting any symbol. [Do not make] any male or female image,
4:17 or the image of any animal on earth, any winged creature that flies in the sky,
4:18 any lower form of land animal, or any animal that lives in the water below the earth.
4:19 When you raise your eyes to the sky, and see the sun, moon, stars and other heavenly bodies, do not bow down to them or worship them. It was to all the [other] nations under the heavens that God made them a portion.
4:20 But you, God Himself took, and He brought you out of the iron crucible that was Egypt, so that you would be His heritage nation, as you are today.
4:21 God displayed anger at me because of your words, and He swore that I would not cross the Jordan, and that I would not come to the good land that God your Lord is giving you as a heritage.
4:22 I will die in this land and will not cross the Jordan, while you will be the ones to cross and occupy the good land.
4:23 Be careful that you not forget the covenant that God your Lord made with you. [Do not] make for yourself any statue image that is forbidden by God.
4:24 God your Lord is [like] a consuming fire, a God demanding exclusive allegiance.
Allegiance to God
4:25 When you have children and grandchildren, and have been established in the land for a long time, you might become decadent and make a statue of some image, committing an evil act in the eyes of God your Lord and making Him angry.
4:26 I call heaven and earth as witnesses for you today that you will then quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to occupy. You will not remain there very long, since you will be utterly destroyed.
4:27 God will then scatter you among the nations, and only a small number will remain among the nations to which God will lead you.
4:28 There you will serve gods that men have made out of wood and stone, which cannot see, hear, eat or smell.
4:29 Then you will begin to seek God your Lord, and if you pursue Him with all your heart and soul, you will eventually find Him.
4:30 When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, you will finally return to God your Lord and obey Him.
4:31 God your Lord is a merciful Power, and He will not abandon you or destroy you; He will not forget the oath He made upholding your fathers' covenant.
4:32 You might inquire about times long past, going back to the time that God created man on earth, [exploring] one end of the heavens to the other. See if anything as great as this has ever happened, or if the like has ever been heard.
4:33 Has any nation ever heard God speaking out of fire, as you have, and still survived?
4:34 Has God ever done miracles bringing one nation out of another nation with such tremendous miracles, signs, wonders, war, a mighty hand and outstretched arm, and terrifying phenomena, as God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes?
4:35 You are the ones who have been shown, so that you will know that God is the Supreme Being, and there is none besides Him.
4:36 From the heavens, He let you hear His voice admonishing you, and on earth He showed you His great fire, so that you heard His words from the fire.
4:37 It was because He loved your fathers, and chose their children after them, that [God] Himself brought you out of Egypt with His great power.
4:38 He will drive away before you nations that are greater and stronger than you, so as to bring you to their lands, and give them to you as a heritage, as [He is doing] today.
4:39 Realize it today and ponder it in your heart: God is the Supreme Being in heaven above and on the earth beneath - there is no other.
4:40 Keep His decrees and commandments that I am presenting to you today, so that He will be good to you and your children after you. Then you will endure for a long time in the land that God your Lord is giving you for all time.
Only Jews need to be Jewish.
Christans need to understand that Christianity does not stand up to any scrutiny from Jewish people. Just about every basic belief in Christianity is opposite of what Judaism is.
In Christainity, you need to believe, in Judaism belief means less than didly squat. Its relationships and actions that matter. You may notice that all curses and blessings that G-d speaks about are fairly concrete consequences. No where does it say, you will go to hell.
The first five books don't even explicitly mention an afterlife, because it is this life that is important, not the afterlife. Moses' place of death isn't even mentioned because we do not want to diefy people who have died.
As for Jesus sinning... He broke quite a few rules. But since you say he came to "fullfill" some new convenant, you'll just say those rules didn't matter anymore.
Rule 1. Listen to the Rabbis of your generation.
Rule 2. Do not add or subtract from the Torah.
Rule 3. Do not put a stubling block infront of the blind. (You appear to say that only through Jesus can you get to G-d, but G-d says clearly in the text I quoted that he is always close)
Rule 4. His relationship with his parents is questionable, as was the way he treated the elders."
"These are Moses last words:
Moses' Song
32:1 Listen heaven! I will speak! Earth! Hear the words of my mouth!
32:2 My lesson shall drop like rain, my saying shall flow down like the dew - like a downpour on the herb, like a shower on the grass.
32:3 When I proclaim God's name, praise God for His greatness.
32:4 The deeds of the Mighty One are perfect, for all His ways are just. He is a faithful God, never unfair; righteous and moral is He.
32:5 Destruction is His children's fault, not His own, you warped and twisted generation.
32:6 Is this the way you repay God, you ungrateful, unwise nation? Is He not your Father, your Master, the One who made and established you?
32:7 Remember days long gone by. Ponder the years of each generation. Ask your father and let him tell you, and your grandfather, who will explain it.
32:8 When the Most High gave nations their heritage and split up the sons of man, He set up the borders of nations to parallel the number of Israel's descendants.
32:9 But His own nation remained God's portion; Jacob was the lot of His heritage.
32:10 He brought them into being in a desert region, in a desolate, howling wasteland. He encompassed them and granted them wisdom, protecting them like the pupil of His eye.
32:11 Like an eagle arousing its nest, hovering over its young, He spread His wings and took them, carrying them on His pinions.
32:12 God alone guided them; there was no alien power with Him.
32:13 He carried them over the earth's highest places, to feast on the crops of the field. He let them suckle honey from the bedrock, oil from the flinty cliff.
32:14 [They had] the cheese of cattle, milk of sheep, fat of lambs, rams of the Bashan, and luscious fat wheat. They drank the blood of grapes for wine.
32:15 Jeshurun thus became fat and rebelled. You grew fat, thick and gross. [The nation] abandoned the God who made it and spurned the Mighty One who was its support.
32:16 They provoked His jealousy with alien practices; made Him angry with vile deeds.
32:17 They sacrificed to demons who were non-gods, deities they never knew. These were new things, recently arrived, which their fathers would never consider.
32:18 You thus ignored the Mighty One who bore you; forgot the Power who delivered you.
32:19 When God saw this, He was offended, provoked by His sons and daughters.
32:20 He said:
I will hide My face from them, and see what will be their end. They are a generation which reverses itself and cannot be trusted.
32:21 They have been faithless to Me with a non-god, angering Me with their meaningless acts. Now I will be unfaithful to them with a non-nation, provoking them with a nation devoid of gratitude.
32:22 My anger has kindled a fire, burning to the lowest depths. It shall consume the land and its crops, setting fire to the foundations of mountains.
32:23 I will heap evil upon them, striking them with My arrows.
32:24 [They will be] bloated by famine, consumed by fever, cut down by bitter plague. I will send against them fanged beasts, with venomous creatures who crawl in the dust.
32:25 Outside, the sword shall butcher boys, girls, infants, white-headed elders, while inside, there shall be terror.
32:26 I was prepared to exterminate them, to make their memory vanish from among mankind.
32:27 But I was concerned that their enemies would be provoked, and their attackers alienated, so that they would say, 'Our superior power and not God, was what caused all this.'
32:28 But they are a nation who destroys good advice, and they themselves have no understanding.
32:29 If they were wise, they would contemplate this, and understand what their end will be.
32:30 How could one [man] pursue a thousand, or two [men], ten thousand, if their Mighty One had not given them over, and God had not trapped them?
32:31 Their powers are not like our Mighty One, although our enemies sit in judgment.
32:32 But their vine is from the vine of Sodom and the shoot of Gomorrah. Their grapes are poison grapes; their grape cluster is bitterness to them.
32:33 Their vine is serpents' venom, like the poison of the dreadful cobra.
32:34 But it is concealed with Me for the future, sealed up in My treasury.
32:35 I have vengeance and retribution, waiting for their foot to slip. Their day of disaster is near, and their time is about to come.
32:36 God will then take up the cause of His people, and comfort His servants. He will have seen that their power is gone, with nothing left to keep or abandon.
32:37 [God] will then say: Where is their god, the power in which they trusted?
32:38 [Where are the gods] who ate the fat of their sacrifices and drank the wine of their libations? Let them now get up and help you! Let them be your protector!
32:39 But now see! It is I! I am the [only] One! There are no [other] gods with Me! I kill and give life! If I crushed, I will heal! But there is no protection from My power!
32:40 I lift My hand to heaven and say: I am Life forever.
32:41 I will whet My lightning sword and grasp judgment in My hand. I will bring vengeance against My foes, and repay those who hated Me.
32:42 I will make My arrows drunk with blood, My sword consuming flesh. The enemy's first punishment will be the blood of the slain and wounded.
32:43 Let the tribes of His nation sing praise, for He will avenge His servants' blood. He will bring vengeance upon His foes, and reconcile His people [to] His land.
Its an endless cycle of disobeying, suffering, and being returned. It happened in the time of the prophets, it happened with the greeks, with the romans, with the ayrrians, with the babylonians, with the persians, it happned during the crusades, it happened during the black plague, it happened during the spanish inquisition, it happened during the Russian revolution with the Cossacks, it happened in 1935.
Its a cycle that will only stop once the messiach comes.
If you went purely on bible versus, you would have to say that god does indeed have hands, a back, a face, arms, a voice. But G-d is very clear on this subject....
4:1 Now, Israel, listen to the rules and laws that I am teaching you to do, so that you will remain alive and come to occupy the land that God, Lord of your fathers, is giving you.
4:2 Do not add to the word that I am commanding you, and do not subtract from it. You must keep all the commandments of God your Lord, which I am instructing you.
4:3 You have see with your own eyes what God did at the Baal Peor episode. God your Lord annihilated every person among you who followed Baal Peor.
4:4 Only you, the ones who remained attached to God your Lord, are all alive today.
4:5 See ! I have taught you rules and laws as God my Lord has commanded me, so [that you] will be able to keep them in the land to which you are coming and which you will be occupying.
4:6 Safeguard and keep [these rules], since this is your wisdom and understanding in the eyes of the nations. They will hear all these rules and say, 'This great nation is certainly a wise and understanding people.'
4:7 What nation is so great that they have God close to it, as God our Lord is, whenever we call Him?
4:8 What nation is so great that they have such righteous rules and laws, like this entire Torah that I am presenting before you today?
4:9 Only take heed and watch yourself very carefully, so that you do not forget the things that your eyes saw. Do not let [this memory] leave your hearts, all the days of your lives. Teach your children and children's children about
4:10 the day you stood before God your Lord at Horeb.
It was then that God said to me, 'Congregate the people for Me, and I will let them hear My words. This will teach them to be in awe of Me as long as they live on earth, and they will also teach their children.'
4:11 You approached and stood at the foot of the mountain. The mountain was burning with a fire reaching the heart of heaven, with darkness, cloud and mist.
4:12 Then God spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words, but saw no image; there was only a voice.
4:13 He announced to you His covenant, instructing you to keep the Ten Commandments, and He wrote them on two stone tablets.
4:14 At that time, God commanded me to teach you rules and laws, so that you will keep them in the land which you are crossing [the Jordan] to occupy.
4:15 Watch yourselves very carefully, since you did not see any image on the day that God spoke to you out of the fire at Horeb.
4:16 You shall therefore not become corrupt and make a statue depicting any symbol. [Do not make] any male or female image,
4:17 or the image of any animal on earth, any winged creature that flies in the sky,
4:18 any lower form of land animal, or any animal that lives in the water below the earth.
4:19 When you raise your eyes to the sky, and see the sun, moon, stars and other heavenly bodies, do not bow down to them or worship them. It was to all the [other] nations under the heavens that God made them a portion.
4:20 But you, God Himself took, and He brought you out of the iron crucible that was Egypt, so that you would be His heritage nation, as you are today.
4:21 God displayed anger at me because of your words, and He swore that I would not cross the Jordan, and that I would not come to the good land that God your Lord is giving you as a heritage.
4:22 I will die in this land and will not cross the Jordan, while you will be the ones to cross and occupy the good land.
4:23 Be careful that you not forget the covenant that God your Lord made with you. [Do not] make for yourself any statue image that is forbidden by God.
4:24 God your Lord is [like] a consuming fire, a God demanding exclusive allegiance.
Allegiance to God
4:25 When you have children and grandchildren, and have been established in the land for a long time, you might become decadent and make a statue of some image, committing an evil act in the eyes of God your Lord and making Him angry.
4:26 I call heaven and earth as witnesses for you today that you will then quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to occupy. You will not remain there very long, since you will be utterly destroyed.
4:27 God will then scatter you among the nations, and only a small number will remain among the nations to which God will lead you.
4:28 There you will serve gods that men have made out of wood and stone, which cannot see, hear, eat or smell.
4:29 Then you will begin to seek God your Lord, and if you pursue Him with all your heart and soul, you will eventually find Him.
4:30 When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, you will finally return to God your Lord and obey Him.
4:31 God your Lord is a merciful Power, and He will not abandon you or destroy you; He will not forget the oath He made upholding your fathers' covenant.
4:32 You might inquire about times long past, going back to the time that God created man on earth, [exploring] one end of the heavens to the other. See if anything as great as this has ever happened, or if the like has ever been heard.
4:33 Has any nation ever heard God speaking out of fire, as you have, and still survived?
4:34 Has God ever done miracles bringing one nation out of another nation with such tremendous miracles, signs, wonders, war, a mighty hand and outstretched arm, and terrifying phenomena, as God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes?
4:35 You are the ones who have been shown, so that you will know that God is the Supreme Being, and there is none besides Him.
4:36 From the heavens, He let you hear His voice admonishing you, and on earth He showed you His great fire, so that you heard His words from the fire.
4:37 It was because He loved your fathers, and chose their children after them, that [God] Himself brought you out of Egypt with His great power.
4:38 He will drive away before you nations that are greater and stronger than you, so as to bring you to their lands, and give them to you as a heritage, as [He is doing] today.
4:39 Realize it today and ponder it in your heart: God is the Supreme Being in heaven above and on the earth beneath - there is no other.
4:40 Keep His decrees and commandments that I am presenting to you today, so that He will be good to you and your children after you. Then you will endure for a long time in the land that God your Lord is giving you for all time.
Only Jews need to be Jewish.
Christans need to understand that Christianity does not stand up to any scrutiny from Jewish people. Just about every basic belief in Christianity is opposite of what Judaism is.
In Christainity, you need to believe, in Judaism belief means less than didly squat. Its relationships and actions that matter. You may notice that all curses and blessings that G-d speaks about are fairly concrete consequences. No where does it say, you will go to hell.
The first five books don't even explicitly mention an afterlife, because it is this life that is important, not the afterlife. Moses' place of death isn't even mentioned because we do not want to diefy people who have died.
As for Jesus sinning... He broke quite a few rules. But since you say he came to "fullfill" some new convenant, you'll just say those rules didn't matter anymore.
Rule 1. Listen to the Rabbis of your generation.
Rule 2. Do not add or subtract from the Torah.
Rule 3. Do not put a stubling block infront of the blind. (You appear to say that only through Jesus can you get to G-d, but G-d says clearly in the text I quoted that he is always close)
Rule 4. His relationship with his parents is questionable, as was the way he treated the elders."
#1 jesus was a rabbi.
#2 if jesus is god then the torah is his to add or subtract from. He said he came not to change Mat 5:17 Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. As for not eating certain meats, that was changed way back in the days of Noah. Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herb.
#3 someone once explained that through judgement of the heart people can get to heaven, but christians don't just rely on this they have jesus to speak for them. the NT explains how hard it is for man to walk that path to god, and that with god all things are possible. God knows us best, he made an altimate sacrifice for the children of god. he gave them a role model.
#4 God made it clear he did not abide hypocrites, he did not enjoy those who only pray to look good for man, or those who only give to look good for man. Jesus said pray in secret, and you will have your reward.
god destroyed evil people without warning, ie the flood and sodom, perhaps after his promise to Noah that he would never flood the earth again, this is Gods final warning to the Children of God, and he delivered it himself. Was God saying there is no way man with only works of the heart to speak for htem,is rightious enough to enter into eternity with him. So he came to earth in the form of Jesus to share this wisdom, and to provide all his children with a final chance. You will only come to me through Jesus. It is said even as Jesus was dying on the cross he reminded himself being God to forgive them because they know not what they do.
#2 if jesus is god then the torah is his to add or subtract from. He said he came not to change Mat 5:17 Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. As for not eating certain meats, that was changed way back in the days of Noah. Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herb.
#3 someone once explained that through judgement of the heart people can get to heaven, but christians don't just rely on this they have jesus to speak for them. the NT explains how hard it is for man to walk that path to god, and that with god all things are possible. God knows us best, he made an altimate sacrifice for the children of god. he gave them a role model.
#4 God made it clear he did not abide hypocrites, he did not enjoy those who only pray to look good for man, or those who only give to look good for man. Jesus said pray in secret, and you will have your reward.
god destroyed evil people without warning, ie the flood and sodom, perhaps after his promise to Noah that he would never flood the earth again, this is Gods final warning to the Children of God, and he delivered it himself. Was God saying there is no way man with only works of the heart to speak for htem,is rightious enough to enter into eternity with him. So he came to earth in the form of Jesus to share this wisdom, and to provide all his children with a final chance. You will only come to me through Jesus. It is said even as Jesus was dying on the cross he reminded himself being God to forgive them because they know not what they do.
Last edited by Deborah on Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Church tradition tells us that when John, son of Zebadee and brother of James was an old man, his disciples would carry him to church in their arms.
He would simply say, “Little children, love one another”
After a time his disciples wearied at always hearing these same words and asked “Master why do you always say this?
He replied, “it is the Lords command, and if done, it is enough”
He would simply say, “Little children, love one another”
After a time his disciples wearied at always hearing these same words and asked “Master why do you always say this?
He replied, “it is the Lords command, and if done, it is enough”
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Kurieuo
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vvart,
I encourage you to search around Internet for answers, as I don't really have the time to keep debating your debate for you.
As for the rebuttal, it isn't much of one, and if you go over all I've written, it should be clear the main thrust of my arguments have been mianly dodged around and attention diverted to opinions on smaller issues of no real consequence. For example, an original accusation of his was that there were no grounds in the Jewish background for Jesus dying for our sins. This is far from true, and I think my responses demonstrate there is certainly a prerequisite (a foreshadowing) for such an act. Another point he entirely glimmed over is the question of how the Jewish people could recognise the Messiah without genealogy records? How can Messiah be traced back to David? He keeps diverting his attention to smaller tangent issues, and he is quite welcome to have the last say on such things as they are of little importance to me.
With regards to the Isaiah 9:6 passage, in the very next chaper (10:21) God uses the same Hebrew word (translated God), to refer to Himself. The Midrash Mishle makes things plain that the Messiah is called by eight names: Yinnon, Tzemah, Pele ["Miracle"], Yo'etz ["Counselor"], Mashiah ["Messiah"], El ["God"], Gibbor ["Hero"], and Avi 'Ad Shalom ["Eternal Father of Peace"] Is there someone else who is eternal other than God?
You may also be interested to read over the following page:The Rabbis' Dilemma: A Look at Isaiah 53
Kurieuo.
I encourage you to search around Internet for answers, as I don't really have the time to keep debating your debate for you.
As for the rebuttal, it isn't much of one, and if you go over all I've written, it should be clear the main thrust of my arguments have been mianly dodged around and attention diverted to opinions on smaller issues of no real consequence. For example, an original accusation of his was that there were no grounds in the Jewish background for Jesus dying for our sins. This is far from true, and I think my responses demonstrate there is certainly a prerequisite (a foreshadowing) for such an act. Another point he entirely glimmed over is the question of how the Jewish people could recognise the Messiah without genealogy records? How can Messiah be traced back to David? He keeps diverting his attention to smaller tangent issues, and he is quite welcome to have the last say on such things as they are of little importance to me.
With regards to the Isaiah 9:6 passage, in the very next chaper (10:21) God uses the same Hebrew word (translated God), to refer to Himself. The Midrash Mishle makes things plain that the Messiah is called by eight names: Yinnon, Tzemah, Pele ["Miracle"], Yo'etz ["Counselor"], Mashiah ["Messiah"], El ["God"], Gibbor ["Hero"], and Avi 'Ad Shalom ["Eternal Father of Peace"] Is there someone else who is eternal other than God?
You may also be interested to read over the following page:The Rabbis' Dilemma: A Look at Isaiah 53
Kurieuo.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Jac3510
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Hey vvart . . .
I've been reading this entire thread pretty closely, and there's really been nothing to add. The basic fact is that your Jewish friend simply does not comprehend the grace-based approach of Christianity. He is a legalist (as are all Orthodox Jews). He can't even see the grace in the OT. Here's the sad truth: his view of Judaism is NOT what God intended for the religion to be. He holds to the humanized version . . . the interpreted version based on the arguments of rabbi's throughout the centuries. This guy would have been one of the Pharisees spitting at Jesus.
If you really want to continue the discussion with him, I'd recommend that you get off the defensive. YOU don't have to prove anything. He will ALWAYS have questions because he simply doesn't accept your basic approach to OT interpretation. I'd recommend going on the offensive. Take the same approach Jesus did. He offered them only one sign . . . "the sign of Jonah." We can demonstrate that, historically speaking, Jesus died and rose from the dead. Was Jesus God? Well, look to His actions and His claims. He forgave sins. He healed the blind. He raised the dead. He accepted worship. He claimed that salvation came only by following Him (not even His laws!). He claimed that salvation came through and by Him alone. He claimed preexistence. He claimed sinlessness. These are things only God can do or claim.
Now, the Talmud argues that Jesus was a sorcerer, to which you can't give a better response than Jesus Himself did. If Satan casts out Satan, then he is divided amongst himself. Spiritual power comes from ONLY one of two sources: God or the devil.
When you get to all this, then, you have to ask yourself very simply: who was Jesus? He wasn't merely a prophet because He claimed divinity. He wasn't merely a good teacher because He claimed salvation came from Him alone. He wasn't merely a political Messiah because He had no political agenda. He wasn't merely a religious Messiah because He claimed authority over the Law. He was either a religious heretic or the Messiah. If He raised from the dead, He can only be the Messiah. So, put the pressure on him. Let this guy explain the facts around Jesus' death and resurrection away. That's his problem, not yours. And, if and when he rejects the Lord, you shake the dust off your feet, and do not "cast your pearls before the swine." Pray for him, and let God handle it.
Anyway . . . read up on some positive arguments for Christianity and use those instead. Don't let him put you on the defensive. You have nothing to answer for. He does. Modern Judaism can be shown to be lacking, and Christianity cannot be answered except unfounded disbelief or acceptance by faith. There are no middle grounds. You let God judge him for his choice.
God bless
I've been reading this entire thread pretty closely, and there's really been nothing to add. The basic fact is that your Jewish friend simply does not comprehend the grace-based approach of Christianity. He is a legalist (as are all Orthodox Jews). He can't even see the grace in the OT. Here's the sad truth: his view of Judaism is NOT what God intended for the religion to be. He holds to the humanized version . . . the interpreted version based on the arguments of rabbi's throughout the centuries. This guy would have been one of the Pharisees spitting at Jesus.
If you really want to continue the discussion with him, I'd recommend that you get off the defensive. YOU don't have to prove anything. He will ALWAYS have questions because he simply doesn't accept your basic approach to OT interpretation. I'd recommend going on the offensive. Take the same approach Jesus did. He offered them only one sign . . . "the sign of Jonah." We can demonstrate that, historically speaking, Jesus died and rose from the dead. Was Jesus God? Well, look to His actions and His claims. He forgave sins. He healed the blind. He raised the dead. He accepted worship. He claimed that salvation came only by following Him (not even His laws!). He claimed that salvation came through and by Him alone. He claimed preexistence. He claimed sinlessness. These are things only God can do or claim.
Now, the Talmud argues that Jesus was a sorcerer, to which you can't give a better response than Jesus Himself did. If Satan casts out Satan, then he is divided amongst himself. Spiritual power comes from ONLY one of two sources: God or the devil.
When you get to all this, then, you have to ask yourself very simply: who was Jesus? He wasn't merely a prophet because He claimed divinity. He wasn't merely a good teacher because He claimed salvation came from Him alone. He wasn't merely a political Messiah because He had no political agenda. He wasn't merely a religious Messiah because He claimed authority over the Law. He was either a religious heretic or the Messiah. If He raised from the dead, He can only be the Messiah. So, put the pressure on him. Let this guy explain the facts around Jesus' death and resurrection away. That's his problem, not yours. And, if and when he rejects the Lord, you shake the dust off your feet, and do not "cast your pearls before the swine." Pray for him, and let God handle it.
Anyway . . . read up on some positive arguments for Christianity and use those instead. Don't let him put you on the defensive. You have nothing to answer for. He does. Modern Judaism can be shown to be lacking, and Christianity cannot be answered except unfounded disbelief or acceptance by faith. There are no middle grounds. You let God judge him for his choice.
God bless
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
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Poetic_Soul
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Regardless of how you feel about the jews, the covenant with God still holds up with God. "I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you"....This is the Abraham covenant that still exist. This is the reason why America is blessed due to the fact that we are Israels ally. Israel is currently surrounded by its enemies yet no one can crumble that nation.....I wonder why. God must still be in love with them. Israel is just standing on the side lines, waiting for their Messiah. While the rest of us; that are in the game, are just waiting for His return.
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Felgar
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Chela,
Ok first you're right that animal sacrifice does not attone for sin... Even for the Jews, the sacrifices were merely a foreshadowing of what was to come (Jesus) and they are also saved by grace through faith and undoubtedly by Jesus' blood just as we are. For no man comes to the Father but by Him...
But your assertion that a) the Bible was changed long ago by some of the Jews, and b) that the Bible is heavily misinterpretted, and what follows that c) the Bible is not in and of itself truth... All of that is bogus and ill-concieved.
The Bible is the foundation of Christianity and were it not true, you may as well toss the whole thing. You can't claim something to be the Word of the God and then claim it's been corrupted - they just don't wash.
Additionally, do you understand why the whole faith collapses if Jesus was not born of a virgin? It is fundamental to all of Christianity that Jesus was not born of man, and was therefore not born into sin.
Ok first you're right that animal sacrifice does not attone for sin... Even for the Jews, the sacrifices were merely a foreshadowing of what was to come (Jesus) and they are also saved by grace through faith and undoubtedly by Jesus' blood just as we are. For no man comes to the Father but by Him...
But your assertion that a) the Bible was changed long ago by some of the Jews, and b) that the Bible is heavily misinterpretted, and what follows that c) the Bible is not in and of itself truth... All of that is bogus and ill-concieved.
The Bible is the foundation of Christianity and were it not true, you may as well toss the whole thing. You can't claim something to be the Word of the God and then claim it's been corrupted - they just don't wash.
Additionally, do you understand why the whole faith collapses if Jesus was not born of a virgin? It is fundamental to all of Christianity that Jesus was not born of man, and was therefore not born into sin.