The Most Important Rule??

[YLTYLT]

That works if one is trying to justify ones own sins.but what if I consider a sin to be not sinful but have NEVER done it? isnt that being objective? because I believe in the basic goodness of all humanity (if God created us we cant be evil can we) I see sins as less important then the good we do.Even the greatest sinner can be a good person and do the work of a Christianm while even the mosy believing committed Christian can do horrendous evil in this world

The whole idea about being objective is that it is not about what you or I consider to be true. From dictionary.com
"Objective" has several definitions. In the context that we are discussing, these 3 definitions apply.

5. not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
6. intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book.
8. of or pertaining to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.
So if it is something that you consider to be true, and it is not based upon fact or something that can be known, then it is not objective but subjective.

It would be nice to know that all humanity is basically good. But the closer I get to God, I "subjectively" see myself as more sinful. And not because I am sinning more, but because I start to recognize sin in my life that I have never noticed before. Its like that old saying, "The more I know, the more I realize I do not know." I also "subjectively" believe that as we get closer to God, Satan and the world will try to derail us by leading us into sinful tendencies that we have never had issues with before.

But I can "objectively" look at the Bible as a standard of truth.

"Objectively" you would be correct that God created us good
Gen 1
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
...
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

But in Gen 3, came the fall
and then objectively I can see in Romans 5

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

That all have sinned because of the fall.

Then I can also "objectively" see from Romans 3:9-23

9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17And the way of peace have they not known:

18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

That no one is good.

Are people capable of performing acts that are at least seemingly good? possibly. But that does not make us good. Only God is good. If we perform one sinful act, no matter how minor that disqualifies us as being "good" in the eyes of God.
And 3:23 say all have missed the mark and sinned at least once.

So consequently , I "objectively" see that humanity is not "bascially good".

But if you are able to find a verse that states that humanity is basically good, do definitely share it with us. We are all just human and very capable of being wrong and interpreting scripture incorrectly.




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Subjectively speaking:
I could be wrong but I don't think so, because if I thought I was wrong I would think differently, don't you think?

[Imperium]

I have absolutely no doub that humans can, and inevitably do evil at some point, but Ican't see how that makes us evil.It makes us as a species selfish, arrogant beyond belief and rather stupid but not fundamentally evil.God created us right? Why would God create evil?? and if Original sin has already been payed for by the sacrifice of our savior then how are we born evil??

And Scripture alone can no longer be the ONLY source of our faith.Jesus was a reformer, and warned about too blindly following the letter of the 'law' all throught his ministry-witness his arguments with the more reactionary Jewish groups of the time.We have had 2000 years since Jesus to grow up

[Canuckster1127]

I have absolutely no doub that humans can, and inevitably do evil at some point, but Ican't see how that makes us evil.It makes us as a species selfish, arrogant beyond belief and rather stupid but not fundamentally evil.God created us right? Why would God create evil?? and if Original sin has already been payed for by the sacrifice of our savior then how are we born evil??

And Scripture alone can no longer be the ONLY source of our faith.Jesus was a reformer, and warned about too blindly following the letter of the 'law' all throught his ministry-witness his arguments with the more reactionary Jewish groups of the time.We have had 2000 years since Jesus to grow up

God revealed 2 words, the written and the living and those two do not contradict each other.

[BavarianWheels]

I hope you don't really mean what it sounds like you are saying,...that God *made* humanity sinful...
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No.God merely created us human

True, but He didn't create "sinful" humans.
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[BavarianWheels]

God revealed 2 words, the written and the living and those two do not contradict each other.

Hmmm...
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[Imperium]

That is very true.But he created us human, with all the flaws of being one. And he accepts what we do in life becuase of that. Because we can never be anything more than human. Why would God hate his own creation,imperfect as it is?

[zoegirl]

WEll no, but our disagreement, of course, hinges on the understanding of, ahem, scripture.

God created creation and called it good. We had not fallen and rebelled against Him. When we sinned, that corrupted that which was created good.

God created us with that *capability* to sin. Again, that capability allows us to love God of our own instead of liek robots.

If you choose to not accept scripture, that is of course, your prerogative. But that IS what scripture teaches us.

[BavarianWheels]

That is very true.But he created us human, with all the flaws of being one. And he accepts what we do in life becuase of that. Because we can never be anything more than human. Why would God hate his own creation,imperfect as it is?

Nope, He didn't create us with flaws, but allowed for us to choose to be flawed...and in Adam we are all flawed as a consequence of sin, NOT BY DESIGN.

But you're right, God can't hate His creation no matter how flawed it has become, else Christ wouldn't have made a way for us.

However I suppose this isn't the topic, but a side note.
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[Imperium]

WEll no, but our disagreement, of course, hinges on the understanding of, ahem, scripture.

God created creation and called it good. We had not fallen and rebelled against Him. When we sinned, that corrupted that which was created good.

God created us with that *capability* to sin. Again, that capability allows us to love God of our own instead of liek robots.

If you choose to not accept scripture, that is of course, your prerogative. But that IS what scripture teaches us.

But then that beg the question: Does not accepting the absolute and historical validity of scripture mke me less of a Christian? Or merely one that challenges the absolute historical validity of the bible?

[Canuckster1127]

WEll no, but our disagreement, of course, hinges on the understanding of, ahem, scripture.

God created creation and called it good. We had not fallen and rebelled against Him. When we sinned, that corrupted that which was created good.

God created us with that *capability* to sin. Again, that capability allows us to love God of our own instead of liek robots.

If you choose to not accept scripture, that is of course, your prerogative. But that IS what scripture teaches us.

But then that beg the question: Does not accepting the absolute and historical validity of scripture mke me less of a Christian? Or merely one that challenges the absolute historical validity of the bible?

That judgement is one that must be left to God. However, without a foundation that includes the Bible as reliable and authoratative, it does place you outside of the mainstream of Christian Orthodoxy.

[YLTYLT]

I have absolutely no doub that humans can, and inevitably do evil at some point, but Ican't see how that makes us evil.It makes us as a species selfish, arrogant beyond belief and rather stupid but not fundamentally evil.God created us right? Why would God create evil?? and if Original sin has already been payed for by the sacrifice of our savior then how are we born evil??

And Scripture alone can no longer be the ONLY source of our faith.Jesus was a reformer, and warned about too blindly following the letter of the 'law' all throught his ministry-witness his arguments with the more reactionary Jewish groups of the time.We have had 2000 years since Jesus to grow up

It does not matter if you call it evil or not. IT is a matter of what God calls it. It is realy not even a matter of being evil, it is a matter of being sinful. A seemingly very "good" act, done with the selfish motivation, in Gods eyes, would still be considered sinful. God does not want our religious activity. He wants our contrite heart. That was what Jesus was trying to get across to the Pharisees. They did not have an accurate understanding of Scripture. They (the phasrisees) thought that all those religious things they did was what was going to get them to heaven. What was even worse they were proud of their religious activity. It is an accurate view of scripture that reveals where to place our faith. They were placing there faith in their religious activity, instead of a Messiah as scripture teaches. AS Abraham did, and David and Isaac, etc....

So, following the letter of the law, blindly or not blindly, is really irrelevant. It is a matter of our motivation. If our motivation is to serve others and not serve self, then it is probably not sinful. But most, and probably all, people serve themselves every day. I know I do, even as much as I would like to be able to say that I do not.

But of course there are some actions that are sin regardless of motivation,
(if that is even possible to sin with unselfish, Godly motivation???? )

But, like I said before, it is a matter of the humble spirit and a contrite heart. That is why salvation is about realizing that we are sinners that deserve to go to hell, and that we need a saviour to keep us out of hell. And that Jesus is that Saviour. This is exactly what the thief on the cross did.

[BavarianWheels]

I have absolutely no doub that humans can, and inevitably do evil at some point, but Ican't see how that makes us evil.It makes us as a species selfish, arrogant beyond belief and rather stupid but not fundamentally evil.God created us right? Why would God create evil?? and if Original sin has already been payed for by the sacrifice of our savior then how are we born evil??

And Scripture alone can no longer be the ONLY source of our faith.Jesus was a reformer, and warned about too blindly following the letter of the 'law' all throught his ministry-witness his arguments with the more reactionary Jewish groups of the time.We have had 2000 years since Jesus to grow up

It does not matter if you call it evil or not. IT is a matter of what God calls it. It is realy not even a matter of being evil, it is a matter of being sinful. A seemingly very "good" act, done with the selfish motivation, in Gods eyes, would still be considered sinful. God does not want our religious activity. He wants our contrite heart. That was what Jesus was trying to get across to the Pharisees. They did not have an accurate understanding of Scripture. They (the phasrisees) thought that all those religious things they did was what was going to get them to heaven. What was even worse they were proud of their religious activity. It is an accurate view of scripture that reveals where to place our faith. They were placing there faith in their religious activity, instead of a Messiah as scripture teaches. AS Abraham did, and David and Isaac, etc....

So, following the letter of the law, blindly or not blindly, is really irrelevant. It is a matter of our motivation. If our motivation is to serve others and not serve self, then it is probably not sinful. But most, and probably all, people serve themselves every day. I know I do, even as much as I would like to be able to say that I do not.

But of course there are some actions that are sin regardless of motivation,
(if that is even possible to sin with unselfish, Godly motivation???? )

But, like I said before, it is a matter of the humble spirit and a contrite heart. That is why salvation is about realizing that we are sinners that deserve to go to hell, and that we need a saviour to keep us out of hell. And that Jesus is that Saviour. This is exactly what the thief on the cross did.

I agree with you, however I'd like some clarity on something. Are you saying the letter of the law is irrelevant to keep? Is there not a manner in which to endeavor to keep God's law or is it always "irrelevant" being that we are not saved by the law?
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[Imperium]

I have absolutely no doub that humans can, and inevitably do evil at some point, but Ican't see how that makes us evil.It makes us as a species selfish, arrogant beyond belief and rather stupid but not fundamentally evil.God created us right? Why would God create evil?? and if Original sin has already been payed for by the sacrifice of our savior then how are we born evil??

And Scripture alone can no longer be the ONLY source of our faith.Jesus was a reformer, and warned about too blindly following the letter of the 'law' all throught his ministry-witness his arguments with the more reactionary Jewish groups of the time.We have had 2000 years since Jesus to grow up

It does not matter if you call it evil or not. IT is a matter of what God calls it. It is realy not even a matter of being evil, it is a matter of being sinful. A seemingly very "good" act, done with the selfish motivation, in Gods eyes, would still be considered sinful. God does not want our religious activity. He wants our contrite heart. That was what Jesus was trying to get across to the Pharisees. They did not have an accurate understanding of Scripture. They (the phasrisees) thought that all those religious things they did was what was going to get them to heaven. What was even worse they were proud of their religious activity. It is an accurate view of scripture that reveals where to place our faith. They were placing there faith in their religious activity, instead of a Messiah as scripture teaches. AS Abraham did, and David and Isaac, etc....

So, following the letter of the law, blindly or not blindly, is really irrelevant. It is a matter of our motivation. If our motivation is to serve others and not serve self, then it is probably not sinful. But most, and probably all, people serve themselves every day. I know I do, even as much as I would like to be able to say that I do not.

But of course there are some actions that are sin regardless of motivation,
(if that is even possible to sin with unselfish, Godly motivation???? )

But, like I said before, it is a matter of the humble spirit and a contrite heart. That is why salvation is about realizing that we are sinners that deserve to go to hell, and that we need a saviour to keep us out of hell. And that Jesus is that Saviour. This is exactly what the thief on the cross did.

So sin and evil are different?

[jenna]

Personally, I would say yes, they are different. Sin is the breaking of the law. Everyone who has ever lived has commited sin of some kind. The difference is while everyone has sinned, not everyone can be seen as evil. When you are evil is when you commit sin, and have no remorse or repentance for what you have done. One can commit sin, but as long as they repent and ask forgiveness, they are not considered "evil".

[zoegirl]

I think we're just bouncing around semantics here. Whether or not we fulfll some human idea of evil or sin, the point is, "all have fallen short of the glory of GOd" WE are not righteous.

Depravity doesn't mean completely evil, rather that sin has affected and permeated everything we do, say, or think. We have fallen short, missed the mark.