B. W. wrote:Jac, after reading your response to my last post, I can see that you totally misunderstood what I was conveying in that post. Maybe I did not write clear enough. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as I may not have been clear enough.
Let me state that in no way was I being derogatory toward you personally or your views. In fact we both agree
that when one believes — you are saved. What I was trying to convey is that when you believe,
let me qualify this as 'truly believe', there comes a change in a person's life. You can call this sanctification if you like. It is this that makes the difference between the children of darkness and the child of God. That road of sanctification reveals the difference.
True, new believers may not make this road as their time of earth may end shortly after conversion but there is still a change, rather a transformation. When one is born again something does happen to person. I hope you are not denying that. Born of the indwelling Holy Spirit does something to a person.
Your point is true —
at the moment of believing is what saves you. I do not deny that.
I do not think many people reading this would deny that either. You seem to read into what I wrote in last post things that are not there and you do the same with what others wrote too. This irritates people as you put words in people's mouths things they do not mean or are really saying.
I call this - leading the witness.
There are
true believers — why do I say that? For something to be true the opposite (false) must be there to make truth true.
Bible speaks of false brethren, does it not? If there are false brethren, then there are true.
If there is true belief then there also is false belief. Believing in Santa Claus would be a false belief. The Pharisees of Jesus time had a false religious belief even though it was derived from the same scriptures Jesus taught from.
There are true believers and false believers. Add brethren for believers if you need scripture for support on what just wrote and you'll get the picture.
That is why I can say and qualify those that truly believe from those that falsely believe. There are true brethren and there are false brethren. For something to be true an opposite of true must exist. Therefore, there is
true believing as opposed to
false believing. Bible has many examples of people believing in false things.
What I described in my last posting was to explain what 'follows after' someone first believes:
Sanctification. This process is different for each person. For some reason, unknown to me, is that you appear incapable of making this distinction. No offense intended but your extremist view is what gives OSAS a bad rap (name). Sad but true.
You totally read into what I wrote things not intended nor suggested in an attempt to '
lead the witness.' There is not a lot of difference in Mounce's and TWOT exposition of the Hebrew word for believe and faith. They both bring out the same points, however in the writers own words. There is no easy definition to define belief / faith.
So I'll propose this too you:
What is belief — how does one believe? Under your definition of believing, believing would be considered a work. To get around this, then the next thing I often heard during such discussion as this is that a form of the doctrine of election is used to get around this obstacle. I have heard often that God makes you believe so that believing is not a work of human agency in any shape, manner, or form.
“
He (God) puts the want too in your wanter” as I heard a radio preacher put it once. To follow this logic further to its conclusion, you'll discover that you are either selected or not as no works are allowed — not even the 'work of believing.'
However, it takes brain power (human agency at work) to hear and to become convinced beyond all doubt. Bioelectrical impulses are at work in the human brain for us to hear, think, believe, etc. That
is human effort, hmmm, human agency at work — is it not? No works allowed in the equation!
And I also have heard that it does not matter if one remains an adulterer, fornicator, or vile person —
hey all they need only to believe and they are in. No change necessary or allowed. You clearly stated this in your discussion of Abraham.
That certainly is Good News. All you need is a loud speaker to proclaim the following (which encapsulates your doctrine):
“Come all come everyone: believe in Jesus as John 3:16 states and you'll have eternal life. Escape Hell — believe! No change necessary, remain as you are. You can rape and pillage, lie and cheat, steal and profane — you are in and heaven bound because you believed. The work of sanctification ol Bryan (B. W.) wrote about — why that is not the gospel! He's a heretic!
However if you ever doubt your salvation — you are lost doomed — doomed! Never were you saved! Never!! You may lose a reward in heaven if you remain in sin but who cares — you believed without doubting and are heaven bound. That work, err, grace saved you! Come all come one! No need to obey God at all just believe but you must believe without ever doubting!"
For something to be true a false also must exist. Believe without doubting comes about how? What work of human agency is involved in this? The Brain at work processing this? We learn not to doubt through the process of sanctification and repentance. I think your definition of
Works is eschewed and off. The process of reformation comes through the hand of God after you believe - he will not let you go. That what set's apart the children of God and the children of the devil. A child of God faith in the Lord grows during the process, it does not remain stagnate but bears good fruit.
This Reminds me of a true story I heard a year ago: A Young teenage women believed and was saved. She doubted not and became years later a young woman. She was brutally gang raped by a bunch of thugs. After the assault she doubted God and as she said, hated God for allowing this to happen, she turned away from the Lord and burned her bibles. Became involved in all kinds of anti Christian things.
According to you, she never believed and was never saved because she doubted! Imagine her doubt could override the love of God and his grace! She later, as I have heard, said she never lost the pull of God drawing her back to him. Later, she came back to the Lord after a bit of grief. The lord never let her go. She started a ministry for women who have been raped and battered and can reach them like none other having gone through what they did. I wish I could remember her name and ministry. Maybe someone may have heard of her could chime in.
With all due respect Jac — I guess Jesus did not teach the
correct gospel:
Luke 24:46-47, “
and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem."
Matthew 28:19-20, “
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Nor did Peter:
Acts 11:18, “
When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."
Nor did Paul:
Acts 20:21, "...testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. "
Act 26:20-21, “...but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. 21 For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me.”
Yes there is Godly grief that comes in many diverse ways as I wrote about in my last post
2 Co 7:10, “
For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death."
The tones of your discourses appear to be simply quarrelsome for no other reason than just to be:
2 Timothy 2:24-26,”
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.”
According to your system of belief, I have to ask, is the entire bible is wrong to ask us to obey God and bear the fruit of repentance because we believed - truly believed?
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Bible quotes from ESV
) we can believe in JC and next day murder like crazy. Then we may die, we go in hell as we chose to be against God. Hence, we were not saved in THE FIRST PLACE. One can only be sure of salvation where there is no going back (e.g. one minute before death when the person to die is not in full conscience and unable to commit a deadly sin). However, at ANY time it can happen even to a devote christian he commits a deadly sin and doesnt confess/ask for forgiveness. Then if the woman who was raped - had she not lived after that, I guess God would say she goes to hell as she "never believed in the first place" - as she could "lose" her faith in JC.
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