Aborted Fetuses?

[Cross.eyed]

Babies aren't born with evil hearts. Everything they learn is taught to them, either through their parents or by circumstances that happen to them.

True. How would a fetus or even a six mo. old baby know what evil is?

This is your opinion. Just that. Studies have shown that there is genetic predesposition to certain behevioural patterns. When a dophin saves someone's life that was taught to the dolphin?

Of course the dolphin was taught. I'm sure a dolphin fetus couldn't knowingly rescue anyone.

Remember, the bible states we have and do sin. If you count ancestrial sins it's even worse. If anything the bible states we are born with sin. A sinful babie who dies has no chance to redeem himself.

...Oookay...would you explain how a baby can be sinful? Um...btw..how does anyone redeem himself?

If you look at it more technically, you could say every human is born with a set of genetic traits that encourge some sinful behaviour.

Sorry, no disrespect here, but I would have to see this in documented form.

[Marcosll]

"True. How would a fetus or even a six mo. old baby know what evil is?"

Evil is a human construct. The baby doesn't know but in a religious context (which we are) there are evil acts, and saying "I didn't now it was wrong" is no excuse in religiuos terms. Of course I'm talking about a baby predisposed genetically for sinful behaviour.

"Of course the dolphin was taught. I'm sure a dolphin fetus couldn't knowingly rescue anyone."

Right... so a Dolphin that saves a human's life was taught by his mother how to save human lives... Animal's (even humans) have a genetic instruction set built in where we can survive without being taught how to. Learning from parents/others helps but isn't essential for most forms of life on the planet.

"...Oookay...would you explain how a baby can be sinful? Um...btw..how does anyone redeem himself? "

According to Chrstianity, through fait in Christ essentially, and with a few twists depending on which flavour of Christianity you prefer. Once again, inheritted sin.


"If you look at it more technically, you could say every human is born with a set of genetic traits that encourge some sinful behaviour."

""Sorry, no disrespect here, but I would have to see this in documented form.""

Once again, sinful being as defined by religion. Killing someone would be sinful, plus any of the other actions that would be considered sins. So, if you took a set of babies and didn't teach them anything, each one would eventually do something that's considered a sin. If you think can take a bunch of humans, teach them absolutely nothing but how to survive and then let them leave with each other, obviously there will be bad interactions between them. If you think the untrained state of a human is to act in good manner you're wrong hehe. We're animals - predators, by nature, the most fierce and best at killing on the planet.

[jenna]

"Babies aren't born with evil hearts. Everything they learn is taught to them, either through their parents or by circumstances that happen to them."

This is your opinion. Just that. Studies have shown that there is genetic predesposition to certain behevioural patterns. When a dolphin saves someone's life that was taught to the dolphin?

Remember, the bible states we have and do sin. If you count ancestrial sins it's even worse. If anything the bible states we are born with sin. A sinful babie who dies has no chance to redeem himself.

If you look at it more technically, you could say every human is born with a set of genetic traits that encourge some sinful behaviour.

Certain behavioral patterns do not make one have an evil heart. And you are comparing a dolphin to a human? Yes, we have sin and we do sin. Sin in itself is not what makes a person evil. It is loving to sin that makes a person evil. I commit sin daily, am I evil? No, because I repent and try not to do that same thing again. When one continually sins, with no feelings that they need to repent, that is what makes one evil. A baby would not understand what repentance is, so they aren't evil.

[Cross.eyed]

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Certain behavioral patterns do not make one have an evil heart. And you are comparing a dolphin to a human? Yes, we have sin and we do sin. Sin in itself is not what makes a person evil. It is loving to sin that makes a person evil. I commit sin daily, am I evil? No, because I repent and try not to do that same thing again. When one continually sins, with no feelings that they need to repent, that is what makes one evil. A baby would not understand what repentance is, so they aren't evil.

Hi Jenna, I haven't read much from you lately, good to see you're still around.
I agree with you , a baby (much less a fetus) could not understand repentance, redemption, or sin-thus they couldn't have an evil heart.

Is it sin that sends us to eternal damnation? I think not, for if it were so, then none of us would see heaven...correct? So if a baby does somehow sin (unknowingly of course) then the sin could not count against him/her...right? The Old Testament has laws for the feeble minded-wouldn't the same concept sound reasonable for babies?

Does anybody have stats concerning predispositional behavior? As psychology seems to be a little like hit and miss science, I wonder if there is any hard evidence for/against inborn tendencies.

[believ3r]

I think Matthew 19:14 pretty much answers this without question. Jesus welcomes little children into the kingdom, so I would think aborted fetuses count as well.

[Marcosll]

Firstly, jenna, you didn't read the whole thread so you don't know what we're talking about dolphins for. In any case, it would still be ok to compare dophins to humans since we are relatively close relatives of them.

Secondly, not all Christian's thinks babies are sin-free. Further, if you read the thread you'd see I was originally defending that babies are sin free, then posting replies as to why some Christian's believe babies are not sin-free.

My viewpointis for this thread is basically:

1) God will be the judge of what he does with a baby's soul.
2) The bible lacks significant information as to what happens to a baby's soul.
3) Personally I don't think heaven or hell exist. I do, however, believe in God and in the afterlife.

[Seraph]

I agree with others that we no evidence on what happens to babies after death. With issues like this all one can do is tell themself that God will deal with them justly.


I find this pretty interesting

3) Personally I don't think heaven or hell exist. I do, however, believe in God and in the afterlife.

I'm just wondering, what do you think the afterlife is if you don't believe in heaven or hell?

[jenna]

Firstly, jenna, you didn't read the whole thread so you don't know what we're talking about dolphins for. In any case, it would still be ok to compare dophins to humans since we are relatively close relatives of them.

Secondly, not all Christian's thinks babies are sin-free. Further, if you read the thread you'd see I was originally defending that babies are sin free, then posting replies as to why some Christian's believe babies are not sin-free.

My viewpointis for this thread is basically:

1) God will be the judge of what he does with a baby's soul.
2) The bible lacks significant information as to what happens to a baby's soul.
3) Personally I don't think heaven or hell exist. I do, however, believe in God and in the afterlife.

Firstly, Marcosll, yes I did read the entire thread. It's only your opinion that I didn't. Dolphins are still animals, and saying we are close relatives? Did you know we also share a common bond with the butterbean? You posted your thoughts, I posted mine. Simple as that. I agree with you on your basic points. I also do not believe in heaven being the reward of the saved, nor in an eternal, ever-burning hell.

[Seraph]

I also do not believe in heaven being the reward of the saved, nor in an eternal, ever-burning hell.

I'll ask you also in addition to Marcosll, what do you picture the afterlife to be? If there is no salvation, whats the point of having your sins forgiven? Ultimatly, isn't finding yourself in God's presence after dying supposed to be the central theme in Christianity?

[jenna]

I also do not believe in heaven being the reward of the saved, nor in an eternal, ever-burning hell.

I'll ask you also in addition to Marcosll, what do you picture the afterlife to be? If there is no salvation, whats the point of having your sins forgiven? Ultimatly, isn't finding yourself in God's presence after dying supposed to be the central theme in Christianity?

My belief is that when Christ returns Cristians will be rulers on earth along with Him. I am sure this is going to be another topic, so maybe we could start another thread? Humans do not receive their reward when they die, Christ will bring the reward to us when He returns. (Rev. 22:12)

[BavarianWheels]

I also do not believe in heaven being the reward of the saved, nor in an eternal, ever-burning hell.

I'll ask you also in addition to Marcosll, what do you picture the afterlife to be? If there is no salvation, whats the point of having your sins forgiven? Ultimatly, isn't finding yourself in God's presence after dying supposed to be the central theme in Christianity?

My belief is that when Christ returns Cristians will be rulers on earth along with Him. I am sure this is going to be another topic, so maybe we could start another thread? Humans do not receive their reward when they die, Christ will bring the reward to us when He returns. (Rev. 22:12)

...in agreement with Jenna.
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[Marcosll]

I have a different picture of Spirituality.

The afterlife exists in a different dimension to the one we experience. I am convinced that every human has chosen to be born in this world on his own free will. i.e. we are all here willingly.

I also agree that when we die our life will be reviewed (judged) by God and somehow this has an affect on your existance in the afterlife.

The idea of banishing someone to hell for eternity for making a mistake in one lifetime just seems too unjust for me to accept. We all pick our own God and I choose one that is loving and fair.

[Canuckster1127]

I have a different picture of Spirituality.

The afterlife exists in a different dimension to the one we experience. I am convinced that every human has chosen to be born in this world on his own free will. i.e. we are all here willingly.

I also agree that when we die our life will be reviewed (judged) by God and somehow this has an affect on your existance in the afterlife.

The idea of banishing someone to hell for eternity for making a mistake in one lifetime just seems too unjust for me to accept. We all pick our own God and I choose one that is loving and fair.

I would suggest that God is Who He is, not Whom we pick. I believe God is loving and fair and reveals Himself in that manner. I also believe that He is Loving and Fair in accordance with His nature, not according to our limited perspective of the matter. Assuming that we create God as we desire for Him to be, what would be the point? God either exists or He doesn't. If He does, (and I believe He does) then why would you expect Him to line up with what you would pick?

[jenna]

Good points, Canuckster. I also think that not all men are here willingly. Some wish they had never been born at all. I know there have been times when I have felt this way, but haven't ended it all because that would be giving up, and I'm not a quitter. Being born into the world isn't a choice we ourselves make, but one our parents decide for us. What we choose to do with that life, however, is up to us.

[Marcosll]

I understand your viewpoints, I, long ago, once also thought as you do. Much research and thought later I've come to different conclusions. Someone in the thread had asked me to state my viewpoint and I have.