I forgot about this thread :p
Note: A word for word English translation from Greek text misses much of the Greek and a person will have too add a few words to uncover the richness of the Greek text into English — This is what I attempted to do as well as line it up with the pattern clearly written later in Paul's letter in this 'personal translation' below of Eph 2:8-10. It is not the best but notice a few things.
Eph 2:8-10, “for (God's) grace brings salvation ' (dia / ho)grace moving through with the intended effect on' faith [trust God alone] this is God's gift, so you will not trust yourself and in your own works: Him!! ---> Will be busy fashioning you into his masterpiece created in Christ Jesus for a vocation of good virtues which God prepared beforehand [predestined] that you will live by these.”
The intended effect of Grace/salvation is to change faith to be in God alone and not in ourselves or in our own works. God is busy fashioning us into His masterpiece created in/by Christ Jesus for a life's vocation of good virtues, transforming us into a good nature, and excellent character, which God prepared beforehand [predestined] that we will live by these. This is God's gift least anyone should boast. Faith in self will be removed and faith in God alone cemented in such manner you cannot lose it. That is his gift of love — to change a person's faith to rest in God — his Grace through faith.
I'm not even going to get into this other than to say that I totally disagree with your usage of Greek here. I'm not sure what kind of training you have in the language, but this looks like you got an amplified Bible and a Strong's Concordance--maybe a Robertsons' or Vincent's Word Pictures while you were at it--and just started pulling together ideas. Sorry, I just flat disagree.
On to some of your other verses:
This is backed up in Eph 1:4-6 “…even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved…”
I've discussed my view on election elsewhere on these boards. "in Him" is the key phrase here. It is locative, not instrumental, and thus could be translated, "even as, before the foundation of the world, He chose us
who are in Him . . ." Thus, the predestination is only for those who are in Christ, and that predestination is not to salvation, but to adoption (which we have not yet received). Upon our bodily redemption, we will then be adopted, as will everyone who is in Christ.
Continuing in Eph 1:11-15: “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. 15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints…”
See notes above on predestination.
1 Thessalonians 4:3-7 reads and reveals God's will backing up Ephesians 1:1-15: "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness." (1 Thess 4:3-7)
Do you really think any verse in Scripture needs the "backing" of another? Of course not. But, aside from that, the verse itself is fine like it stands. God certainly does desire that we are sanctified. We certainly will be perfectly sanctified at our redemption, but that is yet future. Today, our progressive sanctification, like our positional sanctification, is by faith alone. It is not automatic. When we rest in Christ's promise, He works in us to make us more mature in Him. But when we do not rest in Him, we "walk according to the flesh" (Rom
, which leads us to corruption.
You see Jac, God predestined those that are to be his to become holy and blameless before him. There is evidence that one is saved. These good works of godly virtues do not keep a person saved but are a sign to a person as well as others that one is a disciple of Christ — his children.
And we will become holy and blameless, as per the verses,
at the redemption of our bodies. That day is not yet. These verses speak nothing of the evidence of salvation. They speak of the reality that we WILL experience if we have believed the Gospel, and in light of that reality, we OUGHT to live in accordance with that in this life. But that is no guarantee that we will do so.
The verses simply do not say that we WILL live according the Spirit in this life. It says that He will perfect us at our Resurrection and that we ought to live righteously in light of that today. But saying that we ought to live righteously is different from saying that we will live righteously.
On to John:
John writes it this way:
1 John 3:2-11, “Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. 4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. [ 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.”
I would disagree with this translation, as to most scholars. 3:6 should be rendered:
"No one who abides in him sins; and no one who sins has either seen Him or knows Him."
3:9 should say:
"No one who is born of God practices sin, for God's seed abides in him. Indeed, he is not capable of sin because he has been born of God."
There's no real debate on this.
Now, we can come back and talk about 3:10, but only after you accept the force of these statements. In your interpretation of 3:10, no one--not even you, B.W.--can claim to be born of God. In fact, you MUST be a child of Satan, because you sin, and the one born of God CANNOT sin. He is not capable of it. The Greek is very clear here, regardless of translator bias. I'll offer a different view of 3:10, but not now. We need to digest how serious a problem you have if you insist it proves who is saved and who is not by their deeds.
1 John 1:5-10, “This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
Notice the key concept here. It isn't salvation. It is "fellowship." To have fellowship is not the same as to be saved, and to be saved is not the same as having fellowship. We can talk more about the "we" group, but I'll leave it as only this: "We" refers to the Apostolic Circle. It's fairly clear that John is dealing with a group of heretics who believed that they were incapable of sin, and these heretics had come from the Jerusalem Church, claiming the authority of the Apostles. John is calling them what they are. They were the ones who said that they had no sin, and therefore, the truth was not in them.
1 John 2:1-6, “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. (NOTE: 1 John 4:21 tells us the commandment: 'And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.') 4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.”
Again, note what the key idea is here: knowing God, which is a relational term, not salvation. If I don't love my brother, I cannot say I know God. But just because I don't know God doesn't mean I'm not saved. I may be a saved person who doesn't know my God. That's just a very standard way the word "to know" is used in Greek. It's used that way in English, for that matter. Remember the song, "If you don't know me by now, you will never, never, never know me . . ."
And let's point out something that backs my point. 1 John 2:2 says that Christ is not only the propitiation for OUR sins--that is, for Christians, and more specifically, for the Apostles who held the true orthodoxy--but He is ALSO the propitiation for the whole "world." In John's theology, the world (gk.
kosmos) means "fallen humanity." The Greek is, here, again, striking. I won't go into detail, but here's the bottom line: this does NOT say that Jesus is the POTENTIAL propitiation for the whole world. It says that He IS the propitiation for the whole world. That is, the sins of ALL the world have already been forgiven--not potentially forgiven--because of Christ. Not a single person will go to Hell on account of their sin. That means that we aren't saved by receiving the atonement. Everyone, both believer and unbeliever, has received the full benefits of the atonement. What we have to do now is be restored or regenerated. We have to "pass out of death and into life" (John 5:24). It's not a sin issue. It's a life/death issue.
John 13:34-35, “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
Yes, all the world will know that we are Christ's disciples if we love; not all the world will know that we are saved if we love. Take the Bible at its words, B.W. Don't change God's Word.
Matthew 28:19, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Yes, we should teach people to observe all of Christ's commandments. But just because we teach them doesn't mean they will necessarily follow in those teachings. There is nothing in the verse that says that they will.
Moving on:
In the light of the bible, there will be preordained good works in a person's life. These virtuous works are the works of God's love shining through a true believer. For this love to shine, it will push out sin within a person. Jesus said to make disciples ,not believers, but disciples in all nations. A disciple learns to walk as Jesus walked — reflecting the grace and love of God wherever they have been assigned.
Yes, good works are preordained for us to walk in, but no verse says that we will necessarily walk in them. We are promised chastisement if we don't and rewards if we do, but there is no guarantee that we actually will. And yes, we are to make disciples and not merely believers, but that is precisely because believers--genuine believers at that--may be only believers and not disciples.
Christians are disciples. They do bumble along just as the original disciples did: arguing amongst each other who is most favor and right, fleeing from Christ when things get hot, denied Jesus three times, gave up and went back fishing after the resurrection. What did Jesus do? Give up on them? The answer is NO. He transformed them and changed them just as Abraham was changed — through increasing faith in God's great grace and callings through the course of their entire life in Christ whence they first believed.
Was Lot changed? Was Simon Magnus? What about the Pharisees of John 12:42? What about those who believed, according to Jesus' parable of the soils, but later fell away? What about those who "fell asleep" in Corinthians because they lived sinful lives, or what about the man turned over "for the destruction of his flesh?" What about those whom God takes away, those who commit the sin unto death?
Yes, God will discipline those who live in sin. But there is absolutely no guarantee that we will choose to walk in repentance. There is no verse that says we will. Only exhortations that we should.
You see Jac, there is evidence of a person being saved and it is called 'Godly love' and not 'works to earn brownie points or stay saved or prove how holier than thou is over another.' Good virtuous works (of love) are an outpouring of God's love through us. These are his works. His grace poured out into our souls. He preordained this to be and happen to everyone who truly first believes. It is the Lord working through us to do his will and his good pleasure. This is God's grace — favor bestowed upon us. It changes a person.
As noted above, no such evidence exists. There is evidence that a person is a disciple, but there is no such evidence that a person is a believer.
There all kinds of true Christians in all sorts of levels of spiritual maturity. No Christian will be ever perfectly perfect in this life. We all will slip and fall. Even big name ministers stumble and fall. They key is, did we learn and now sin that particular sin no more? Has our character been transformed into the nature of Christ's love or not? Have we learned from our failures and stumbling? Or do we misuse God's grace as an excuse to continue the same old sins?
And Christians who are disciplines and who are growing in the faith will heed the lessons God teaches them when they fall because they are abiding in Christ. But if they do not abide, then they will not grow. There will be no fruit. There will be no evidence. There is NO SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE that a saved person will necessarily do good works. There is only Scripture commanding that a saved person SHOULD do good works.
What you seem to be proclaiming, Jac, is that it is okay to continue to sin and still get in. That God did not and cannot have predestined you and I for doing good virtuous works. That we cannot love one another and that love for God is not important facet of a Christian's life. Jac, I hope I am wrong in this assessment
I never said it was OK. God will judge those who live in sin, but nowhere does that judgment mean we will necessarily turn from it. That judgment may get so harsh it leads to our death. Further, to live in sin is to lose rewards at the Bema Seat of Christ. And there are great rewards, both here and in the hereafter, for living a righteous life. But there is no Scripture anywhere that guarantees that all saved people will do good works. The Bible simply does not say that. It says, as I have been consistently showing, just the opposite.
In other words you are coming across as proclaiming that one must only have faith in their own faith to be saved. Our Faith is to be in the Grace of God that He will change us day by day, week by week, year by year conforming us into the image of his dear son, Jesus Christ.
Faith in faith will not save. Faith in Christ as my salvation will save, and ONLY that will save. But just because I trust Christ for my salvation does not mean that I will necessarily live as He commands me to. There are simply no verses that guarantee that everyone who believes in Christ will be changed by God's grace. Against this, you have the several I've already mentioned that say the opposite.
Having faith in your own faith to believe can cause a person to justify their own stagnation. There is more than a loss of rewards in heaven for such stagnation because such a person as this will stand one day before the Lord. He will be found to have buried his talent and is cast away from the presence of the Lord forever because he depended upon faith in his own faith and not Faith in God's grace
Of course if a person puts faith in their own faith they will not be saved. The object of faith is Christ, not faith itself.
Jac you believe in the precepts of predestination?
Of course. I believe every word of the Bible. I have a problem with people who don't believe John 3:16.
Roman 8:29 -30, “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
When is this conforming to the image of the Son to take place? The Resurrection, not in daily life.
Eph 1:5, “...he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will…”
And that adoption is yet future. We are predestined to receive it. We have not yet.
Eph 1:11-15: “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. 15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints…”
Here we are predestined to an inheritance. Wonderful. No object there. That inheritance will be received in Glory, not here. And, yes, the Ephesian church loved people. That wasn't evidence of their salvation. They were simply praised because they did, in fact, love people. There's nothing in the verse that says explicitly that Paul knew they were really saved because they loved people. Just not there. In fact, he praised them for loving people precisely because it was possible for believers not to love. If it is a foregone conclusion that all believers will love, then why praise them for that? That's like praising a child for getting a year older or an inch taller. It's just absurd to do such a thing. You praise a child when they achieve a goal that they may not have achieved had they not striven for it. So Paul does here.
God works all things according to his will having predestine a changed life for those that truly believe. This the bible teaches and that is why I say, based of a person's level of spiritual maturity and growth, there will be evidences that one is truly saved. God works in each persons life in omni-personal way
Then your entire position is based on a faulty view of predestination. But let's take it to its logical conclusion. For you, we are guaranteed to do good works because we are predestined, if we really are saved, to do them. Of course, there are false brothers who do false works. They look like, for awhile, they are true believers. They may have even deceived themselves into thinking that they are true believers. But they will fall away eventually, because they aren't predestined to continue in that.
Now, you've believed (you think). And you've done good works. Hopefully, those good works come because you were predestined to do them, being one of the Elect, and not because you've deluded yourself into thinking you are really saved. But in reality, you can't know whether or not your works are from God's gracious predestination or from your own deceitful heart. You can't know that until you do or don't walk in them to the end of your life. And that means that, if you are going to be intellectually honest, you can't know that you are saved.
Such is the ramifications of making good works based in a supposed connection to predestination.
Part of the gospel message is freedom form the bondage of sin and death. He whom the son sets free is free indeed. A person's life with show this as it was predestined by God to be. His counsel shall stand and the Lord will accomplish all his purposes(Isaiah 46:10) His word will not return void and it shall accomplish what God purposed and succeed in the thing which He sent it for (Isaiah 55:11).
Again, assertions. I don't agree that predestination means that we will necessarily walk in good works.
That is grace! - My faith in his grace and him working in me and changing me everyday preparing me for what actions He needs me to do for today. I stumble and fall learning from each travail that he has and never will let me go. Through each thing, I learn to change, not by my own power but through his working within me. You see, I am a work in progress as are all those whom have truly first believed.
Every believer is a work in progress, and it is grace that God is changing those WHO ABIDE IN HIM. But He doesn't change those who don't abide (John 15). Just the opposite, He cuts them away.
Spiritual maturity is relative to the believer but when God says he preordained us to walk in His good virtuous works we will learn to walk in them.
And this conclusion has been handled above. Do consider the implications of it, though, as I mentioned before. By your doctrine, no honest person can know whether or not they are saved.
Jac, you do sound like you teach that faith in one's own faith is what saves. I hope I am wrong on that.
No, grace saves. Not faith. I think I've already mentioned that before? Read Eph 2:8-10 again. We are not saved by grace, but by grace through faith.
Of course, we're still waiting on a single passage of Scripture that says, "All believers will necessarily do good works." You won't find one, because it isn't in Scripture. It's nothing more than a well-intended human addition to the Gospel . . .
2 Thess 2:13, "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter. 16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word. "
And notice that they are exhorted to stand firm. If it were true that they must necessarily stand firm by the very fact that God had predestined them to, then there is absolutely no reason for Paul did give this command. That would be like commanding your child to grow older or taller. It would simply be unnecessary, and, dare I say, heretical. For it would assume that a mere human being by his own effort could achieve God's work.
In all this, BW, you've given me absolutely nothing that says that genuine faith will necessarily produce good works. And against this, we have Jesus' parable of the four soils. We have Lot. We have Simon Magnus. We have Peter's denial of Christ. We have the Corinthian carnality. We have the believers who died because of their sin. We have the sin unto death. We have the repeated commands to remain in Christ.
Everywhere, Scripture assumes that a true Christian may be fruitless, and it warns strongly against it. Your theology has two terrible conclusions:
1. It means that the very thing Scripture so strongly warns against--a fruitless life--is, in fact, no worry at all. While Scripture takes great pains to warn us to be vigilant so that we don't fall into apathy's trap, your theology shrugs off such a warning as impossible, for no true believer can fall into that. All will do the good works that God has predestined them to do.
2. It means that no one may know that they are saved, for there is no way to differentiate between the works I do in my flesh and the works I do by God's predestination. For all I may know, I have deceived myself. I have not truly believe. I can only hope I have trusted Christ, but I cannot know until I die and have indeed persevered. Thus, assurance is impossible. Even now, you look back over your life, are you going to sit here and tell me that you have walked in ALL the good works God has ordained for you? ALL of them? You can't, because you know you haven't. Then you must conclude that either you are not guaranteed to walk in the works God prepared, or you must conclude that you did not walk in those good works precisely because God had not prepared them for you, for if He had, then you WOULD have walked in them. But if He did not prepare them for you, then the good works that you did do are actually not good works that God prepared, but only those that you did in your own strength. But if you have done no good work because God prepared them, then you can not say that you are saved. You are a false believer, so says the honest man.
It's a dangerous theology you hold to, my friend, for it teaches us to ignore the warnings in Scripture against apostasy, and it robs us of all assurance.
The good news, B.W., is that there is no such guarantee. You can trust Christ alone to save you, apart from any guarantee of future performance. You can KNOW you are saved, regardless of how you live or don't live. The good news, BW, is that you can be saved--you can KNOW you are saved--because Jesus said in John 3:16, "whoever believes in Him will not perish, but has everlasting life." That's great news, B.W. I invite you to lay down your doubts, and simply trust Jesus. Quit looking to your own works to verify your salvation, and look only to Him. I promise, His works are much more beautiful than yours, for even on your best day, your BEST works are as filthy rags and can offer no comfort to you. Stop looking to yourself, my friend, for you assurance. Look only to Christ, and believe only His words.
"Whoever believes has everlasting life."
Or
"Whoever believes AND does good works because of that believe has everlasting life."
Which statement do you believe? One is the Gospel. The other is a lie.
God bless