hell...then and now.
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Prodigal Son
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hell...then and now.
those people who died before Jesus (so couldn't be saved by him), did they go to hell? will they get resurrected when Jesus returns and then get judged? if so, are they in hell now, or have they ceased to exist until Jesus' return?
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Joel Freeman
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RGeeB
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1 Peter 3:18-20
It appears that ungodly spirits get 'imprisoned'. Seems that a person will not face judgement until he has a fair chance of hearing and responding to Jesus. (The passage shows that Jesus personally ministered to the pre-judged spirits of people who perished in the flood. This happened before His resurrection and after His death).
This verges on the doctrine of purgatory, but only for those to whom Christians or Christ did not reach with the gospel of salvation. Does anybody have any opinions on this?
As far as the judgement is concerned, everyone's soul will be resurrected into an imperishable body, wheter at the first or the second. Till then I believe the souls sleep while the spirits go into torment, imprisonment, paradise or heaven..
It appears that ungodly spirits get 'imprisoned'. Seems that a person will not face judgement until he has a fair chance of hearing and responding to Jesus. (The passage shows that Jesus personally ministered to the pre-judged spirits of people who perished in the flood. This happened before His resurrection and after His death).
This verges on the doctrine of purgatory, but only for those to whom Christians or Christ did not reach with the gospel of salvation. Does anybody have any opinions on this?
As far as the judgement is concerned, everyone's soul will be resurrected into an imperishable body, wheter at the first or the second. Till then I believe the souls sleep while the spirits go into torment, imprisonment, paradise or heaven..
Maranatha!
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Anonymous
I see it this way:
God saves who will. We understand that He chooses salvation by grace -- and that he gives grace to the humble. In that, salvation has always been the same from Adam till the last man saved.
Those before Christ looked forward to Christ for salvation those after look back to Christ for salvation. But anyone saved is so because of God's grace. God has never changed.
I don't think the Bible really addresses "soul sleeping" but it may be so.
God saves who will. We understand that He chooses salvation by grace -- and that he gives grace to the humble. In that, salvation has always been the same from Adam till the last man saved.
Those before Christ looked forward to Christ for salvation those after look back to Christ for salvation. But anyone saved is so because of God's grace. God has never changed.
I don't think the Bible really addresses "soul sleeping" but it may be so.
RGEEB that is very interesting.
I had a through, and yes I do have those
Since it is a spirits that are most like God, (made in his image) and since it isn't untill the new world that the bible says that ungodly spirits will be seperated from God for eternity. Then do the spirits of those dead who were not good enough or did not believe, is it possable that like the spirits from the flood that they can still hear god through Jesus? Since it is not untill the new world that the spirits of the unrighteuos will be seperated from god for eternity.
The other thought is Joel said
If the Jews do not offer burnt offerings to God then how do they repent?
I had a through, and yes I do have those
Since it is a spirits that are most like God, (made in his image) and since it isn't untill the new world that the bible says that ungodly spirits will be seperated from God for eternity. Then do the spirits of those dead who were not good enough or did not believe, is it possable that like the spirits from the flood that they can still hear god through Jesus? Since it is not untill the new world that the spirits of the unrighteuos will be seperated from god for eternity.
The other thought is Joel said
If this is the case and the Jews don't believe Jesus was God and came died for our sins. the they still run on the Ot, do they still offer burnt offerings to god? it is my understanding (maybe incorrectly) That Jesus coming put an end to burnt offerings being the way for repentance.People still had access to God's grace in the OT. They had to sacrifice animals to be forigiven. I think the people who followed God and listened to his word went to heaven.
If the Jews do not offer burnt offerings to God then how do they repent?
Church tradition tells us that when John, son of Zebadee and brother of James was an old man, his disciples would carry him to church in their arms.
He would simply say, “Little children, love one another”
After a time his disciples wearied at always hearing these same words and asked “Master why do you always say this?
He replied, “it is the Lords command, and if done, it is enough”
He would simply say, “Little children, love one another”
After a time his disciples wearied at always hearing these same words and asked “Master why do you always say this?
He replied, “it is the Lords command, and if done, it is enough”
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RGeeB
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The English translation for 'Jews who do not keep the OT laws', is sinners. They probably did this out of unbelief, ignorance, laziness or because of the burden of the rituals of the law. Jesus came to save sinners. Not those who thought they had God and religion figured out through their rituals. In a way, I think that those who think that their own efforts are not enough, come under God's grace.Deborah wrote:If this is the case and the Jews don't believe Jesus was God and came died for our sins. the they still run on the Ot, do they still offer burnt offerings to god? it is my understanding (maybe incorrectly) That Jesus coming put an end to burnt offerings being the way for repentance.
If the Jews do not offer burnt offerings to God then how do they repent?
Maranatha!
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Felgar
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A few comments... We know that even through the Old Testament, the people were saved by Faith and not works. (Romans 4:13 - It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.) So through his Faith, Abraham was righteous in the eyes of God.
Additionally, Jesus actually saves all those who come to God through Him by Faith — for NO man comes to the Father but through Him. Jesus didn't say that as of now, no man comes. But rather, ALL men come through Him. Given the timeless nature of God, is it a reasonable conclusion that Jesus has saved every man throughout history? If so that would include the current Jewish population as well. (Romans 10:12 - For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[Joel 2:32])
So it would seem that both Christians and Jews come to the Father through Jesus by Faith, even though the Jews do not yet recognize Jesus as their Saviour. Also interesting is that Jesus will be their Saviour at the time of the second coming, so perhaps through that action Jesus saves all Jews throughout history. Further to that: Romans 11:25-32 are entitled (in the NIV) as “All Isreal Will Be Saved”. And from those verses: (26-32 - And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.)
As a final comment I also want to point out that Jesus specifically said that it's not the Law that saves people - so the people were never saved by those sacrifices. Also interesting, is that the Jews receive mercy because of God's mercy for us ("they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you")— so I think it's probably that they are also saved through Jesus whom was sent because of God's mercy for the Gentiles.
Some of this I only formulated recently, and I'm certainly open to debate on these interpretations... Let me know what you all think.
Additionally, Jesus actually saves all those who come to God through Him by Faith — for NO man comes to the Father but through Him. Jesus didn't say that as of now, no man comes. But rather, ALL men come through Him. Given the timeless nature of God, is it a reasonable conclusion that Jesus has saved every man throughout history? If so that would include the current Jewish population as well. (Romans 10:12 - For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[Joel 2:32])
So it would seem that both Christians and Jews come to the Father through Jesus by Faith, even though the Jews do not yet recognize Jesus as their Saviour. Also interesting is that Jesus will be their Saviour at the time of the second coming, so perhaps through that action Jesus saves all Jews throughout history. Further to that: Romans 11:25-32 are entitled (in the NIV) as “All Isreal Will Be Saved”. And from those verses: (26-32 - And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.)
As a final comment I also want to point out that Jesus specifically said that it's not the Law that saves people - so the people were never saved by those sacrifices. Also interesting, is that the Jews receive mercy because of God's mercy for us ("they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you")— so I think it's probably that they are also saved through Jesus whom was sent because of God's mercy for the Gentiles.
Some of this I only formulated recently, and I'm certainly open to debate on these interpretations... Let me know what you all think.