marijuana/prostitution

[zoegirl]

That person essentailly becomes chattel when money is invovled. I cannot understand the fact that you don't get that. Two people flinging themselves at each other due to an attraction, affair, ....whatever means, they are still equal. They are exchanging the act freely to each other (as stupid as that may be and as hurtful as that may be).

In prostitution, the woman becomes an object, property, a warm body and nothing else. And quite frankly, that's why things like sexual harassment are also placed under some arena of the law. The one is under the power of the other.

And would we really entrust a women who was in all likelihood abused in her past relationships to rationality think through keeping her legs closed (an entirely odious and inappropriate phrase used by you) and saying that she is not under any sort of coercion?

And yes, diseases have increased dramatically with respect to the overall promiscuity of the nation. Pornography contributes to this overal degreadation of sexuality, cheapening it. Sex loses all its wonder, specialness. Women have become objects


And let's think about the legal ramifications. Would the madam or pimp become the CEO?!!? Wouldn't stop the abuse. Wouldn't stop the dieases from spreading (And that was my point from using the porn industry). And ultimatley we are talking about exploitation.

[Gman]

I guess you can afford to be sarcastic and antagonizing in your post(s). I can't so...I'll refrain from returning the favor.

I wasn't trying to be antagonizing, I was trying to raise questions to your argument...

Speeding and murder as laws serve a purpose. Murder because it means someone killed someone else who was not ready to die yet. Incidently, I would like to legalize planned deaths to those that wish it... Speed laws are useful because if there is no order on the highways it puts many other people involved in the same act (driving) in danger.

So moral laws don't protect life? How do you define death? Is it physical or spiritual?

Drug laws ONLY affect drug users. The law against drug use doesn't affect me because I don't use drugs of the illegal nature unless it is prescribed by a doctor in extreme situations (morphine...)

How do you know? Many people that murder or maim others claim sometimes that they were on drugs...

Laws against prostitution serve no purpose to those not willing to partake in it.

How do you know it doesn't affect others? Where is your proof?

If it was legalized and it then invites others who haven't partaken of prostitution because of it's question of legality, it then becomes THEIR problem...it still doesn't affect someone never having intentions to seek a prostitute.

Ok, so then if someone wants to kill themselves or cause problems for themselves we should let them do it? If you saw someone walking in the street and a car was about to hit them, would you push them away from the car or would you just watch it happen? After all, they may not be in a crossing zone.

Invites drug trafficking, murder, suicide, robberies...and the like...of course you understand alcohol does the same, yet you're not pushing to make alcohol illegal. Do you drink alcohol on a "moderate" basis. Interesting isn't it. Even if you don't, it's ok on one hand...not ok on the other?

Well first of all alcohol isn't classified as a "moral" person. It is a substance, not a human being...

Derrogatory statement against abused women?

I was referring to your remark about "women who can't seem to keep their legs closed and keep popping out children" that is very derogatory towards women... I don't think it is funny either...

Unfortunately it is a true problem. More kids = more income from Uncle Sam. You can make it out to be an ugly statement...doesn't make it any less true.

So we are back to money again...

Lawmakers/politicians do ONLY that which will aid their stay in government. Show me one honest politician and I'll show you one good liar.
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Nice... Very constructive thinking...

[BavarianWheels]

I guess you can afford to be sarcastic and antagonizing in your post(s). I can't so...I'll refrain from returning the favor.

I wasn't trying to be antagonizing, I was trying to raise questions to your argument...

I guess you're allowed to "raise" questions in that manner.

Speeding and murder as laws serve a purpose. Murder because it means someone killed someone else who was not ready to die yet. Incidently, I would like to legalize planned deaths to those that wish it... Speed laws are useful because if there is no order on the highways it puts many other people involved in the same act (driving) in danger.

So moral laws don't protect life? How do you define death? Is it physical or spiritual?

Ceasing to live. What does this have to do with the topic? There is nothing to protect. The act is between TWO CONSENTING ADULTS.

Drug laws ONLY affect drug users. The law against drug use doesn't affect me because I don't use drugs of the illegal nature unless it is prescribed by a doctor in extreme situations (morphine...)

How do you know? Many people that murder or maim others claim sometimes that they were on drugs...

How do I know drug laws don't affect me? LOL... Many people that murder or maim others also claim sometimes that they were drunk...but let's not argue the point to make alcohol illegal. *smirk*

Laws against prostitution serve no purpose to those not willing to partake in it.

How do you know it doesn't affect others? Where is your proof?

What "proof" do you want me to show that I'm not affected by laws against prostitution? Are you affected by the law? If so...

If it was legalized and it then invites others who haven't partaken of prostitution because of it's question of legality, it then becomes THEIR problem...it still doesn't affect someone never having intentions to seek a prostitute.

Ok, so then if someone wants to kill themselves or cause problems for themselves we should let them do it? If you saw someone walking in the street and a car was about to hit them, would you push them away from the car or would you just watch it happen? After all, they may not be in a crossing zone.

Yes...

I would try and "save" them. They have no right killing themselves in a manner that puts others in danger.

Again...I see you can afford to be concescending.

Invites drug trafficking, murder, suicide, robberies...and the like...of course you understand alcohol does the same, yet you're not pushing to make alcohol illegal. Do you drink alcohol on a "moderate" basis. Interesting isn't it. Even if you don't, it's ok on one hand...not ok on the other?

Well first of all alcohol isn't classified as a "moral" person. It is a substance, not a human being...

We aren't talking about the persons being illegal...we are talking about the act...if you can't understand that maybe you should bow out of the conversation.

Derrogatory statement against abused women?

I was referring to your remark about "women who can't seem to keep their legs closed and keep popping out children" that is very derogatory towards women... I don't think it is funny either...

Who was laughing? Again, it's only derogatory if it's untrue.

Unfortunately it is a true problem. More kids = more income from Uncle Sam. You can make it out to be an ugly statement...doesn't make it any less true.

So we are back to money again...

Again...money is the issue...have you not read zoegirl's posts? If you're not understanding the issues...you're just inserting rubbish.

Lawmakers/politicians do ONLY that which will aid their stay in government. Show me one honest politician and I'll show you one good liar.
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Nice... Very constructive thinking...

I can't help but notice the deafening silence on naming an honest politician.
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[BavarianWheels]

That person essentailly becomes chattel when money is invovled.

Only to themselves and the "profession"...not to the john. The prostitute is in control of what happens and what doesn't happen. There is a verbal contract on the exchange...both agreeing to the terms. There is no "slave" action in the truest sense of the word. She/he may act as a "slave" if that's what the john is paying for...

I cannot understand the fact that you don't get that. Two people flinging themselves at each other due to an attraction, affair, ....whatever means, they are still equal. They are exchanging the act freely to each other (as stupid as that may be and as hurtful as that may be).

Does the act of me purchasing a service from another make them my slave?

In prostitution, the woman becomes an object, property, a warm body and nothing else.

Correction...the woman becomes an object by her own will...and by consent with another party.

And quite frankly, that's why things like sexual harassment are also placed under some arena of the law. The one is under the power of the other.

There is no contract in sexual harassment...the two have not consented to anything...hence the use of the word "harassment".

And would we really entrust a women who was in all likelihood abused in her past relationships to rationality think through keeping her legs closed (an entirely odious and inappropriate phrase used by you) and saying that she is not under any sort of coercion?

Yet we will allow her to procreate? Yes, of course otherwise we'd make it illegal for her to bear children.

And yes, diseases have increased dramatically with respect to the overall promiscuity of the nation. Pornography contributes to this overal degreadation of sexuality, cheapening it. Sex loses all its wonder, specialness.

However much the contribution is that prostitution puts in is miniscule in light of all the promiscuity where there is no cash exchange. Pornography contributes ONLY TO THOSE THAT ARE INVOLVED OR PARTAKE OF THE MATERIAL. It has zero effect on everyone else.

Women have become objects

Women have put themselves in this "mess". Why does any woman, then, use make up...color their hair...shave legs...use lotion...tan their skin...style their hair...? Are they not "marketing" themselves if not solely for the "I can look good" factor? Whatever the reason (and I don't disagree with the reason) it's for the approval of others and men included.

And let's think about the legal ramifications. Would the madam or pimp become the CEO?!!? Wouldn't stop the abuse. Wouldn't stop the dieases from spreading (And that was my point from using the porn industry). And ultimatley we are talking about exploitation.

Not any more so than the cigarette companies selling their "drug" or the alcohol companies selling theirs... These companies aren't exploiting it's patrons? Let's open our eyes and see what's going on here. There is nothing worse in legalizing prostitution than allowing alcohol and cigarette companies to prosper on the backs of addicted persons...yet your silence on this matter styfles me...could it be because you partake of one or the other in some form regularly? (in general to all that oppose legalizing prostitution and remaining silent on cigarettes and alcohol.)
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[charlottecowell]

To be honest, they only real argument AGAINST legalising prostitution that's been put forward (IMO) is the fact that according to people I assume know better than I, the bible is said to forbid it, everything else is subjective.

Whether biblical tenets are the most practical, effective - or even moral - way of running a cosmopolitan society made up of both believers and non-believers is another matter...what's good for me in the comfort of my home may also be good (or at least, the 'best' option) for someone working in a brothel, but then again, it might not. I cannot be sure which, but I am sure the actual answer is neither black nor white and that there's a lot of hypocrisy regarding the nature of prostitution, which for at least some of the time IS between consenting adults in the same way that having an affair is. In fact, many prostitutes report feeling a definite power over the men who come to them.

When it comes to temptation into sin, I consider porn to be MUCH worse than prostitution (the idea of which repels most people, compared with porn, which on some level - even if only bared breasts in the morning paper - can be made to appeal to millions on a daily basis). I also think that wealthy men and women, for example, are far more likely to be targetted by money-hungry 'non prostitutes' in a way that's far more insidious and deceitful than actual prostitution....t

Other than that, the law is an ass, and an unequal ass at that, which does nothing to stop prostitution and little to tackle drug abuse but freely condones the use of alcohol which is proven to cause all kinds of problems on a societal and physical level (as well as being morally questionable when it comes to drunkeness), and also permits the production of hardcore porn and the opening of strip clubs!!! makes you wonder where the money's perceived to be coming from doesn't it? (naive to assume otherwise, I'm afraid. I'm not a Marxist by any stretch of the imagination but even I can see how economics determines such much about the world and its government)

There are just too many grey areas. Some people on here have said the women are victims, others have labelled them temptresses, but very few people in this debate seem willing to accept that prostitution is a market that will never, EVER go away until such times as we reach the promised land. As far as I can tell, for all the protestations, the only solution is to NOT legalize it but for law enforcers to turn a blind eye for 90% of the time while we all hope violence/kidnap and so on stay out of it.....

[Swamper]

However much the contribution is that prostitution puts in is miniscule in light of all the promiscuity where there is no cash exchange. Pornography contributes ONLY TO THOSE THAT ARE INVOLVED OR PARTAKE OF THE MATERIAL. It has zero effect on everyone else.

So if a man looks at pornography and his wife finds out, it has zero effect on their relationship?

[BavarianWheels]

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Some people making arguments against me may not realize that I am against prostitution. However, my thinking is that prostitution should be made legal if, 1. we, the "moral Christians", do not take a stand on other similar problems...two of which are alcohol and cigarettes. Silence is a statement too...it says you'd like to keep alcohol and cigarettes legal. Go figure. 2. Because it's a "normal" action between two adults both of which have consented to the contract. 3. It does no more harm to society than legal alcohol and legal smoking.

The reasoning for siding with "wine"?..."Jesus drank wine too..." Promotion of one "alleged" action and the tossing aside of another proven action/command is beside me. This is the reason I have said that some of you speak out of both sides of your mouths.

On the marijuana side...there is no evidence to show marijuana is worse than cigarettes. If anything, at least it has "healing" properties and removes pain or perception of pain in some instances...much like "wine" for a sour stomach...which is proposed for healing...much like marijuana...hey now...if wine can be legal and used for medicinal purposes...why can't marijuana?? I'll tell you why, it's because of the perception of the typical users who don't use it for medicinal purposes or use "little" (1 Timothy 5:23). I'm sure you all don't have that same perception of heavy drinkers because you have no quarrel with alcohol or cigarettes being legal. Interesting double-sidedness isn't it.
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[BavarianWheels]

However much the contribution is that prostitution puts in is miniscule in light of all the promiscuity where there is no cash exchange. Pornography contributes ONLY TO THOSE THAT ARE INVOLVED OR PARTAKE OF THE MATERIAL. It has zero effect on everyone else.

So if a man looks at pornography and his wife finds out, it has zero effect on their relationship?

You don't read and/or comprehend too well do you? It ONLY HAS EFFECT ON THOSE THAT PARTAKE OF IT...it has zero effect on a marriage that neither spouse partakes of it. And even on the marriage where the husband partakes and the wife finds out...it's effect is minimal depending on the amount and involvement.
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[Swamper]

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Some people making arguments against me may not realize that I am against prostitution. However, my thinking is that prostitution should be made legal if, 1. we, the "moral Christians", do not take a stand on other similar problems...two of which are alcohol and cigarettes. Silence is a statement too...it says you'd like to keep alcohol and cigarettes legal. Go figure. 2. Because it's a "normal" action between two adults both of which have consented to the contract. 3. It does no more harm to society than legal alcohol and legal smoking.

The reasoning for siding with "wine"?..."Jesus drank wine too..." Promotion of one "alleged" action and the tossing aside of another proven action/command is beside me. This is the reason I have said that some of you speak out of both sides of your mouths.

On the marijuana side...there is no evidence to show marijuana is worse than cigarettes. If anything, at least it has "healing" properties and removes pain or perception of pain in some instances...much like "wine" for a sour stomach...which is proposed for healing...much like marijuana...hey now...if wine can be legal and used for medicinal purposes...why can't marijuana?? I'll tell you why, it's because of the perception of the typical users who don't use it for medicinal purposes or use "little" (1 Timothy 5:23). I'm sure you all don't have that same perception of heavy drinkers because you have no quarrel with alcohol or cigarettes being legal. Interesting double-sidedness isn't it.
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I kind of agree on the marijuana thing. I don't use it, and probably never will, but if it can be beneficial in small amounts, I don't have a problem with it. I have heard that marijuana smoke is more cancerous than tobacco smoke though, even if THC isn't addictive like nicotine is.

However much the contribution is that prostitution puts in is miniscule in light of all the promiscuity where there is no cash exchange. Pornography contributes ONLY TO THOSE THAT ARE INVOLVED OR PARTAKE OF THE MATERIAL. It has zero effect on everyone else.

So if a man looks at pornography and his wife finds out, it has zero effect on their relationship?

You don't read and/or comprehend too well do you? It ONLY HAS EFFECT ON THOSE THAT PARTAKE OF IT...it has zero effect on a marriage that neither spouse partakes of it. And even on the marriage where the husband partakes and the wife finds out...it's effect is minimal depending on the amount and involvement.
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No need for the personal jab, I was just making an observation. And do you know for a fact that pornography has little or no effect on marriage? Because it was one of the major factors that led to my parents' divorce.

[Canuckster1127]

I've said all I have to say on the subject.

I accept Christians can differ in their views on this matter. It's too serious a matter in terms of the human cost for me as a Christian not to vote my conscience and influence society in this direction where I can. There are plenty of vices that are "legal" including alcohol abuse, porn or anything else one wants to add to the list. Arguing that because we can't construct a perfect society then anything should go, is not an argument that I accept nor can I accept as a rationale Christian. Because we lack the power to change all things does not relieve us of the responsibility to change those things for the better that we can.

I accept that the US, where I live now, is not a Christian nation. Nations are not Christian. People either are, or aren't. Expecting non-Christian's to behave as Christians is an unreasonable expectations and laws are going to be passed or not passed in a democracy.

I'll seek to influence where I can and trust God for the results. I'd rather see one person saved than 10 laws passed.

[BavarianWheels]

No need for the personal jab, I was just making an observation. And do you know for a fact that pornography has little or no effect on marriage? Because it was one of the major factors that led to my parents' divorce.

Once again...IT HAS NO EFFECT ON THOSE THAT DON'T TAKE PART IN IT. If it does...you have the burden of proof to show how something absent from a life affects it...and please don't say it affects our taxes and thus it affects everyone...that's not the effect we're speaking of here. If it has a "real" effect...is the question.

Sorry it lead to your parents divorce...but again at least one took part in it.
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[Swamper]

No need for the personal jab, I was just making an observation. And do you know for a fact that pornography has little or no effect on marriage? Because it was one of the major factors that led to my parents' divorce.

Once again...IT HAS NO EFFECT ON THOSE THAT DON'T TAKE PART IN IT. If it does...you have the burden of proof to show how something absent from a life affects it...and please don't say it affects our taxes and thus it affects everyone...that's not the effect we're speaking of here. If it has a "real" effect...is the question.

Sorry it lead to your parents divorce...but again at least one took part in it.
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That's my point: Only one person in the relationship has to take part in it and it will still effect the other person. I'm not arguing in this case for people who have no porn in their household whatsoever.

[BavarianWheels]

I've said all I have to say on the subject.

I accept Christians can differ in their views on this matter. It's too serious a matter in terms of the human cost for me as a Christian not to vote my conscience and influence society in this direction where I can. There are plenty of vices that are "legal" including alcohol abuse, porn or anything else one wants to add to the list. Arguing that because we can't construct a perfect society then anything should go, is not an argument that I accept nor can I accept as a rationale Christian. Because we lack the power to change all things does not relieve us of the responsibility to change those things for the better that we can.

I accept that the US, where I live now, is not a Christian nation. Nations are not Christian. People either are, or aren't. Expecting non-Christian's to behave as Christians is an unreasonable expectations and laws are going to be passed or not passed in a democracy.

I'll seek to influence where I can and trust God for the results. I'd rather see one person saved than 10 laws passed.

The problem I see here is the apparent double-talk in condoning one legalization when clearly alcohol has a definite effect on society and yet you remain silent to the issue. You're not promoting such a turn in law. I'm sure it's because if it were illegal to drink any amount of alcohol, you couldn't really stand on the "Jesus made wine..." soap box and continue your vice however minimal it seems to you. The fact of the matter is probably that you do drink alcohol...and making a law against it would have direct affect on you...as a drinker.
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[BavarianWheels]

No need for the personal jab, I was just making an observation. And do you know for a fact that pornography has little or no effect on marriage? Because it was one of the major factors that led to my parents' divorce.

Once again...IT HAS NO EFFECT ON THOSE THAT DON'T TAKE PART IN IT. If it does...you have the burden of proof to show how something absent from a life affects it...and please don't say it affects our taxes and thus it affects everyone...that's not the effect we're speaking of here. If it has a "real" effect...is the question.

Sorry it lead to your parents divorce...but again at least one took part in it.
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That's my point: Only one person in the relationship has to take part in it and it will still effect the other person. I'm not arguing in this case for people who have no porn in their household whatsoever.

Do not the two become one in marriage? Gen. 2:24, Matt. 19:5-6. Mark 10: 7-8,
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[Canuckster1127]

I've said all I have to say on the subject.

I accept Christians can differ in their views on this matter. It's too serious a matter in terms of the human cost for me as a Christian not to vote my conscience and influence society in this direction where I can. There are plenty of vices that are "legal" including alcohol abuse, porn or anything else one wants to add to the list. Arguing that because we can't construct a perfect society then anything should go, is not an argument that I accept nor can I accept as a rationale Christian. Because we lack the power to change all things does not relieve us of the responsibility to change those things for the better that we can.

I accept that the US, where I live now, is not a Christian nation. Nations are not Christian. People either are, or aren't. Expecting non-Christian's to behave as Christians is an unreasonable expectations and laws are going to be passed or not passed in a democracy.

I'll seek to influence where I can and trust God for the results. I'd rather see one person saved than 10 laws passed.

The problem I see here is the apparent double-talk in condoning one legalization when clearly alcohol has a definite effect on society and yet you remain silent to the issue. You're not promoting such a turn in law. I'm sure it's because if it were illegal to drink any amount of alcohol, you couldn't really stand on the "Jesus made wine..." soap box and continue your vice however minimal it seems to you. The fact of the matter is probably that you do drink alcohol...and making a law against it would have direct affect on you...as a drinker.
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No Bav Wheels. I've given you the rationale upon which I base that position.

It is no more valid to suggest that I am opposed to prohibition of alcohol on the basis on my personal use than it would be to suggest that you're in favor of legalization of prostitution because you plan to use the services.

I suggest you take some time out and cool off.