Disasters

[jenna]

Not to mention the latest earthquake in China, with at least 30,000 dead and the number still rising. Christ's return is near, people. Time to wake up. (Generally speaking my thoughts to people worldwide).

[madscientist]

Wow, very good! Keep this in mind when you read Job. When reading Job, I suggest that you read the first two chapters and then read chapters 32-42 where Elihu and God speak before reading chapters 3 through 31. This helps to keep the focus of the book together: Like reading the beginning and the end first before the rest of the story. I also suggest you re-read chapters 32-41 several times before reading the middle parts - then read the book in chapter order.

This may sound like an odd way to read the book of Job but with this book - things make better sense this way when you read chapters 3-31. You gain insight, I think a person may other wise lose. Try it and let me know what you think. I'll be praying for you too as you read...

Ok... but you think my theory mentioned in 2nd paragraph is applicable/acceptable? Yeah - well when at uni I hope I'll have access to all those books. It's complicated my situation I am moving out of Switerland. Hope all goes well; I am stressed a lot about the process. Just finished exams; i was not stressed at all about them; instead, I am worried now how all is gonna turn up. And yeah ordering books before leaving etc not that good. Also hope God makes it that all goes smoothly because I have not the best experiences with moving... they want me to throw out stuff I consider useful but they won't consider my point of view - they think they're right and this creates disputes and I'm always stressed when I know my parents are to come visit me... so I would appreciate some prayers or support of hope thanks (Yeah sorry was kinda off topic but kinda fits)
So yeah once I'll be at uni or live back in SK I will get some of those cool books

As for Job - yeah it will take a while; I just like to do things in chronological order am at Judges now... but sure when I'll feel like it I will read through Job

Good points Dazed and Confused! Wow i dindnt actually think of it so. But ok - so we could almost certainly say that those events are a sign from God? But here is the question: Why God every time there is this peace talk etc - intervenes by a bad thing? And also, what is bad with the peace talks and land division? Why no give land to gain peace? I'm not up to date with events happening in IL Palestine etc for me it's just a big confusion who's doing what. But why the peace talks about land division & peace were bad?? And why God then caused disasters? Looks like every time there's a big discussion about peace and reference to Israel/Christians something bad will happen??!! Well that's definitely not making me happy! Isn't discussions what we and God wants in this world? Peace talks and so? So how to go without them??! Also, why is it that a disaster comes usually nxt day and strikes the USA?? What do the Americans have to do with this?? Just maybe because Bush is in power does not mean all others needa suffer because of HIS decisions over IL... that's just absurd. But those points are actually scary... that whenever there are those talks then disasters happen... really not making me feel good about it!

As for China - yes i think if law forbids christianity then it still should be preached anyway. But why does God need to intervene in such ways??!! Now does it mean any time we want to have talks or so so many innocent people nned to suffer? Instead, Graham could get some personal signs instead of other ten thousands of people, simialr with others. moreover - does God really bring people over to Him? And if these talks ended all and peacefully - or actually, in war but no land divison - would then God make good things happen instead of bad ones??!! Yeah this is not a pleasant thing i read on this forum!!!

Not to mention the latest earthquake in China, with at least 30,000 dead and the number still rising. Christ's return is near, people. Time to wake up. (Generally speaking my thoughts to people worldwide).

Yeah i often hear about those things. Me personally I wish the world went on, but with the sort of things happening... ah let's hope and pray God will bring peace and good things instead of bad ones in the world.

[Dazed and Confused]

Good points Dazed and Confused! Wow i dindnt actually think of it so. But ok - so we could almost certainly say that those events are a sign from God? But here is the question: Why God every time there is this peace talk etc - intervenes by a bad thing? And also, what is bad with the peace talks and land division? Why no give land to gain peace? I'm not up to date with events happening in IL Palestine etc for me it's just a big confusion who's doing what. But why the peace talks about land division & peace were bad?? And why God then caused disasters? Looks like every time there's a big discussion about peace and reference to Israel/Christians something bad will happen??!! Well that's definitely not making me happy! Isn't discussions what we and God wants in this world? Peace talks and so? So how to go without them??! Also, why is it that a disaster comes usually nxt day and strikes the USA?? What do the Americans have to do with this?? Just maybe because Bush is in power does not mean all others needa suffer because of HIS decisions over IL... that's just absurd. But those points are actually scary... that whenever there are those talks then disasters happen... really not making me feel good about it!

As for China - yes i think if law forbids christianity then it still should be preached anyway. But why does God need to intervene in such ways??!! Now does it mean any time we want to have talks or so so many innocent people nned to suffer? Instead, Graham could get some personal signs instead of other ten thousands of people, simialr with others. moreover - does God really bring people over to Him? And if these talks ended all and peacefully - or actually, in war but no land divison - would then God make good things happen instead of bad ones??!! Yeah this is not a pleasant thing i read on this forum!!!

Hi Mad Scientist,
The first thing to establish is that God gave the Israelites the land of Canaan and the surrounding area. Genesis 15:18 “On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates” There is other scripture where God gives a more detailed record of Israel's borders, but I cant seem to find them at the moment. Second is that God gave them the land as an everlasting possession, Genesis 17:8 "I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God". Later on in the book of Leviticus God gives a warning that the land He gave to the Israelites shall not be sold, Leviticus 25:23 “The land, moreover, shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are {but} aliens and sojourners with Me". In the book of Joel God declares the consequences of dividing His land, Joel 3:2 “I will gather all the nations And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; And they have divided up My land". I know this is a brief response to your question and does not address them completely, so I will post some links at the bottom if you want to pursue it further. Regarding the post I made about the earthquake in China; I think I need to retract it to some degree, I have no biblical support for it and find it is more my own personnel perspective. Sometimes I jump before looking and then have to pick up the pieces. I shouldn't claim to know the mind of God, only what He reveals in His word. Though we are promised tribulations in this life, yet He has not appointed us for wraith. Be encourage and not dismayed! God Bless.
http://www.thebereancall.org/node/2589
http://www.thebereancall.org/node/1903
http://www.thebereancall.org/node/2572
http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_signs10.php

[madscientist]

Good post DaC... not the most pleasant stuff to read, but, there was this question whether it is better to be comoforted by a lie than hurt by truth. Well it seems those things seem scarily true... I mean, after reading all of that it really looks the prophecies have been fulfilling. I don't know much about IL and what had been happening lately - it's pretty much fighting in Palestine and stuff like that. But when one reads the stuff (I only really looked on 2 of them) it's scary...

So from this it looks like IL's land is God's, and that any taking of it results in disasters, death and stuff like that. But the irony is that in order to bring peace, this land is to be divided... I mean, if one wants to bring peace what to do?? Isn't peace better for God than war? Maybe if the land were divided, some fighting would stop. Or is it Israeli's obligation to fight for it even if it means death of thousands and themselves?
And why does God look upon politics in such a way - that a political division of IL's land, such as "drawing a border on a map" makes such a difference? Nothing happens to the land physically... it remains the same, only the territory is called a different state.
Also, why does God distinguish so much between Arabs, Israelis and Gentiles? If all people were treated as "one nation" - surely that would be different. Now i wonder why God wants this distinction between nations such as Gentiles and Israelis and why He wants them to have their land - are Israelis any different from others? Moreover, most Israelis are not Christians, but of Jewish religion, and why would God want them to be so rather than turn Christian? That is another significant question... Or will they turn to Christian?

Also, to me it looks like this has been planned since beginning of humanity - really starting in Exodus when Israelis had to leave ET. It was God's plan of a part of this world's people to be "elect" for some reason (not elect as being saved) but elect to be fathers of fathers of them and to be able to be called Israeli even though we are all human... Simply God wanted for some of us to be Israeli and be elect... and to be always hated by someone, never have peace, be persecuted, killed, divided... whatever the reason - God only knows... but why He makes this distinction is what strikes me

[Dazed and Confused]

But the irony is that in order to bring peace, this land is to be divided... I mean, if one wants to bring peace what to do?? Isn't peace better for God than war?

The only true peace that we can have in the world comes from Jesus Christ. John 14:27 “Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful”. The only way for everlasting peace is the return of Christ to rule and reign over the nations from Jerusalem. Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy {place.}”.

Maybe if the land were divided, some fighting would stop. Or is it Israeli's obligation to fight for it even if it means death of thousands and themselves?

Dividing the land will not stop the fighting from the surrounding Muslim countries. Israel has been attack numerous times since her rebirth as a nation, all of them unprovoked. A good example of this is when Israel was gathered as a nation after 2,000 years. “On 14 May 1948 the State of Israel was proclaimed according to the UN partition plan (1947). Less than 24 hours later, the regular armies of Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded the country, forcing Israel to defend the sovereignty it had regained in its ancestral homeland”. How could an attack by the armies of five countries be justified, especially since they had just come out of the Holocaust. This is not an issue of land, but of the very existence of the nation of Israel. Her enemies will never stop seeking her destruction know matter how much land is given up and divided.

Now i wonder why God wants this distinction between nations such as Gentiles and Israelis and why He wants them to have their land - are Israelis any different from others?

God promised Abraham that He would make him a great nation and bless all the nations of the world through Israel. Genesis 12:2-3 “And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." There is a clear distinction here between Israel and the Gentile nations. God declares Himself to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob a distinction not given to the Gentiles.

Moreover, most Israelis are not Christians, but of Jewish religion, and why would God want them to be so rather than turn Christian? That is another significant question... Or will they turn to Christian?

Our salvation comes from the promises God made with Israel and He still has unfinished business with them. Romans 11:23-27 “And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural {branches} be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

Simply God wanted for some of us to be Israeli and be elect... and to be always hated by someone, never have peace, be persecuted, killed, divided... whatever the reason - God only knows... but why He makes this distinction is what strikes me.

This web sites gives a pretty good response as to why God picked the Jews to be His chosen people.
http://www.therefinersfire.org/chosen_peoples.htm

[madscientist]

Yeah nice DaC... read more into that and seem quite interested in this kind of stuff Thing is, I did not like to read stuff about IL and so because I did not understand what was going on and the fighting and anti-semitism but looks like after some time I may understand more and hence be interested.

So then all those peace talks is mere rubbish and tricks? Just shows how people don't keep their promises. Thing is - WHY is there so much hatred towards the Jews? I hear it's because of their past, how they had a lot of money, made profit, and jokes about jews are about them bring greedy after money etc. But looks like this has its roots even further into history, Abram.

Checked out the website... yeah. Chose them because there needed to be a nation to bring the Savior. However it also makes a point that Jews killed their own Savior but the thing is He were to be killed and so if He were not then He would not have had saved us. If it were not Jews someone must have killed Him if this was God's plan. Clearly God could have chosen a different way of Savior e.g. He must not have died but that's how God wanted it so wasn't killing Him the saving?

So at the end are all people actually the same and in the end God does not make a distinction between Gentiles and Jews? Also what's this thing with ALL IL being saved? Every person or most of the nation? ANd also how should christians look upon the Jewish religion - should we try to promote christianity even there?

[Lufia]

The thing i dont understand is why jews are so important. They, for most of them, reject Jesus. Plus they are pretty close to the outside world. My husband tried once to enter a jews community but since he is not a jew, they refused him! And also, they act kind of superior because they consider themselves as the chosen ones from God. I consider myself a children of God as ANYBODY on earth. Why isn't it the same thing for the jews? Why God forgive them anything and not others nations?

[jenna]

The thing i dont understand is why jews are so important. They, for most of them, reject Jesus. Plus they are pretty close to the outside world. My husband tried once to enter a jews community but since he is not a jew, they refused him! And also, they act kind of superior because they consider themselves as the chosen ones from God. I consider myself a children of God as ANYBODY on earth. Why isn't it the same thing for the jews? Why God forgive them anything and not others nations?

Actually, the Jews were only part of the chosen ones. God chose all the Israelites, not just the Jews. The reason He chose them was because they were descendants of Abraham. But, unfortunately, after having made a covenant with God, Israel broke the covenant, and so were no longer God's only chosen ones. The Jews were the only ones who retained their identity, the other tribes of Israel were lost in history. God will, and does, forgive anyone who truly seeks to follow Him.

[Lufia]

Ok thanks a lot Jenna. I understand more now.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

This is in error:

Actually, the Jews were only part of the chosen ones. God chose all the Israelites, not just the Jews.

For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession Dt.7:6

This is what the Lord said through Moses, to the people Moses led on their 40 years' wandering through the desert, on the way to the Promised Land. These people are the Israelites - and only them - as Dt . 7:6 makes clear.

This is misleading:

The Jews were the only ones who retained their identity, the other tribes of Israel were lost in history.

There are no lost tribes. At the time of Jesus' stay on Earth, All tribes were accounted for and Israelites knew to which tribe they belonged, to wit:

-Anna, who beheld the baby Jesus in the Temple, belonged to the tribe of Asher (a supposedly lost tribe). See Luke 2:36

-Paul, in Acts 26:7, speaks of the 12 tribes as «earnestly serv[ing] God day and night.»

-James, in his salutation (James 1:1) addressed his letter to «the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad.»

Lufia,

There is a heresy called British-Israelism which promotes the idea that the British Commonwealth of Nations and the USA are the «10 lost tribes.» One of British-Israelism's main proponents was Herbert W. Armstrong, the Founder of the Worldwide Church of God.

Many well-intentionned Christians may be believers of British-Israelism, BUT...do as the Bereans* did: verify the scriptures to see if what people are telling you is correct.

FL

*Acts 17:11

[jenna]

FL, if the tribes were not lost, then where is the tribe of Benjamin? Or the tribe of Reuben? Or any other tribe except that of Judah? And how can you say I was in error about the Israelites being God's chosen people when the verse you gave- Dt. 7:6, plainly speaks of the Israelites. Something you yourself admit. (In your exact words- "these people were the Israelites, and only them". Notice I said all Israel was God's chosen ones, not just the Jews.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

FL, if the tribes were not lost, then where is the tribe of Benjamin?

Paul was a member of the tribe of Benjamin. (By the way, that tribe has Jerusalem one of its cities, see Joshua 18:28.) That tribe was around while the New Testament was being written. It was not «lost» and has never been «lost.»

Or the tribe of Reuben? Or any other tribe except that of Judah?

Judah, your brothers will praise you; your hand will be on the neck of your enemies; your father's sons will bow down to you... (Genesis 49:8)

Today, if you ask an Israelite «what are you?» he will say « I am Jewish.» He will not say «I am a Reubenite,» or «I am a Benjamite,» or «I am an Asherite.» In a very real sense, the prophecy stated by Jacob on his deathbed in Genesis 49:8 to his son Judah has come true: all Israelites have bowed down to Judah by taking his name and calling themselves by it: Jew. Wannabes give themselves the title of «Jew,» but Scripture is clear: Jews are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob.

Notice I said all Israel was God's chosen ones, not just the Jews.

I think you are mixing up «Chosen People» with «people who have salvation.» God's «Chosen People» are those who are now called Jews, as Scripture makes clear. Knowledge of God came through the Chosen People. Prophets from God came through the Chosen People. The written Word came through the Chosen People. Messiah Jesus came through the Chosen People.

Salvation - righteousness before God - through faith in Jesus Christ the Messiah (from the tribe of Judah) is available to all, Jew and Gentile alike.

[Lufia]

I never read the OT so i'm in total darkness. I'll begin to read it to understand more, hopefully.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I never read the OT so i'm in total darkness. I'll begin to read it to understand more, hopefully.

If all you have read is the NT, you only have read ¼ of the Bible...maybe less.* By all means, read the OT. It is vitally important to your understanding of God's word.

FL

*I have this great ¼ key that I really wanted to use!

[Lufia]

Hum i lied a little bit, i have read parts of the OT. I like some parts in it like psalms, Job, proverbs but for the others i found them violent. I have difficulty with God in OT. But i'm convince now, i have taught about it for a while and i 'll read it.