God on OT vs. God nowadays etc...

[Kurieuo]

Well this is another good point. Does not Pharaoh hardening his own heart mean God hardening it? The fact that "God worked on it" means it was getting hard because God wanted it and He hardened it. Saying it was becoming hard means it is because God made it - it's also said somewhere else in Bible. Not according to his own choice? Well... if God also changed his will to be so - meaning he hardened his heart... it's paradoxical though. Because in order for God to harden his heart he must have changed his will - so then is it due to his [own] will or due to will which was put to him by will of God? For example, if I now ask God to harden my heart and be against Him (not that I have any intention of doing it! ) then most probably I would be against God... because the fact that I wished it meant I make myself against Him even if I don't ask Him - and moreover, it is psychology of conditioning myself to be against God... but was pharaoh case such?

I don't think it was God's will to harden Pharaoh's heart. God was giving Pharaoh choices and Pharaoh chose against God. Much like telling someone that they will hit a wall if they don't turn the steering wheel of their car. If I decided to ignore detour signs on an impending doom, who's fault is it?

I believe madscientist is referring to the passages like:

Exodus 4:21
21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3
3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt,

Exodus 9:12
12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

Exodus 10:1
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them

Exodus 10:20
20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

Exodus 10:27
27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

Exodus 11:10
10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

Given these passages the issue madscientist raises is much more confronting about how God can harden Pharaoh's heart, yet Pharaoh still be punished for being hardened.

[Gman]

Given these passages the issue madscientist raises is much more confronting about how God can harden Pharaoh's heart, yet Pharaoh still be punished for being hardened.

Yes, I don't think however that God caused Pharaoh to act against his own will. I believe that God's revelation or presence softens the heart of those who believe and hardens the heart of those who refuse to believe. Like you said, much like our sun's heat that softens wax but will harden clay... We see this in humans too. Sometimes when we love others, it may actually make them more angry. Therefore our actions actually had a reverse effect. It depends on where their heart is at...

[madscientist]

It is not really paradoxical. For example, if the Sun hardens clay is the Sun enforcing its will upon the clay, or is the nature of the clay simply reacting to the heat of the Sun? Similarly, I see such was likely the case with God and the hardening of Pharaoh's heart.

Ah good point Kurieuo! Well it's both i guess

I don't think it was God's will to harden Pharaoh's heart. God was giving Pharaoh choices and Pharaoh chose against God. Much like telling someone that they will hit a wall if they don't turn the steering wheel of their car. If I decided to ignore detour signs on an impending doom, who's fault is it?

But then - if it weren't God's will to harden his heart why He did it? If God doesn't please to do something He does not do it. But yeah I read some post about more wills in God... ones He wish, but others He chooses or permits... I think this is one of such cases. He may have not wanted, but then He chose to... but again it says in Bible God used him for this and that he hardened his heart etc making it look like He wished it... dunno

I would guess that those are the consequences of living in a fallen world... I think we all have an equal chance, but living in a fallen world (sinful) also has it's limitations.

Hmm yeah but doesn't really seem fair... I don't know. I mean, humans are pretty much of equal nature, and what makes us special/unique is our genetic natutre and environment and what we have gone through and that. Because everyone's different, has a different brain with all different memories and stuff, we are all different. But human nature is generally the same... want what other biological creatures want (reproduce, food, survival) but then all of us wish to be happy. Then some of us have also want to for example be rich, whilst others know this would make them greedy. Others want to conquer the world while others prefer to be in peace even if this means to be ruled over. Whilst some want to sleep with any man/woman they find attractive, others are aware this is wrong and so suppress (consciously or unconsciously?) this wish... And the case was that some stayed loyal to God whilst others could not be bothered. Why? Free will? That's the question... Now then the fact that everyone has different opportunities also comes in here and as a result, the consequences also must be different from person to person.

Given these passages the issue madscientist raises is much more confronting about how God can harden Pharaoh's heart, yet Pharaoh still be punished for being hardened.

Yes Kurieuo exactly! Got it! That is what was my point actually... the basic point. How can God harden us and then blame us for being so if He were the one Who made us so, yet still being a perfect being and infintely good fair and loving? On the other hand, if God chooses to save us, give us circumstances which literally force us to be good and believe - then again, is it our choice or God forcing us to be so? Also, if God makes the circumstances (e.g. makes one stubborn due to genetic inheritance, then an environment which makes it even worse etc etc) so that it all leads to us falling us away from God - who is to blame?

Yes, I don't think however that God caused Pharaoh to act against his own will. I believe that God's revelation or presence softens the heart of those who believe and hardens the heart of those who refuse to believe. Like you said, much like our sun's heat that softens wax but will harden clay... We see this in humans too. Sometimes when we love others, it may actually make them more angry. Therefore our actions actually had a reverse effect. It depends on where their heart is at...

Yes that's also true. But if God rather wished pharaoh to be saved, He would have changed the circumstances around him and that would start a cause & effect thing and then if pharaoh just for a second wished "I want to be saved" then maybe due to this fraction of time the consequences would be different... That's also how i interpret us. Often we have to make a choice... then we are undecisive. Then, for a fraction of a second we suddenly feel inclined towards one side. Our brain i suppose. Then if that's overweighed we do it. The fact that today i may say "yes i want to give up a cigarette" will lead in a year me stopping smoking. On the other hand, saying "i will have one today" leads me to (harden? ) my mind and become even more addicted... duno - good point? Thing is - sometimes the one choice when we are to decide whether continue with our sinful/less sinfull nature or change - e.g. a bad man saying to starting following Christ or a good man joining a band of bad people and being like them...

[Gman]

But then - if it weren't God's will to harden his heart why He did it? If God doesn't please to do something He does not do it. But yeah I read some post about more wills in God... ones He wish, but others He chooses or permits... I think this is one of such cases. He may have not wanted, but then He chose to... but again it says in Bible God used him for this and that he hardened his heart etc making it look like He wished it... dunno

Mad, I'm confused on what you are saying. God didn't harden Pharaoh's heart. God's actions caused Pharaoh to harden his heart, but it was Pharaoh that chose to harden it, not God. God had to do something, the Jews were getting killed under Pharaoh so as a last resort God had to send plagues to Egypt. There really wasn't much more that could be done at this point. Pharaoh's sin brought it on.

Yes Kurieuo exactly! Got it! That is what was my point actually... the basic point. How can God harden us and then blame us for being so if He were the one Who made us so, yet still being a perfect being and infintely good fair and loving? On the other hand, if God chooses to save us, give us circumstances which literally force us to be good and believe - then again, is it our choice or God forcing us to be so? Also, if God makes the circumstances (e.g. makes one stubborn due to genetic inheritance, then an environment which makes it even worse etc etc) so that it all leads to us falling us away from God - who is to blame?

I guess I don't understand how you see that God hardens our hearts or forces us to make choices. God may put choices in front of us, but we choose the path we want. Ultimately I believe God puts choices in front of us to accomplish his goodness. If our bad choices start hurting others, then we fall under the consequences of God's judgment just like the police.

Yes that's also true. But if God rather wished pharaoh to be saved, He would have changed the circumstances around him and that would start a cause & effect thing and then if pharaoh just for a second wished "I want to be saved" then maybe due to this fraction of time the consequences would be different... That's also how i interpret us.

I don't think these verses are talking about salvation. That is a different subject in itself. Did Pharaoh send himself to hell? I don't know the answer to that question and the Bible doesn't say either.

Often we have to make a choice... then we are undecisive. Then, for a fraction of a second we suddenly feel inclined towards one side. Our brain i suppose. Then if that's overweighed we do it. The fact that today i may say "yes i want to give up a cigarette" will lead in a year me stopping smoking. On the other hand, saying "i will have one today" leads me to (harden? ) my mind and become even more addicted... duno - good point? Thing is - sometimes the one choice when we are to decide whether continue with our sinful/less sinfull nature or change - e.g. a bad man saying to starting following Christ or a good man joining a band of bad people and being like them...

Yes, if you are saying that we don't always know good from bad, that is true. Sometimes when we make bad choices we don't see the fruits of it at first. Like planting a garden in one season, and finding out the next season that we actually planted weeds..

[B. W.]

+
Regarding Pharaoh's heart — never forget that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God as well as that through Adam and Eve's transgression — sin entered the world and by nature we all have become children due God's wrath.

Same holds true for ol' Pharaoh. He had a sin nature and was by no means a 'victim' as some ideologies contest based on their presupposition that Pharaoh was just an innocent passive victim of a mean old arbitrary God and Pharaoh was just arbitrarily d-mned out of the blue.

Sin hardens all out hearts. Look at the book of Job:

Job 34:23,25, "For God has no need to consider a man further, that he should go before God in judgment... 25 Thus, knowing their works, he overturns them in the night..."

God knows the work of people before they ever were and can fashion them for any purpose God so wills. Now look at Job 34:26-28 : "He strikes them for their wickedness in a place for all to see, 27 because they turned aside from following him and had no regard for any of his ways, 28 so that they caused the cry of the poor to come to him, and he heard the cry of the afflicted."

Pharaoh's heart was hardened through sin he was born into. His heart was already hard. Pharaoh hardened his own heart by sin. Since God knows everything beforehand — knowing this person would never listen to God when God speaks - calls, God sent a process that made Pharaohs sin encrusted hard heart harder than it ever was without any unfairness to Pharaoh. How?

Look at Job 36:8-12: "And if they are bound in chains and caught in the cords of affliction, 9 then he declares to them their work and their transgressions, that they are behaving arrogantly. 10 He opens their ears to instruction and commands that they return from iniquity. 11 If they listen and serve him, they complete their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasantness. 12 But if they do not listen, they perish by the sword and die without knowledge."

God sent Aaron and Moses to Pharaoh where they declared to Pharaoh the work of his transgressions against the children of Israel. Pharaoh heard but would never let these people go in peace. God uses various types of afflictions to open the ears of people.

In the account of Pharaoh such massive afflictions occurred. One can reject this opening of the ears or listen and repent. That is left to the person after hearing God's call. God would be unjust and not true to his own nature and character if he did not speak to all. It is up to how one hears and responds that makes election possible.

Notice what Job 36:11-12 states: “11 If they listen and serve him, they complete their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasantness. 12 But if they do not listen, they perish by the sword and die without knowledge."

When God speaks — he calls for a choice to be made. A person is called to make a choice because God's call poses the choice. There is no choice if God never spoke to humanity and we would all die in our sins. Now there is a choice, the word became flesh came for this purpose. Now please notice that in the quote from Job 36:11-12 above the option of not listening is granted to the person to make. People do have a choice.

Now read Job 37:23-24: "The Almighty ... he is great [excellent] in power; justice and abundant righteousness he will not violate. 24 Therefore men fear him; he does not regard any who are wise in their own conceit."

God is excellent and great in power, justice, doing righteousness that will not violate or oppress. With this in mind, think of it this way. God knowing everything still offers those whom he foreknows will never repent still speaks, calls offering a chance to repent and return to him. That is great power, justice, and doing righteousness that will not violate or oppress. How can God be true to himself if he does not do so?

If a person rejects God — God does not regard any who are wise in their own conceit. The Lord seals their heart, justly, rightly, fairly as that is what they desire. That is how Pharaoh's own hard heart was made harder without any oppression by God forcing Pharaohs heart to become hard.

There was no violation to Pharaoh at all as he heard and rejected God's offer as God foresaw he would before he was ever born. God still offered his call. It was Pharaoh whom refused to listen and he perished by the sword of the Lord and died without knowledge.

I know this is a novel concept: God's word offers choice to all because without it there could be no choice made by human beings due to the nature of sin in our hearts — no election possible without the offer made by His Word. Therefore, God remains true to his nature and character. He cannot help but know all things and can do as he wills as there is no unrighteousness with God.
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[madscientist]

Uhh it looks like you both are pretty much saying the same thing that is that we have a choice...
OK so now - should we understand God hardening his heart as "he hardened his own heart [just as anyone evil does nowadays] but God allowed him to do so" -so in essence his hardening was the same as anyone else's today? because all those verses look like God made pharaoh to be who he was, gave him power, so that "his power could be shown on him" or something like that. Then there is this verse with clay and the potter and how the clay has no right to object - somewhere in Romans... well looks like if we are "lucky" to be born so that God wants to use us for a good purpose - if we are the right clay, then we end up in heaven but if we are the clay to be used for a bad purpose then I guess we have some choices but those go to vain as predestination seems to beat everything that follows it. Free will I consider is the last... Predestination (nature & partly nurture) and then free will.

Well maybe i was all wrong in the paragraph above but yeah that is how i view it. I mean, if we ALL had the same genes and all lived through exactly the same circumstances, had the exact same particles arranged in the same ways... would we all turn out the same? Maybe but that looks more like physics. Or not, as theory of uncertainty comes into this...

I know this is a novel concept: God's word offers choice to all because without it there could be no choice made by human beings due to the nature of sin in our hearts — no election possible without the offer made by His Word. Therefore, God remains true to his nature and character. He cannot help but know all things and can do as he wills as there is no unrighteousness with God.

Yeah and a good one too;) well i guess we'd still have choices to do such as be more evil or good, but we'd still be sinful and end up in hell so once our lives are off it makes no real difference...

[YLTYLT]

I do not think this word predestination refers to being (justified). I think it refers to being glorified. In other words all those that choose the free gift of salvation (justification) that God has call all people to, are predestined to be glorified.

Eph 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (glorification)
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Adoption refers to glorification because
Adoption is what we are waiting for.

see Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

to wit: means "the same as"

so the redemption is when our "salvation ticket" (so to speak) is redeemed

For example:
Consider a new neighborhood being built. And in the neighborhood there is a new school being built. And because of school zoning ordinances all the children that live in this neighborhood are predestined to attend this school. But the families have a completely free choice whether they want to move into that neighborhood or not.

attend this school = glorification
move into that neighborhood - justification


Secondly, if God is all knowing, there has never be a point at which he learned or decided something that he did not already know. So as far as foreknowledge , election, and predestination is concerned, there has never been a point where God was aware of one orf these before the other. If this were the case, then there would have been a point at which he did not know everything, and hence would preclude Him from being God.

[Gman]

Uhh it looks like you both are pretty much saying the same thing that is that we have a choice...
OK so now - should we understand God hardening his heart as "he hardened his own heart [just as anyone evil does nowadays] but God allowed him to do so" -so in essence his hardening was the same as anyone else's today? because all those verses look like God made pharaoh to be who he was, gave him power, so that "his power could be shown on him" or something like that.

Mad, I don't think that God made pharaoh who he was. I think we can safely say that God revealed more of himself and his power through the series of miracles that Moses performed. In other words, God's actions through Moses caused pharaoh to harden his heart.

Then there is this verse with clay and the potter and how the clay has no right to object - somewhere in Romans... well looks like if we are "lucky" to be born so that God wants to use us for a good purpose - if we are the right clay, then we end up in heaven but if we are the clay to be used for a bad purpose then I guess we have some choices but those go to vain as predestination seems to beat everything that follows it. Free will I consider is the last... Predestination (nature & partly nurture) and then free will.

If we look at our faith as clay, if we add water to it does it become soft whereas if we don't water it, it will become harder? It seems like it may perhaps be our choice if we allow the water to soften it even though it might be clay...

Well maybe i was all wrong in the paragraph above but yeah that is how i view it. I mean, if we ALL had the same genes and all lived through exactly the same circumstances, had the exact same particles arranged in the same ways... would we all turn out the same? Maybe but that looks more like physics. Or not, as theory of uncertainty comes into this...

Maybe we could look at it this way... If someone was born with more weeds in his clay does that make him less of a person than someone who was born with not as many weeds? Where do we draw the line and who should be the judge of how we handle our choices or weeds?

[B. W.]

Uhh it looks like you both are pretty much saying the same thing that is that we have a choice...
OK so now - should we understand God hardening his heart as "he hardened his own heart [just as anyone evil does nowadays] but God allowed him to do so" -so in essence his hardening was the same as anyone else's today? because all those verses look like God made pharaoh to be who he was, gave him power, so that "his power could be shown on him" or something like that.

Mad, I don't think that God made pharaoh who he was. I think we can safely say that God revealed more of himself and his power through the series of miracles that Moses performed. In other words, God's actions through Moses caused pharaoh to harden his heart.

Then there is this verse with clay and the potter and how the clay has no right to object - somewhere in Romans... well looks like if we are "lucky" to be born so that God wants to use us for a good purpose - if we are the right clay, then we end up in heaven but if we are the clay to be used for a bad purpose then I guess we have some choices but those go to vain as predestination seems to beat everything that follows it. Free will I consider is the last... Predestination (nature & partly nurture) and then free will.

If we look at our faith as clay, if we add water to it does it become soft whereas if we don't water it, it will become harder? It seems like it may perhaps be our choice if we allow the water to soften it even though it might be clay...

Well maybe i was all wrong in the paragraph above but yeah that is how i view it. I mean, if we ALL had the same genes and all lived through exactly the same circumstances, had the exact same particles arranged in the same ways... would we all turn out the same? Maybe but that looks more like physics. Or not, as theory of uncertainty comes into this...

Maybe we could look at it this way... If someone was born with more weeds in his clay does that make him less of a person than someone who was born with not as many weeds? Where do we draw the line and who should be the judge of how we handle our choices or weeds?

Great answers Gman!

I think I have met a few people in my lifetime who had hay for brains...
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[Canuckster1127]

I think I have met a few people in my lifetime who had hay for brains...