The Rapture....and a bunch of "dead" Christians?

[nickelodeon]

I actually have a different question. When we die, will we still remember or recollect the people we knew or the places we went?

I see a bunch of false doctrine be taught and people will be looking for this stuff with hope and it will never happen. The Bible tells us everything we need to know. People dont know anything when they are dead for they are dead. They are not alive in any form or fashion. That is what death is. You cant change the meaning to suit a false doctrine. Lets look at the insurmountable evidence form the good book itself.

The book of Genesis is about our origin. It tells us clearly that man was a created being: that is, he depended upon a Creator for his very life. He was not responsible for his own origin. This is how it happened:

"The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7).

Notice man's lowly origin: from the ground. Genesis tells us also (at 6:17 and 7:21) that the animals too share "the breath of life" with mankind. But it is the expression "a living soul" which claims our attention and teaches us the first and essential condition for understanding the Bible: we must understand Bible terms in its own sense, and not in ours. Now to many people "the soul" suggests some spirit within man which "survives the death of the body". But that is not at all how it is used in Genesis, where the word translated "soul" is used of the animals as well. In Genesis 1:21,24 it is translated "living creature". The Revised Standard Version (R.S.V.) renders "living soul" as "living being". So does the New International Version (N.l.V.). The New English Bible (N.E.B.) has "a living creature".

The conclusion is clear: Genesis is telling us that by origin and nature man was created a living being. Of course, he has greater powers of mind than have the animals, but basically his nature is the same as theirs.

". . in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return" (3:19). Genesis

"All flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, of cattle, of beast . . . and every man; all in whose nostrils was the breath of life ...died" (7:21-22).

Psalms uses the word ruach here for breath which means spirit
"Thou (God) takest away their breath/spirit/ruach/pnuema, they die, and return to their dust" (104:29).

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath . . . All go unto one place: all are of the dust and all turn to dust again" (3:19-21). Ecclesiastes

"Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes downward to the earth?" (3:22).Ecclesiastes

That is, who can tell whether there is any difference? Incidentally, the word translated "spirit" here is the very same as is rendered "breath" in v.1 9; which shows that "spirit" here is the life resulting from breathing. It ceases when breathing stops. Solomon was the wisest man to ever live and today people claim to know more than him.

The "soul" can die. The Psalmist, speaking of the judgement God brought upon the proud Egyptians by the ten plagues, says: "He (God) spared not their soul from death"; and then immediately adds: "and gave their life over to the pestilence" (Psalm 78:50), showing that the soul and the life are the same thing.

Twice God declares through Ezekiel: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezek. 18:3,20). Samson, in his final appeal to God, prays: "Let me die with the Philistines" (Judges 16:30). But the margin of the A.V. shows that what Samson literally said was: "Let my soul die . . ."

The soul then, is the person, the living being. When he perishes, the soul, or life, perishes with him.

David prays that God will deliver him, for "in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" (Psalm 6:5).

Psalm 115 says the same: "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" (v. 17).

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything . . . Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished . . . Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest" (9:5-10).

The place of the dead is consistently described in these emphatic passages as "in his earth" (the dust of the ground from which man was made), "in the grave" and "in silence".


"Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:1-2). Sleep is used for death as well not that the people are alive but they will be there in the grave until they are awakened by the shout of the archangel when Christ returns.

". . . The hour is coming, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his (Jesus') voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of condemnation" (John 5:28-29). (Jesus' "all" is the same as Daniel's "many": it is all who during their lifetime have "heard the voice of the Son of God", v.25.)

"God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him, should not perish, but have everlasting life" (3:16). This verse make complete sense when it is understood what perishing is=to: the grave.

Writing to the believers in Ephesus, he tells them that before they came to know and believe in Christ, they were "without Christ having no hope, and without God in the world" (Eph.2:1 2). Why do you think they were hopeless in the world? Because they didnt have the access to the resurrection.

"What is your life? For ye are a vapour that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away" (James 4:14, R.V.). The R.S.V. and the N.I.V. have : "You are a mist that appears . . . and then vanishes."

The so called rapture verse becomes clear now as well. The dead in Christ will rise first, and those alive at the time when Christ comes will be changed. Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God so Paul tells them something else that those who are alive will be changed from mortal (dying beings) into immortal (beings that cant die) and from corruptible beings into incorruptible beings. This is the first resurrection and the only resurrection. Those that are Christs at his coming will rule the world with him until he subdues all his enemies under his feet the last enemy being death then he will hand the Kingdom to the Father and God will again be able to come to Earth again and reign and walk in the cool of the day as he did in Genesis. What a wonderful Gospel message.

"I would not have you ignorant, brethren, concernmg them which are asleep (he means in death), that ye sorrow not, even as the rest who have no hope .... For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven ... with the voice of the archangel and the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise . . ." (1 Thess. 4:13,16)

The Apostle Paul devotes a whole chapter to asserting that the dead will rise. He makes a special point of arguing that if Christ did not rise from the dead, then no one else can either. In that case, "they also which are fallen asleep in Christ have perished" (1 Cor. 15:18). (Note the implication here: if in this case even the believers in Christ have "perished", how much more those who have not believed!) John 3:16 not perish but have everlasting life

But there is no doubt about it, says Paul: Christ did rise from the dead (see his impressive list of actual witnesses in verses 3-8 of this chapter); and so Christ has "become the first-fruits of them that are asleep" (v. 21). Twice within three verses Paul has described the dead as "asleep". Such is his agreement with Daniel.

In the remainder of this chapter Paul declares that for the faithful dead there is to be, after their resurrection, a change of nature: "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." Our present nature is mortal and corruptible; but when the dead are raised, they are to be "changed": for "this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality". This is the way "death is swallowed up in victory" (vv. 50-54).

"I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Rom. 1:16).

I will probably get alot of replies about this and that verse but I will patiently go over all of them with you.

In Jesus Name,
Nick

[Byblos]

Nick,

I just have one question for you: why does the bible forbid necromancy?

[nickelodeon]

Nick,

I just have one question for you: why does the bible forbid necromancy?

When a person goes to a charlatan they are at listening to someone other than God about spiritual matters(false prophets have the same effect). These people are fake and cant truly communicate with the dead. The dead are dead. Only God can raise the dead. To say that some woman in Endor can summon the dead would be equating her with God. This is your first error.

I know you didnt actually state this but to believe in such things as summoners, you would be degrading God as to less than the only Potentate. This is what happens when you believe in a satan creature that is tempting everyone, you fight againstsomething that isnt there.

Saul supposedly sent all of these summoners out of Israel, but shortly after God quit dealing with King Saul, he immediately went to one whom he knew was still in the country. Upon arrival the woman is in fear for her life because Saul had previously sent all of the charlatans out of the country. After Saul confirms to her that he will not do anything to her, Saul asks her to summon Samuel. Note Samuel was know all throughout the country. The woman immediately sees something in which Saul cannot see and never sees through the entire story. He never hears the voice of Samuel only the voice of the woman supposedly speaking Samuels words. This is one of the oldest tricks in the book. You cant see the so called dead that has been summoned and you cant hear it either.

This is very dangerous stuff for those who want to follow God. This is how false doctrines get into our lives and snuffs out the simple truth that God has given us. All the charlatans are the same they cant really do what they are claiming like Simon in Acts who had the people fooled. Ghosts, spirits, demons and the like have no real existence. Egyptian/Babylonian and Greek mythology have been shunned by God throughout the entire bible and to embrace even one facet of these false theologies makes you a partaker of the same.

This is why god forbids necromancy.

[B. W.]

...I see a bunch of false doctrine be taught and people will be looking for this stuff with hope and it will never happen. The Bible tells us everything we need to know. People dont know anything when they are dead for they are dead. They are not alive in any form or fashion. That is what death is. You cant change the meaning to suit a false doctrine. Lets look at the insurmountable evidence form the good book itself.

Okay Nick let's look at ECC 3, ECC9, Isaiah 26 and Isaiah 38:

PART ONE:

Ecc 3:11, “He [God] has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.”

Then in Ecc 3:14 it states: “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.”

Verse 14 in direct context defines verse 11 as God placing eternity into one's heart because whatever God does endures forever. What image and likeness was humanity made? Guess what - whatever God does endures forever. This indeed lines up with verse 14 thus defining verse 14 as, God putting eternity into man's heart. You cannot escape this nor twist it to mean something else. God placed eternity in men and women because what he does endures or last forever as we are in whose image and likeness made as described in Genesis chapter One?

Note what Ecc 3:17-19 says, “ I said in my heart God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. 18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts."

The bible says elsewhere — None Righteous - no not one: remember who said that?

These verses are revealing that God test to see who his children are and who are like beast. Do not these scriptures say this? Note the writer mentions the righteous and the wicked and that both shall die. See verse 19: “For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.” Note the reference of beast in context of these verses refers to human beings that are like beast.

Next -- Ecc 3:20, “All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return”

This simply means the body is laid to rest after death and is buried in the ground returning to dust [very plain meaning] so now the next question made makes more sense in light of context of verses 11 and 14 and humans referred to as beast in context:

Ecc 3:21-22, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? 22, “So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?”

This verse plainly reveals that only God knows who will go upward to him and who, like the beast [the wicked] will go down into the earth where the bible teaches where Sheol, the pit, is. I like the last sentence of Ecc 3: “Who can bring him to see what will be after him?”

Jesus answers this in John 3:14-15: “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life..."

Jesus said in John 14, “I go prepare a place for you.” How could he prepare a place for anyone if 'dead is dead?'

Let's look at Psalms 146:4, “When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.” Again please do not take scriptures out of context by proof texting an annihilationist meaning into it. The context proves otherwise:

Psalms 146:3, “Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.” In other words — why should I trust the people of the world — there is no salvation in them. Whose breath departs? Vv 4, “When his [princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation] breath departs, he [princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation] returns to the earth… In Ecc 3 who returns to the earth? The beast — the wicked to sheol, the grave the pit. It is sad so many simply neglect biblical symbolism.

Now look at Ezekiel 32: and note — Pharaoh saw, The mighty ones were speaking in Hell, Sheol, the pit. Yes, their dead physical bodies rot and return to the dust; yet, their hearts — spirit - lives on fully conscious as it is written: Ecc 3:11, 14, “...He [God] has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.”…14 “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.”

Again: Ecc 3:17-19 says, “I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. 18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts.”

Ecc 3:21-22, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? 22, “So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?”

The bible does not teach, 'when you are dead you are dead' referring to soul sleep or annihilationism. Jesus speaks on Hell in 46 times. Bible does indeed teach that there is life immediately after death either with God or without him in Hades.

Matthew 25:46, “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ESV

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown's Commentary writes correctly about this verse:

…but the righteous into life eternal — that is, “life everlasting.” The word in both clauses, being in the original the same, should have been the same in the translation also. Thus the decisions of this awful day will be final, irreversible, unending.

Mark 9:47-48, “And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown's Commentary writes correctly about this verse:
Mar 9:48 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched — See on Mat_5:30; The “unquenchablesness” of this fire has already been brought before us (see on Mat_3:12); and the awfully vivid idea of an undying worm, everlastingly consuming an unconsumable body, is taken from the closing words of the evangelical prophet (Isa_66:24), which seem to have furnished the later Jewish Church with its current phraseology on the subject of future punishment (see Lightfoot).

Ezekiel 32:21-27 in this verse how can the dead speak if they are asleep or non-exist?

Jonah 2:2 how could he cry out if he non-existed?

Matthew 17:3 Moses and Elijah appeared — how could they have spoken if they were annihilated or were fast soul - sleeping?

Luke 16:22-30 — Abraham spoke to the rich man in hell. This does not sound like they were annihilated does it? Why would Jesus use a parable not based on solid truth and facts? - To do other wise for any other reason would have made Jesus sin.

Luke 23:43 — Jesus said what the thief on the cross? This also backs up Luke 16:22-31 as true. Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19) and lead captivity captive (Eph 4:8). Jesus did not go to these places asleep in soul sleep or in an annihilated state. Please note that this thief went to Paradise with Jesus very much alive and not to sheol, hell, the pit.

Acts 7:59 what did Stephen say? He did not cry out — 'oh gave receive my breath' but rather cried out: “Jesus receive my spirit!”

Philippians 1:23 Paul said it would be better to depart to be with the Lord. If this happened Paul expected to be with Christ and not soul-sleeping not annihilated but rather existing on after death residing with Jesus.

Job 26 speaks of the shades trembling in sheol. How could they be if they were annihilated? Read Job 26:4-6, “With whose help hast thou uttered words? And whose spirit [breath 5397] came forth from thee? 5 The shades [7496] tremble [2342-twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained] beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction [11-Abbadon - a place where ruination is brought out, or drawn out of a person — exposing a person as he/she really is - their moral rot slowly uncovered] hath no covering [3682-concealment, masking].” JPS

Numbers 16:29-33 speaks of Korah going down alive into hell.

Psalms 55:15, "(55:16) May He incite death against them, let them go down alive into the nether-world; for evil is in their dwelling, and within them." JPS — pretty plain language used here of both death and going alive into the nether world…

Revelations 5:5 John speaks to an elder in heaven — this elder existed then and was not soul-sleeping nor was he annihilated.

In fact Annihilationism has it roots firmly entrenched in the philosophy of Atomist / materialist traditions like Epicurus. For example, Wikipedia stated that, “Epicurus…believed that death was not to be feared. When a man dies, he does not feel the pain of death because he no longer is and he therefore feels nothing. Therefore, as Epicurus famously said, "death is nothing to us." When we exist death is not, and when death exists we are not. All sensation and consciousness ends with death and therefore in death there is neither pleasure nor pain. The fear of death arises from the false belief that in death there is awareness.”

Annihilationism's doctrine contorts scripture to redefine word meanings to bolster doctrine derived by men as the historical record proves.

When the followers of Korah went down alive into Hell, they went down alive. Jesus said that there was a certain rich man that died and went to hell, alive. When God causes mortal life to cease, it is for judgment. God knows these individuals have reached the point where they will never repent and are totally corrupt. This was found in them, not placed within by God. He knows all. He is just. They are sent to wait the final verdict in the depths of hell, alive.

God consigns such to the same place prepared for the devil and his angels, forever. Thus God is not a murderer as life continues after the mortal ceases. God can slay the mortal wicked justly without violation of life he gave and his word given in Genesis Chapter One. So in a sense when God slays the mortal wicked — these go into judgment. Before this time, God pleads and warns and exhorts people everywhere to repent through the message of the cross. He offers a way of escape as Jesus paid the penalty for the sin of us all. This is the way of God - as he is merciful and full of grace and truth.

The proof text scriptures that annihilationist use are contrary to Jesus' teaching on hell as well as the bible in both the Old and New Testament descriptions that that there is indeed an afterlife by distorting word meanings in the text to support the ancient Greek philosophic atomist thought.

Here are a few bible verses showing that life after death is a reality:

Ezekiel 32:31, "When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD."

---Pharaoh is in the pit as well as others and they see---

Ezekiel 32:2, "The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: 'They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword." ESV-

---Those that go into the pit hear!---

Isaiah 14:9-10, "Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. 10 All of them will answer and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!" RSV

Job 26:5-6, "The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering." JPS

---The dead - shades - tremble - yes movement is consciousness and they also speak...

Proverbs 21:16, "The man that strayeth out of the way of understanding shall rest in the congregation of the shades." JPS

---A congregation of the shades? How can this be if only one person is buried in their own graves individually?----

Psalms 55:15, "(55:16) May He incite death against them, let them go down alive into the nether-world; for evil is in their dwelling, and within them." JPS

Numbers 16:29-33, "If these men die the death of all men or if they suffer the fate of all men, then the LORD has not sent me. 30"But if the LORD brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the LORD." 31 As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions.
33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.” NASB

---Yes from this example and Psalms 55:15 people do go into Sheol alive---

Proverbs 15:24, "The path of life leads upward for the prudent, that he may turn away from Sheol beneath."

Ecclesiastes 3:21, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?”

2 Th 1:9, " They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might ." ESV

Revelations 20:13-15, “And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” ESV

Revelations 22:15, "...Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

The Bible does indeed teach that there is life after death either with the Lord or living in everlasting judgment in the place designed for the devil and his followers.
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[B. W.]

PART Two:Let's now look at ECC 9:3-6:

Ecclesiastes 9:3, “This is an evil in all that is done under the sun that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.”

Ecclesiastes 9:4-5, “But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.”

He who is joined to the living Lord has hope. Though we are dogs God transforms those that have joined themselves to the Lord into kings and priest and we are remembered in the book of life where our names are inscribed. Those that join death's lion and share its pride have no hope. Satan roars like a lion seeking whom to devour. Principle: join your self to the living Lord and forsake the pride of the dead lion.

Why — because: Ecclesiastes 9:6, “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.”

They have no more share in the land of mortals and this means they have been cut of from mortal life, separated from it, and no more share in it. Instead they found a place where the wicked have no rest, a place where the dead lion devours, where they are banished from God and hope forever. Where they are held in punishment awaiting the resurrection of the dead which raises the existing spiritual body of a person to his/her final domain.

Look again at Ecc 9:6, “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun: Which explains what is forgotten and why no memory on earth will remain of such persons mentioned as they have no more share in anything done under the sun — in other words they do not come back to this planet — this mortal life under the sun they'll no nothing about any more.

I do not want to sound rude but go to a graveyard and read these verses out loud and you may get a better understanding of what these verses mean and note which graves have the most flowers compared with those that do not. How many people lived in ancient times or even 200 years ago? Are not their thoughts and dreams forgotten? No memory of them remains. Unless there were famous and even then, time moves on and their history will fade too.

Please note that the doctrine of the Resurrection of the dead involves the natural body dying and the spiritual waiting to be raised either to glorification to live with God forever without sin or everlasting contempt — recompense in the lake of fire. The Resurrection of the dead, you could say, seals the deal.

Read 1Corinthians 15:42-58

Many mistakenly confuse the event of physical death and its immediate judgment with the resurrection of the dead and the final sentencing of judgment. Doing so, they mistakenly combine the two events into some kind of sleep state nonsense and or annihilationism.

The bible uses images that people can relate too. For example, the dead look asleep. To awake means arise from slumber. When you slumber, are you dead or still alive? Do you dream? The dead will never know this mortal life again — they will awake first to judgment and wait for the final sentencing. Immediately after death they experience in the prison, pit, Sheol, grave, Hades their own living nightmares reaping what they have sown until the final sentencing takes them to a new living reality forever in the lake of fire.

Do not believe this? What of Hebrews 9:27 then? - “ And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment…” Immediately after death comes what? The word 'Judgment' translated here means trial, separation process, selection process; a verdict arrived at, a sentence commuted. One can correlate that the prison, pit, Sheol described in the bible is liken to a holding center, or intake area, where inmates are temporarily housed till final sentence is decreed and then they go serve their sentence elsewhere.

After all, 'there is no rest for the wicked!' 'And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment!' This is a true statement: “the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment.”

The doctrines of soul sleep and annihilationism's 'when your dead you are dead' are false and based upon the ways of the world. God's word cuts to the heart of the matter.

Instead of trying to use scripture to prove soul sleep or annihilationism why just not simply come out and be honest and state why you hate the concept that the bible so clearly teaches about hell and the afterlife?

You, who hold these doctrines, do you find it repugnant that God can send people to hell for eternal punishment forever. Is that it or something else? What is the real heart felt reason? We can discuss this rationally as long as you are honest but if not — you'll never discover truth that will set your heart free about such eternal matters.

All bible quotes from ESV
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[B. W.]

PART Three: Let's now look at Isaiah 26 and Isaiah 38:

This brings us to another verse in the Old Testament that uses the Hebrew word translated as 'shades' continuing on in the afterlife. The bible does indeed teach that when a person dies they move into another realm either where they'll be at home with the Lord or residing in ruin within what is described as the pit, sheol, hell, hades in the bible. The physical body will decay and turn to dust but the Spiritual will return to the Lord to be judged. The bible points this out just as we have seen so far in this study. Note: Philippians1:23, 2 Corinthians 5:1-8

This brings us to the eighth verse in the Old Testament that uses the Hebrew word translated shades in Isaiah 26:14. Problem those have that believe in annihilationism or soul sleep is that they try to make the proverbial cart lead the horse as we shall soon see.

Note context that qualifies the meaning of Isaiah 26:14 and that would be Isaiah 26:10-12, “Let favor be shown to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness will he deal wrongfully, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD 11 LORD, Thy hand was lifted up, yet they see not; they shall see with shame Thy zeal for the people; yea, fire shall devour Thine adversaries. 12 LORD, Thou wilt establish peace for us; for Thou hast indeed wrought all our works for us.” JPS

Verse 10 explains why universalism cannot work. I placed the Strong Concordance number next to the words for the readers own research in the next verses.

Isaiah 26:13-14: “O LORD our God, other lords beside Thee have had dominion over us; but by Thee only do we make mention of Thy name. 14 The dead [4191 The dead cut off ones] live not [2421-will not be restored to a life of health], the shades rise not [1077/6965 - arise, become powerful, rise up strong and oppressive again]; to that end hast Thou punished [6485-visited mustered together for punishment] and destroyed [8045 destroy - ruin - cut-off] them, causing all memory of these to perish.” JPS

Hebrew word order for Isaiah 26:14 sheds more light on meaning of this verse so often misused by annihilationist; “4191- The dead those executed cut off ones -1077 / 2421-will not be restored to a life of health, 6965 / 1077 these shades — will not arise, become powerful, rise up strong nor ever be oppressive again - 3651 therefore — 6485 mustered these together to visit punishment -8045 and destroying — 6 vanishing/perishing - 3605 all - 2143 memory of them."

In other words, this is telling the reader not to fear that their oppressors can arise from the grave and torment them again. In other words, Hollywood has it wrong — anyone like Jason or Freddie can never arise and inflict pain again and again and again. Nor can Hitler, nor Nero, nor any real iniquitous person. These verses describe the wicked as being already mustered together somewhere. Guess where? The bible reveals where describing it as - The Pit, Sheol, Hell, Hades.

These verses plainly reveal that the wicked that cause so much sorrow and woe will be cut off from mortal life and God's mercy forever, never to arise and inflict pain and suffering again. That is the meaning of Isaiah 26:14 per context.
When the verse speaks of vanishing/perishing all memory of them please note that Revelations 21:4 explains what this means very well: “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." ESV

Now look at Isaiah 26:19-21, “Thy dead [the righteous dead because Thy qualifies these as belonging to God] shall live, my dead bodies shall arise - awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust - for Thy dew is as the dew of light, and the earth shall bring to life the shades [context means the righteous dead - God's people who have died and are shades]. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee; hide thyself for a little moment, until the indignation be over past. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of His place to visit upon the inhabitants of the earth their iniquity; the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” JPS

As the bible describes elsewhere that the Spiritual part of men and women continue on after death they will be reunited with a physical body again; thus the earth shall bring to life (forming new bodies from the earth) to the shades. The righteous 'shades' will be reunited with a psychical body. Then it speaks of God's people hiding until the indignation be over past because the Lord comes forth to visit judgment upon the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity.

Now note what Paul writes and confirms what I just pointed out:

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, “…in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.” ESV

1 Thessalonians 4:13, “But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.” ESV

The message is simple —

Daniel 12:1-3, "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt [1860-aversion, abomination, abhorrence — not annihilation; not non-existence but everlasting contempt, aversion, abhorrence]. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.” ESV

John 5:24-29, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment[/i].” ESV

Notice that Jesus said the hour is now here when the dead will hear — they are not asleep or in a non-being state if they can hear.

In Closing:

Let's look at Isaiah 38:17-18, “Behold, it was for my welfare that I had great bitterness; but in love you have delivered my life from the pit of destruction, for you have cast all my sins behind your back. 18 For Sheol does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness.”

Those down in the pit 'do not hope' and to 'do not hope' describes a state of conscious being. A state of sleep of nothingness or non-being cannot define a state of being without hope. Being without hope is a living emotion. To have emotions means you are alive and conscious of the fact that those in Sheol have no hope for God's faithfulness as they missed God's salvation of casting away the sins of them that believe in him. Those that missed this, the wicked experience no more hope. This describes consciousness after death.

A person being awake and conscious in hell and the afterlife is furthered explained in Isaiah 57:20-21, “But the wicked are like the tossing sea; for it cannot be quiet, and its waters toss up mire and dirt. 21 There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."

For annihilationism or soul sleep to be true would mean this verse is in error as these states describe rest of non-being and yet God says. “there is no rest for the wicked.”

Proverbs 2:21-22, “For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the whole-hearted shall remain in it. 22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the land, and the faithless shall be plucked up out of it.” JPS
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[B. W.]

Nick,

Your last 2 posts in this thread were deleted for violation of board purpose and discussion guidelines. Clearly you are not here to engage in conversion nor are you here as a sincere seeker. You are here to proselytize and recruit. Your arguments are nothing new; we have seen them all and, dare I say, from much abler master christadelphians. We are very familiar with your belief system and do not consider it as orthodox Christian, regardless of what you and your group consider yourselves. This board is not for you, please move on.

Byblos,
Moderator.

I second Byblos comment made on another thread applies to this one too.

Let me further add...

Christadelphian doctrine is a false gospel, twisting the word of God much the same way as Satan did when he tempted Adam and Eve and later Christ. Of course Christadelphian do not believe that Satan is really a real independent being or any threat. Their view of the devil, or devils, is that these are just someone's own personal psychological evil twin

Nick, I know you'll read this but Christadelphian doctrine does not permit independent thought. You should come to Christ Jesus and truly be born again and escape the wrath of God that faces you for leading people astray.

B. W. Melvin
Moderator
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[Byblos]

At least in this thread you attempted to answer B.W.'s posts (though you failed miserably but I'll let him answer that), that's why your posts weren't deleted.

As for this,

Nick,

I just have one question for you: why does the bible forbid necromancy?

When a person goes to a charlatan they are at listening to someone other than God about spiritual matters(false prophets have the same effect). These people are fake and cant truly communicate with the dead. The dead are dead. Only God can raise the dead. To say that some woman in Endor can summon the dead would be equating her with God. This is your first error.

I know you didnt actually state this but to believe in such things as summoners, you would be degrading God as to less than the only Potentate. This is what happens when you believe in a satan creature that is tempting everyone, you fight againstsomething that isnt there.

Saul supposedly sent all of these summoners out of Israel, but shortly after God quit dealing with King Saul, he immediately went to one whom he knew was still in the country. Upon arrival the woman is in fear for her life because Saul had previously sent all of the charlatans out of the country. After Saul confirms to her that he will not do anything to her, Saul asks her to summon Samuel. Note Samuel was know all throughout the country. The woman immediately sees something in which Saul cannot see and never sees through the entire story. He never hears the voice of Samuel only the voice of the woman supposedly speaking Samuels words. This is one of the oldest tricks in the book. You cant see the so called dead that has been summoned and you cant hear it either.

This is very dangerous stuff for those who want to follow God. This is how false doctrines get into our lives and snuffs out the simple truth that God has given us. All the charlatans are the same they cant really do what they are claiming like Simon in Acts who had the people fooled. Ghosts, spirits, demons and the like have no real existence. Egyptian/Babylonian and Greek mythology have been shunned by God throughout the entire bible and to embrace even one facet of these false theologies makes you a partaker of the same.

This is why god forbids necromancy.

Forgive the express but this is all a bunch of doodoo. What you're saying is that the bible is forbidding us from a specific practice lest we fall for a lie? Do you really believe that's all there is to necromancy? Throughout scripture there are ample warnings against false, deceitful prophets; why single out necromancy? The reason is that communication with the dead is possible and is strictly forbidden precisely because it is possible. Not because we're just falling for some conjurer's deceit. The danger is not just in believing a lie for lies are all around us, from atheists who claim God doesn't exist to agnostics who question their very existence, to a multitude of religions, each of which claiming to be the true one. No, the danger in necromancy is much deeper that that and lies in the fact that information can be obtained from that part of the world and can affect our faith very deeply and very negatively. That is why it is forbidden. But then again, if you see that then it would negate your entire belief system, wouldn't it?

[B. W.]

At least in this thread you attempted to answer B.W.'s posts (though you failed miserably but I'll let him answer that), that's why your posts weren't deleted....

We were going around in circles Byblos and Nick's Christadelphian doctrine poses a risk to new believers. If I responded to him, it would require me to repeatedly post prior my post over and over again as the Bible is clear on the matter of life continuing on after death.

In the OT, if the Shades, the dead, can hear, speak, tremble, feel, that expresses consciousness not annihilation or soul sleep.

Follow the logic:

In the OT —

1-The departed (dead-shades) hear, speak, tremble, feel, etc.
2-We who are not also hear, speak, tremble, feel, etc
3-Therefore those who have died are still alive in another realm

Result: Truth — the afterlife does indeed exist right after one dies.

Fact, only a poor soul blinded by allegiance to personal opinion and bad doctrine would attempt to discredit the logic that the bible presents. Nick was doing so here and that is why I deleted his post as he already has posted these views prior to this and these are still on this thread as well as on other threads too.
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