Pre-Determined?

Believer · Post by **Believer** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:09 am

Is it possible that God has made it pre-determined for each individual in life to have a certain level of faith and destination after death? For me I believe but I have problems with it. So could one conclude that God purposely places the person exactly where they should be or is it free will?

- Brian

AttentionKMartShoppers · Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:49 pm

I think God chooses certain people specifically to do His work. Many of the ancestors of the Jews, for instance, were chosen by God to do certain things. One of them being Jacob. He was supposed to be above his older brother and be served by him. God, though, does not make us do certain things. Though Jacob was chosen to be above his brother, he went about it the wrong way by stealing and lying, things against God's character.

Genesis 25:29-34
When Jacob had cooked stew, Esau came in from the field and he was famished; and Esau said to Jacob, "Please let me have a swallow of that red stuff there, for I am famished." Therefore his name was called Edom. But Jacob said, "First sell me your birthright." Esau said, "Behold, I am about to die; so of what {use} then is the birthright to me?" And Jacob said, "First swear to me"; so he swore to him, and sold his birthright to Jacob. Then Jacob gave Esau bread and lentil stew; and he ate and drank, and rose and went on his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.

Genesis 25
23 The LORD said to her, " R713 Two nations are in your womb; And R714 two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the R715 older shall serve the younger

I don't think that God picks people to go to hell. God does give us free choice to choose Him or leave Him. That's why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in the Garden. You may come back and point to Judas, but God didn't choose Him to do that. It was Satan who at the end entered into Judas and sent him off to betray Jesus. It was just prophesized several times that Jesus would be betrayed by a close friend. God saw it would happen and someone prophesized about it, God didn't say it would happen because He would cause it to happen (I hope that last part made sense).

I do think God uses Satan to further His ends as well. God allows Satan to torture the mess out of Job (but He won't let him kill Job), yes, but only so He can test Job and bless him even more than before.

I am not a Calvanist by any means and I don't believe in the doctrine of pre-destination in its fullest. Some may be chosen for heaven (I think I said that) but I don't think God chooses people for hell. There's no mercy in that, and God is merciful.

I hope I made sense. I'm groggy at 2 PM.

Believer · Post by **Believer** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:59 pm

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:I am not a Calvanist by any means and I don't believe in the doctrine of pre-destination in its fullest. Some may be chosen for heaven (I think I said that) but I don't think God chooses people for hell. There's no mercy in that, and God is merciful.

You used the word "Some may be chosen for heaven", does that imply that not all people go to heaven or hell? Where then do they go if some people don't go to heaven or hell?

AttentionKMartShoppers · Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:50 pm

No. My view is that God specifically chooses some people to become Christians by sending the Holy Spirit after them without any prompting and converting them.

When I say chosen, I mean God practically MAKES them Christian, breaks their heart and grabs hold of them without waiting for someone to pray for their salvation and praying for them (though, in the end, the person really does have the choice to flee from God, but I think he is too overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit to say no). It is still free choice, though it's harder for the people He sends the Holy Spirit after (and that's why you pray for someone's salvation as you witness, because He is the only thing that can soften their heart).

I don't believe the pre-destination crud that my sociology teacher kicks around, the idea that you go to heaven or hell based on what God feels like instead of having to submit to Him and convert.

?Me entiendes?

Joel Freeman · Post by **Joel Freeman** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:06 pm

The puritans believed in predestination, and it ended up getting people hung.

RGeeB · Post by **RGeeB** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:04 am

God choses and we persevere with the choices we make with our freewill. I believe both can exist simultaneously. (A combination of Calvinistic and Arminian outlooks).

God will save everyone who comes to Him through faith in Jesus. Not being sure of this is just the devil trying to mess with the mind.