A "faith" that works

[Jac3510]

I thought I'd open up a new thread to deal with the verses people are using to contradict the Gospel. BW gave a short list, so here's a short explanation of each. Before we jump into the discussions, follow the logic of the Gospel:

1. Everyone who believes has everlasting life.
2. I believe.
3. Therefore, I know I have everlasting life.

Against this,

1. Everyone who believes has everlasting life.
2. I don't know that I have everlasting life.
3. Therefore, I don't know if I have believed.

Of course (3) is absurd. No one doesn't know if they believe something or not. In fact, to say that you don't know whether or not you believe something is to say that you don't believe it, for to believe something is to affirm it. If you don't know if you affirm something, then you are not affirming it, and therefore, you don't affirm it. Thus,

1. Everyone who believes the Gospel knows that they have everlasting life.
2. Some doctrines deny one the ability to know that one has everlasting life.
3. Therefore, doctrines that deny one the ability to know that one has everlasting life deny the Gospel.

The bottom line: any doctrine that denies complete assurance is a false Gospel.

BUT

1. Good works necessarily follow true faith.
2. I do not know that I will or will not do good works tomorrow.
3. Therefore, I do not know if I have true faith.

It necessarily follows from (1) that assurance is impossible, and if assurance is impossible, then (1) denies the Gospel.

What, then, of the passages that declare that good works are necessary? The bottom line is that NONE of them say that good works are a necessary result of true faith. NONE of them say that good works are necessary for salvation. What they say is that good works are necessary for rewards and fellowship with God. Concerning, then, a few examples that BW provided in the other thread:

Luke 24:46-47, “ and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem."

A person doesn't have to be forgiven of sin in order to go to heaven. If it is, then if Christians don't forgive others, then they don't go to heaven. On the contrary, forgiveness of sin is for the purpose of proper fellowship with God.

Matthew 28:19-20, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Yes, we are to make DISCIPLES, and DISCIPLES are to observe everything COMMANDED by Christ. But to be saved is not the same thing as to be a disciple.

Acts 11:18, “When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."

Repentance = change of mind, not turning from sin. They changed their mind about the source of their salvation.

Acts 20:21, "...testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. "

Two separate conditions. Repentance towards God means giving up idolatry, and faith in Jesus Christ is, of course, trusting Him for everlasting life. Certainly, if a person does not believe that Jesus is the One True God, then they cannot put their faith in Him, but that does not mean to turn from sins in order to trust Jesus.

Act 26:20-21, “...but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. 21 For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me.”

Two issues: first, they should change their mind AND turn to God, and second, they should PERFORM DEEDS to demonstrate that COMMITMENT. Of course, committing to God does not save. Much less does PERFORMING DEEDS to prove to men your commitment save. Paul was stating something obvious. All people everywhere should give up their sin, commit their lives to God, and live to please Him. But that's not for salvation, nor does Paul say it is.

2 Co 7:10, “For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death."

In context, written to CHRISTIANS. Christians repent and are saved--not from Hell (they are Christians), but from the wrath of God, as the context makes very clear.

2 Timothy 2:24-26,”And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.”

I didn't know giving a clear presentation of the Gospel was being quarrelsome. Perhaps Paul was just being quarrelsome when he said every false gospel was anathema?

Anyone--ANYONE--who denies the Gospel of Faith Alone in Christ Alone does not believe, and stands condemned by his own words before Jesus Christ (John 3:18). Works are NOT necessary to be saved, nor to demonstrate salvation, and if one says that they are, then he undermines the very Gospel itself.

So, again, if you have any verses that say that a person who has believed will NECESSARILY do good works, I'd love to see them.

[B. W.]

Jac, you are 'Leading the Witness again!'

You should have posted this on the other thread...

No one said that works save you or keep you saved. I never said, Faith alone cannot not save you. You are leading the Witness Here.

Instead I wrote often -- When you first believed - you are saved.

We were trying to discuss evidences of salvation after one believes. The majority of believers do not fall into the camp of getting saved one day and then dying the next day. That's a matter for the Lord to judge, not us. So please stop using that analogy.

How old are you in the Lord Jac?

28 years for me.

So, again, if you have any verses that say that a person who has believed will NECESSARILY do good works, I'd love to see them.

Ephesians 2:8-10, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Isaiah 46:10, "...declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose..."

Isaiah 55:11, "so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."
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[B. W.]

Bump - re-edited quote above - please note and read again

[Jac3510]

BW, if I'm "leading" anyone, it is only to the logical conclusion of their own positions. Bav, for instance, was willing to admit that the logical conclusion of his position was that one can lose his salvation even in eternity. The bottom line is, again, this:

"The bottom line: any doctrine that denies complete assurance is a false Gospel."

I am perfectly and 100% aware that you don't believe that a person has to do good works to be saved. What you say is, "evidences of salvation after one believes." My position, B.W., is that there there are no such evidences. Further, I argue that to insist that there are such evidences creates a false gospel. Certainly you can't be offended or upset that I have a proposition that I am defending, especially not a proposition that relates to the nature of the Gospel itself.

As far as "how old I am in the Lord", it's 21 years 1 month, although I don't see the time matters. There are people who have been saved for quite some time and have never grown a bit. As for the other verses you suggested:

Ephesians 2:8-10, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Yes, we are saved by GRACE (not BY faith) and THROUGH faith, not through faith and works. Not through a faith THAT works. The purpose of our salvation is that we glorify God by doing good works, that we SHOULD walk in them. This does not say that we WILL walk in them.

Isaiah 46:10, "...declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose..."

The context here is prophecy. What God declares from the beginning will happen, i.e., the resurrection of Jesus. Of course, this doesn't say that saved people will necessarily do good works.

Isaiah 55:11, "so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."

Again, this doesn't say that saved people will necessarily do good works.

The logic you are trying to use could be stated as follows:

1. God always accomplishes His purposes;
2. God's purpose in salvation is for men to do good works;
3. Therefore, saved men will always do good works.

The problem here is that Isaiah doesn't specify HOW that work will be accomplished. But Paul is so kind as to fill us in on the details: "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" (Rom 9:21) God's will is going to be accomplished in our lives regardless of with we go with Him or against Him, for God's plans cannot be thwarted. If we choose to do the good works God prepared, then His plans are accomplished in noble ways; but if we rebel, then His plans are accomplished in, shall we say, less noble ways.

For the record, allow me to demonstrate why should be very careful about stringing proof texts together:

1. All liars go to Hell (Rev 21:8)
2. I am going to heaven (John 3:16)
3. Therefore, I am incapable of lying.

Well, the logic certainly holds! I'm not asking you for a string of proof texts. You find me a passage of Scripture that says explicitly that good works NECESSARILY follow salvation. I agree whole-heartedly that they SHOULD follow. I balk when you say that the WILL follow. In the meantime, I still want you--or anyone--to respond to the basic logic I set out. If good works WILL follow faith, then you don't know that you DO have faith until you actually do those good works. But that denies assurance. But Hebrews says that faith IS assurance. And therefore, faith cannot be unsure, which means knowledge of it cannot be separated from having it, which means that having cannot be tied to future good works. It's irrational.

Further, I appeal not only to the logic of John 3:16, but to Jesus' parable already discussed of the four soils. Only the first was not saved by Jesus' own words. The last three ARE saved, but the first two do not do good works. Further, I appeal to John 12:42 as examples of men who did believe (the Bible says they did) and yet refused to do good works out of fear. Further, I appeal to the story of Lot, a man who did NO good works (beyond keeping a single standard social custom), a man whose life was epitomized by worldly living, and yet whom the Bible calls righteous in Hebrews 11.

Again--what passages of Scripture says that men will NECESSARILY do good works as a result of their salvation? And how do you reconcile that belief with the necessity of absolute assurance as so stated in Hebrews 11:1 and John 3:16; 20:21; etc.?

[B. W.]

The quote below was from a prior discussion on same subject about a year ago on this form and after quote, I'll add to it as it pertains to same discussion:

Note: A word for word English translation from Greek text misses much of the Greek and a person will have too add a few words to uncover the richness of the Greek text into English — This is what I attempted to do as well as line it up with the pattern clearly written later in Paul's letter in this 'personal translation' below of Eph 2:8-10. It is not the best but notice a few things.

Eph 2:8-10, “for (God's) grace brings salvation ' (dia / ho)grace moving through with the intended effect on' faith [trust God alone] this is God's gift, so you will not trust yourself and in your own works: Him!! ---> Will be busy fashioning you into his masterpiece created in Christ Jesus for a vocation of good virtues which God prepared beforehand [predestined] that you will live by these.”

The intended effect of Grace/salvation is to change faith to be in God alone and not in ourselves or in our own works. God is busy fashioning us into His masterpiece created in/by Christ Jesus for a life's vocation of good virtues, transforming us into a good nature, and excellent character, which God prepared beforehand [predestined] that we will live by these. This is God's gift least anyone should boast. Faith in self will be removed and faith in God alone cemented in such manner you cannot lose it. That is his gift of love — to change a person's faith to rest in God — his Grace through faith.

This is backed up in Eph 1:4-6 “…even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved…”

Continuing in Eph 1:11-15: “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. 15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints…”

1 Thessalonians 4:3-7 reads and reveals God's will backing up Ephesians 1:1-15: "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness." (1 Thess 4:3-7)

You see Jac, God predestined those that are to be his to become holy and blameless before him. There is evidence that one is saved. These good works of godly virtues do not keep a person saved but are a sign to a person as well as others that one is a disciple of Christ — his children.

John writes it this way:

1 John 3:2-11, “Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. 4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. [ 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.”

1 John 1:5-10, “This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

1 John 2:1-6, “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. (NOTE: 1 John 4:21 tells us the commandment: 'And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.') 4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.”

John 13:34-35, “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Matthew 28:19, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

In the light of the bible, there will be preordained good works in a person's life. These virtuous works are the works of God's love shining through a true believer. For this love to shine, it will push out sin within a person. Jesus said to make disciples ,not believers, but disciples in all nations. A disciple learns to walk as Jesus walked — reflecting the grace and love of God wherever they have been assigned.

Christians are disciples. They do bumble along just as the original disciples did: arguing amongst each other who is most favor and right, fleeing from Christ when things get hot, denied Jesus three times, gave up and went back fishing after the resurrection. What did Jesus do? Give up on them? The answer is NO. He transformed them and changed them just as Abraham was changed — through increasing faith in God's great grace and callings through the course of their entire life in Christ whence they first believed.

You see Jac, there is evidence of a person being saved and it is called 'Godly love' and not 'works to earn brownie points or stay saved or prove how holier than thou is over another.' Good virtuous works (of love) are an outpouring of God's love through us. These are his works. His grace poured out into our souls. He preordained this to be and happen to everyone who truly first believes. It is the Lord working through us to do his will and his good pleasure. This is God's grace — favor bestowed upon us. It changes a person.

There all kinds of true Christians in all sorts of levels of spiritual maturity. No Christian will be ever perfectly perfect in this life. We all will slip and fall. Even big name ministers stumble and fall. They key is, did we learn and now sin that particular sin no more? Has our character been transformed into the nature of Christ's love or not? Have we learned from our failures and stumbling? Or do we misuse God's grace as an excuse to continue the same old sins?

What you seem to be proclaiming, Jac, is that it is okay to continue to sin and still get in. That God did not and cannot have predestined you and I for doing good virtuous works. That we cannot love one another and that love for God is not important facet of a Christian's life. Jac, I hope I am wrong in this assessment.

In other words you are coming across as proclaiming that one must only have faith in their own faith to be saved. Our Faith is to be in the Grace of God that He will change us day by day, week by week, year by year conforming us into the image of his dear son, Jesus Christ.

Having faith in your own faith to believe can cause a person to justify their own stagnation. There is more than a loss of rewards in heaven for such stagnation because such a person as this will stand one day before the Lord. He will be found to have buried his talent and is cast away from the presence of the Lord forever because he depended upon faith in his own faith and not Faith in God's grace.

Jac you believe in the precepts of predestination?

Roman 8:29 -30, “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

Eph 1:5, “...he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will…”

Eph 1:11-15: “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. 15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints…”

God works all things according to his will having predestine a changed life for those that truly believe. This the bible teaches and that is why I say, based of a person's level of spiritual maturity and growth, there will be evidences that one is truly saved. God works in each persons life in omni-personal way.

Part of the gospel message is freedom form the bondage of sin and death. He whom the son sets free is free indeed. A person's life with show this as it was predestined by God to be. His counsel shall stand and the Lord will accomplish all his purposes(Isaiah 46:10) His word will not return void and it shall accomplish what God purposed and succeed in the thing which He sent it for (Isaiah 55:11).

That is grace! - My faith in his grace and him working in me and changing me everyday preparing me for what actions He needs me to do for today. I stumble and fall learning from each travail that he has and never will let me go. Through each thing, I learn to change, not by my own power but through his working within me. You see, I am a work in progress as are all those whom have truly first believed.

Spiritual maturity is relative to the believer but when God says he preordained us to walk in His good virtuous works we will learn to walk in them.

Jac, you do sound like you teach that faith in one's own faith is what saves. I hope I am wrong on that.

Bible quotes from ESV
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2 Thess 2:13, "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter. 16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word. "

[BavarianWheels]

Jesus said to make disciples ,not believers, but disciples in all nations. A disciple learns to walk as Jesus walked — reflecting the grace and love of God wherever they have been assigned.

Christians are disciples. They do bumble along just as the original disciples did: arguing amongst each other who is most favor and right, fleeing from Christ when things get hot, denied Jesus three times, gave up and went back fishing after the resurrection. What did Jesus do? Give up on them? The answer is NO. He transformed them and changed them just as Abraham was changed — through increasing faith in God's great grace and callings through the course of their entire life in Christ whence they first believed.

You see Jac, there is evidence of a person being saved and it is called 'Godly love' and not 'works to earn brownie points or stay saved or prove how holier than thou is over another.' Good virtuous works (of love) are an outpouring of God's love through us. These are his works. His grace poured out into our souls. He preordained this to be and happen to everyone who truly first believes. It is the Lord working through us to do his will and his good pleasure. This is God's grace — favor bestowed upon us. It changes a person.

There all kinds of true Christians in all sorts of levels of spiritual maturity. No Christian will be ever perfectly perfect in this life. We all will slip and fall. Even big name ministers stumble and fall. They key is, did we learn and now sin that particular sin no more? Has our character been transformed into the nature of Christ's love or not? Have we learned from our failures and stumbling? Or do we misuse God's grace as an excuse to continue the same old sins?

What you seem to be proclaiming, Jac, is that it is okay to continue to sin and still get in. That God did not and cannot have predestined you and I for doing good virtuous works. That we cannot love one another and that love for God is not important facet of a Christian's life. Jac, I hope I am wrong in this assessment.

In other words you are coming across as proclaiming that one must only have faith in their own faith to be saved. Our Faith is to be in the Grace of God that He will change us day by day, week by week, year by year conforming us into the image of his dear son, Jesus Christ.

Having faith in your own faith to believe can cause a person to justify their own stagnation. There is more than a loss of rewards in heaven for such stagnation because such a person as this will stand one day before the Lord. He will be found to have buried his talent and is cast away from the presence of the Lord forever because he depended upon faith in his own faith and not Faith in God's grace.

In agreement.
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[Jac3510]

I forgot about this thread :p

Note: A word for word English translation from Greek text misses much of the Greek and a person will have too add a few words to uncover the richness of the Greek text into English — This is what I attempted to do as well as line it up with the pattern clearly written later in Paul's letter in this 'personal translation' below of Eph 2:8-10. It is not the best but notice a few things.

Eph 2:8-10, “for (God's) grace brings salvation ' (dia / ho)grace moving through with the intended effect on' faith [trust God alone] this is God's gift, so you will not trust yourself and in your own works: Him!! ---> Will be busy fashioning you into his masterpiece created in Christ Jesus for a vocation of good virtues which God prepared beforehand [predestined] that you will live by these.”

The intended effect of Grace/salvation is to change faith to be in God alone and not in ourselves or in our own works. God is busy fashioning us into His masterpiece created in/by Christ Jesus for a life's vocation of good virtues, transforming us into a good nature, and excellent character, which God prepared beforehand [predestined] that we will live by these. This is God's gift least anyone should boast. Faith in self will be removed and faith in God alone cemented in such manner you cannot lose it. That is his gift of love — to change a person's faith to rest in God — his Grace through faith.

I'm not even going to get into this other than to say that I totally disagree with your usage of Greek here. I'm not sure what kind of training you have in the language, but this looks like you got an amplified Bible and a Strong's Concordance--maybe a Robertsons' or Vincent's Word Pictures while you were at it--and just started pulling together ideas. Sorry, I just flat disagree.

On to some of your other verses:

This is backed up in Eph 1:4-6 “…even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved…”

I've discussed my view on election elsewhere on these boards. "in Him" is the key phrase here. It is locative, not instrumental, and thus could be translated, "even as, before the foundation of the world, He chose us who are in Him . . ." Thus, the predestination is only for those who are in Christ, and that predestination is not to salvation, but to adoption (which we have not yet received). Upon our bodily redemption, we will then be adopted, as will everyone who is in Christ.

Continuing in Eph 1:11-15: “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. 15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints…”

See notes above on predestination.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-7 reads and reveals God's will backing up Ephesians 1:1-15: "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness." (1 Thess 4:3-7)

Do you really think any verse in Scripture needs the "backing" of another? Of course not. But, aside from that, the verse itself is fine like it stands. God certainly does desire that we are sanctified. We certainly will be perfectly sanctified at our redemption, but that is yet future. Today, our progressive sanctification, like our positional sanctification, is by faith alone. It is not automatic. When we rest in Christ's promise, He works in us to make us more mature in Him. But when we do not rest in Him, we "walk according to the flesh" (Rom , which leads us to corruption.

You see Jac, God predestined those that are to be his to become holy and blameless before him. There is evidence that one is saved. These good works of godly virtues do not keep a person saved but are a sign to a person as well as others that one is a disciple of Christ — his children.

And we will become holy and blameless, as per the verses, at the redemption of our bodies. That day is not yet. These verses speak nothing of the evidence of salvation. They speak of the reality that we WILL experience if we have believed the Gospel, and in light of that reality, we OUGHT to live in accordance with that in this life. But that is no guarantee that we will do so.

The verses simply do not say that we WILL live according the Spirit in this life. It says that He will perfect us at our Resurrection and that we ought to live righteously in light of that today. But saying that we ought to live righteously is different from saying that we will live righteously.

On to John:

John writes it this way:

1 John 3:2-11, “Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. 4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. [ 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.”

I would disagree with this translation, as to most scholars. 3:6 should be rendered:

"No one who abides in him sins; and no one who sins has either seen Him or knows Him."

3:9 should say:

"No one who is born of God practices sin, for God's seed abides in him. Indeed, he is not capable of sin because he has been born of God."

There's no real debate on this.

Now, we can come back and talk about 3:10, but only after you accept the force of these statements. In your interpretation of 3:10, no one--not even you, B.W.--can claim to be born of God. In fact, you MUST be a child of Satan, because you sin, and the one born of God CANNOT sin. He is not capable of it. The Greek is very clear here, regardless of translator bias. I'll offer a different view of 3:10, but not now. We need to digest how serious a problem you have if you insist it proves who is saved and who is not by their deeds.

1 John 1:5-10, “This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

Notice the key concept here. It isn't salvation. It is "fellowship." To have fellowship is not the same as to be saved, and to be saved is not the same as having fellowship. We can talk more about the "we" group, but I'll leave it as only this: "We" refers to the Apostolic Circle. It's fairly clear that John is dealing with a group of heretics who believed that they were incapable of sin, and these heretics had come from the Jerusalem Church, claiming the authority of the Apostles. John is calling them what they are. They were the ones who said that they had no sin, and therefore, the truth was not in them.

1 John 2:1-6, “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. (NOTE: 1 John 4:21 tells us the commandment: 'And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.') 4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.”

Again, note what the key idea is here: knowing God, which is a relational term, not salvation. If I don't love my brother, I cannot say I know God. But just because I don't know God doesn't mean I'm not saved. I may be a saved person who doesn't know my God. That's just a very standard way the word "to know" is used in Greek. It's used that way in English, for that matter. Remember the song, "If you don't know me by now, you will never, never, never know me . . ."

And let's point out something that backs my point. 1 John 2:2 says that Christ is not only the propitiation for OUR sins--that is, for Christians, and more specifically, for the Apostles who held the true orthodoxy--but He is ALSO the propitiation for the whole "world." In John's theology, the world (gk. kosmos) means "fallen humanity." The Greek is, here, again, striking. I won't go into detail, but here's the bottom line: this does NOT say that Jesus is the POTENTIAL propitiation for the whole world. It says that He IS the propitiation for the whole world. That is, the sins of ALL the world have already been forgiven--not potentially forgiven--because of Christ. Not a single person will go to Hell on account of their sin. That means that we aren't saved by receiving the atonement. Everyone, both believer and unbeliever, has received the full benefits of the atonement. What we have to do now is be restored or regenerated. We have to "pass out of death and into life" (John 5:24). It's not a sin issue. It's a life/death issue.

John 13:34-35, “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Yes, all the world will know that we are Christ's disciples if we love; not all the world will know that we are saved if we love. Take the Bible at its words, B.W. Don't change God's Word.

Matthew 28:19, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Yes, we should teach people to observe all of Christ's commandments. But just because we teach them doesn't mean they will necessarily follow in those teachings. There is nothing in the verse that says that they will.

Moving on:

In the light of the bible, there will be preordained good works in a person's life. These virtuous works are the works of God's love shining through a true believer. For this love to shine, it will push out sin within a person. Jesus said to make disciples ,not believers, but disciples in all nations. A disciple learns to walk as Jesus walked — reflecting the grace and love of God wherever they have been assigned.

Yes, good works are preordained for us to walk in, but no verse says that we will necessarily walk in them. We are promised chastisement if we don't and rewards if we do, but there is no guarantee that we actually will. And yes, we are to make disciples and not merely believers, but that is precisely because believers--genuine believers at that--may be only believers and not disciples.

Christians are disciples. They do bumble along just as the original disciples did: arguing amongst each other who is most favor and right, fleeing from Christ when things get hot, denied Jesus three times, gave up and went back fishing after the resurrection. What did Jesus do? Give up on them? The answer is NO. He transformed them and changed them just as Abraham was changed — through increasing faith in God's great grace and callings through the course of their entire life in Christ whence they first believed.

Was Lot changed? Was Simon Magnus? What about the Pharisees of John 12:42? What about those who believed, according to Jesus' parable of the soils, but later fell away? What about those who "fell asleep" in Corinthians because they lived sinful lives, or what about the man turned over "for the destruction of his flesh?" What about those whom God takes away, those who commit the sin unto death?

Yes, God will discipline those who live in sin. But there is absolutely no guarantee that we will choose to walk in repentance. There is no verse that says we will. Only exhortations that we should.

You see Jac, there is evidence of a person being saved and it is called 'Godly love' and not 'works to earn brownie points or stay saved or prove how holier than thou is over another.' Good virtuous works (of love) are an outpouring of God's love through us. These are his works. His grace poured out into our souls. He preordained this to be and happen to everyone who truly first believes. It is the Lord working through us to do his will and his good pleasure. This is God's grace — favor bestowed upon us. It changes a person.

As noted above, no such evidence exists. There is evidence that a person is a disciple, but there is no such evidence that a person is a believer.

There all kinds of true Christians in all sorts of levels of spiritual maturity. No Christian will be ever perfectly perfect in this life. We all will slip and fall. Even big name ministers stumble and fall. They key is, did we learn and now sin that particular sin no more? Has our character been transformed into the nature of Christ's love or not? Have we learned from our failures and stumbling? Or do we misuse God's grace as an excuse to continue the same old sins?

And Christians who are disciplines and who are growing in the faith will heed the lessons God teaches them when they fall because they are abiding in Christ. But if they do not abide, then they will not grow. There will be no fruit. There will be no evidence. There is NO SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE that a saved person will necessarily do good works. There is only Scripture commanding that a saved person SHOULD do good works.

What you seem to be proclaiming, Jac, is that it is okay to continue to sin and still get in. That God did not and cannot have predestined you and I for doing good virtuous works. That we cannot love one another and that love for God is not important facet of a Christian's life. Jac, I hope I am wrong in this assessment

I never said it was OK. God will judge those who live in sin, but nowhere does that judgment mean we will necessarily turn from it. That judgment may get so harsh it leads to our death. Further, to live in sin is to lose rewards at the Bema Seat of Christ. And there are great rewards, both here and in the hereafter, for living a righteous life. But there is no Scripture anywhere that guarantees that all saved people will do good works. The Bible simply does not say that. It says, as I have been consistently showing, just the opposite.

In other words you are coming across as proclaiming that one must only have faith in their own faith to be saved. Our Faith is to be in the Grace of God that He will change us day by day, week by week, year by year conforming us into the image of his dear son, Jesus Christ.

Faith in faith will not save. Faith in Christ as my salvation will save, and ONLY that will save. But just because I trust Christ for my salvation does not mean that I will necessarily live as He commands me to. There are simply no verses that guarantee that everyone who believes in Christ will be changed by God's grace. Against this, you have the several I've already mentioned that say the opposite.

Having faith in your own faith to believe can cause a person to justify their own stagnation. There is more than a loss of rewards in heaven for such stagnation because such a person as this will stand one day before the Lord. He will be found to have buried his talent and is cast away from the presence of the Lord forever because he depended upon faith in his own faith and not Faith in God's grace

Of course if a person puts faith in their own faith they will not be saved. The object of faith is Christ, not faith itself.

Jac you believe in the precepts of predestination?

Of course. I believe every word of the Bible. I have a problem with people who don't believe John 3:16.

Roman 8:29 -30, “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

When is this conforming to the image of the Son to take place? The Resurrection, not in daily life.

Eph 1:5, “...he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will…”

And that adoption is yet future. We are predestined to receive it. We have not yet.

Eph 1:11-15: “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. 15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints…”

Here we are predestined to an inheritance. Wonderful. No object there. That inheritance will be received in Glory, not here. And, yes, the Ephesian church loved people. That wasn't evidence of their salvation. They were simply praised because they did, in fact, love people. There's nothing in the verse that says explicitly that Paul knew they were really saved because they loved people. Just not there. In fact, he praised them for loving people precisely because it was possible for believers not to love. If it is a foregone conclusion that all believers will love, then why praise them for that? That's like praising a child for getting a year older or an inch taller. It's just absurd to do such a thing. You praise a child when they achieve a goal that they may not have achieved had they not striven for it. So Paul does here.

God works all things according to his will having predestine a changed life for those that truly believe. This the bible teaches and that is why I say, based of a person's level of spiritual maturity and growth, there will be evidences that one is truly saved. God works in each persons life in omni-personal way

Then your entire position is based on a faulty view of predestination. But let's take it to its logical conclusion. For you, we are guaranteed to do good works because we are predestined, if we really are saved, to do them. Of course, there are false brothers who do false works. They look like, for awhile, they are true believers. They may have even deceived themselves into thinking that they are true believers. But they will fall away eventually, because they aren't predestined to continue in that.

Now, you've believed (you think). And you've done good works. Hopefully, those good works come because you were predestined to do them, being one of the Elect, and not because you've deluded yourself into thinking you are really saved. But in reality, you can't know whether or not your works are from God's gracious predestination or from your own deceitful heart. You can't know that until you do or don't walk in them to the end of your life. And that means that, if you are going to be intellectually honest, you can't know that you are saved.

Such is the ramifications of making good works based in a supposed connection to predestination.

Part of the gospel message is freedom form the bondage of sin and death. He whom the son sets free is free indeed. A person's life with show this as it was predestined by God to be. His counsel shall stand and the Lord will accomplish all his purposes(Isaiah 46:10) His word will not return void and it shall accomplish what God purposed and succeed in the thing which He sent it for (Isaiah 55:11).

Again, assertions. I don't agree that predestination means that we will necessarily walk in good works.

That is grace! - My faith in his grace and him working in me and changing me everyday preparing me for what actions He needs me to do for today. I stumble and fall learning from each travail that he has and never will let me go. Through each thing, I learn to change, not by my own power but through his working within me. You see, I am a work in progress as are all those whom have truly first believed.

Every believer is a work in progress, and it is grace that God is changing those WHO ABIDE IN HIM. But He doesn't change those who don't abide (John 15). Just the opposite, He cuts them away.

Spiritual maturity is relative to the believer but when God says he preordained us to walk in His good virtuous works we will learn to walk in them.

And this conclusion has been handled above. Do consider the implications of it, though, as I mentioned before. By your doctrine, no honest person can know whether or not they are saved.

Jac, you do sound like you teach that faith in one's own faith is what saves. I hope I am wrong on that.

No, grace saves. Not faith. I think I've already mentioned that before? Read Eph 2:8-10 again. We are not saved by grace, but by grace through faith.

Of course, we're still waiting on a single passage of Scripture that says, "All believers will necessarily do good works." You won't find one, because it isn't in Scripture. It's nothing more than a well-intended human addition to the Gospel . . .

2 Thess 2:13, "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter. 16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word. "

And notice that they are exhorted to stand firm. If it were true that they must necessarily stand firm by the very fact that God had predestined them to, then there is absolutely no reason for Paul did give this command. That would be like commanding your child to grow older or taller. It would simply be unnecessary, and, dare I say, heretical. For it would assume that a mere human being by his own effort could achieve God's work.

In all this, BW, you've given me absolutely nothing that says that genuine faith will necessarily produce good works. And against this, we have Jesus' parable of the four soils. We have Lot. We have Simon Magnus. We have Peter's denial of Christ. We have the Corinthian carnality. We have the believers who died because of their sin. We have the sin unto death. We have the repeated commands to remain in Christ.

Everywhere, Scripture assumes that a true Christian may be fruitless, and it warns strongly against it. Your theology has two terrible conclusions:

1. It means that the very thing Scripture so strongly warns against--a fruitless life--is, in fact, no worry at all. While Scripture takes great pains to warn us to be vigilant so that we don't fall into apathy's trap, your theology shrugs off such a warning as impossible, for no true believer can fall into that. All will do the good works that God has predestined them to do.

2. It means that no one may know that they are saved, for there is no way to differentiate between the works I do in my flesh and the works I do by God's predestination. For all I may know, I have deceived myself. I have not truly believe. I can only hope I have trusted Christ, but I cannot know until I die and have indeed persevered. Thus, assurance is impossible. Even now, you look back over your life, are you going to sit here and tell me that you have walked in ALL the good works God has ordained for you? ALL of them? You can't, because you know you haven't. Then you must conclude that either you are not guaranteed to walk in the works God prepared, or you must conclude that you did not walk in those good works precisely because God had not prepared them for you, for if He had, then you WOULD have walked in them. But if He did not prepare them for you, then the good works that you did do are actually not good works that God prepared, but only those that you did in your own strength. But if you have done no good work because God prepared them, then you can not say that you are saved. You are a false believer, so says the honest man.

It's a dangerous theology you hold to, my friend, for it teaches us to ignore the warnings in Scripture against apostasy, and it robs us of all assurance.

The good news, B.W., is that there is no such guarantee. You can trust Christ alone to save you, apart from any guarantee of future performance. You can KNOW you are saved, regardless of how you live or don't live. The good news, BW, is that you can be saved--you can KNOW you are saved--because Jesus said in John 3:16, "whoever believes in Him will not perish, but has everlasting life." That's great news, B.W. I invite you to lay down your doubts, and simply trust Jesus. Quit looking to your own works to verify your salvation, and look only to Him. I promise, His works are much more beautiful than yours, for even on your best day, your BEST works are as filthy rags and can offer no comfort to you. Stop looking to yourself, my friend, for you assurance. Look only to Christ, and believe only His words.

"Whoever believes has everlasting life."
Or
"Whoever believes AND does good works because of that believe has everlasting life."

Which statement do you believe? One is the Gospel. The other is a lie.

God bless

[B. W.]

The good news, B.W., is that there is no such guarantee. You can trust Christ alone to save you, apart from any guarantee of future performance. You can KNOW you are saved, regardless of how you live or don't live. The good news, BW, is that you can be saved--you can KNOW you are saved--because Jesus said in John 3:16, "whoever believes in Him will not perish, but has everlasting life." That's great news, B.W. I invite you to lay down your doubts, and simply trust Jesus. Quit looking to your own works to verify your salvation, and look only to Him. I promise, His works are much more beautiful than yours, for even on your best day, your BEST works are as filthy rags and can offer no comfort to you. Stop looking to yourself, my friend, for you assurance. Look only to Christ, and believe only His words.

"Whoever believes has everlasting life."
Or
"Whoever believes AND does good works because of that believe has everlasting life."

Which statement do you believe? One is the Gospel. The other is a lie.

God bless

Good post Jac. However you completely missed the point I was making. You have been a Christian a long time. Have you counseled a rape victim who is Christian? Due to the nature of the offense and intensity of it, they doubted God. Did she lose her salvation - NO. Has God worked in her life turning her back to him - YES. Is there evidence — yes!

People do go through catastrophic times and events that try people's soul. That is what I am referring too. You seem to be saying to me that you do not have any mercy as you would declare they doubted and were never saved because they must never doubt. — Never.

That is a work, is it not? I do not view the world according to your black and white tunnel vision. Christian's do go through fiery trials and catastrophic events that try the soul. What you term as doubt that they go through would negate your kind of faith. That is who I am talking and writing about. Basically we are on the same page and we do preach the same gospel; however, I would never recommend any Christian to be counseled by you.

Of course there will be weak Christians who do not have interest to show that they are believers and yes they will enter heaven. What I am saying is that Christian believers will be changed by the power of the Holy Spirit and this will show in their lives. This is not human works but rather the work of the Lord.

What you teach in essence is this: Sin that Grace abounds!

My bible reads — God forbid in response to this but you, on the other hand, define this as mercy.

Also I wish you were man enough to apologize to me for the innuendo that I am not a Christian and teach a false gospel.

Sir, if I have offend you, I do apologize so please note the difference between us and who's Christianity walks the walk and talks the talk. And, yes, you are forgiven for your rude remarks and innuendo's towards me.

God bless you and your family and have a great day!

Bryan W. Melvin
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[Jac3510]

You don't have to apologize to me for anything, B.W. You've said nothing to offend. You could flat out call me a heretic and tell me I was hell-bound, and I would not be offended, simply because I know you well enough to know that you would be basing any such position on Scriptures. Why would I hold your interpretation against you? And if your interpretation is correct, I am condemned by Scripture, not you. So, no, you've not offended me.

If you aren't able to extend the same grace in understanding that we are talking not of personal matters but of objective interpretation of Scripture and applying those criteria impersonally, and if such application has offended you, though I confess that I can't understand or relate to your offense, I offer my apologies nonetheless.

With that said, you have misunderstood my position.

In the case of someone who once believed the Gospel and now doubts, I would say that that do not at the present believe the Gospel. However, because I believe in Eternal Security, I would have absolutely no qualms in assuring them of their salvation. If someone tells me that they do, or ever did, believe the Gospel, then I will insist upon their salvation, regardless of behavior.

As far as saying a person can continue in sin, I vehemently disagree. While sin does not send a person to Hell, that does not mean it does not have eternal consequences, for the loss of rewards that a person suffers for choosing to live in sin in this life is severe indeed. And that in addition to the temporal chastisement that sinning Christian will suffer.

My basic premise, BW, is only this: there is NO GUARANTEE IN SCRIPTURE THAT A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER WILL DO GOOD WORKS. There is not even a guarantee that born again believer will continue in the faith! It is for this reason we are repeatedly told to stand firm.

Now, if you reject that, that is, if you believe that ALL believers WILL NECESSARILY do good works--not in order to be saved, but as a necessary result of salvation--I say that you are undermining the Gospel. For if that is true, then you cannot know you are saved, for you cannot know that you will do good works throughout your life to confirm your belief. It may be, after all, possible that you are a false believer and someday you will manifest that by falling away as many others have. But in this case, you cannot know you are saved. And if you do not know you are saved, then you cannot claim to believe the Gospel--at least, you can't claim to believe it and be consistent--for to say that you do not know that you have everlasting life is to doubt Jesus' statement that whoever believes has everlasting life.

At absolute best, then, the position that you have been defending undermines the doctrine of assurance. At worst, it undermines the Gospel itself. In any case, the Gospel I present to you is the purest of good news, that EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES absolutely has everlasting life right this very second.

Again, forgive any offenses, and God bless.

[B. W.]

Jac and you misunderstood me too — It is the Lord that works in Christains to do his will and good pleasure as it is written…

Philippians 2:12-13, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out (exercise) your own salvation with fear and trembling ( Thayer defines:…trembling, (as) used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements…this lines up with the next verse), 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

Christians will have this proof as it is God working through them in various ways and manners to work in them as he so wills through the power of the holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with human works but everything to do with God's Grace.

Is it any wonder that many individuals that make up the Church Universal are so weak and so like the world? With a doctrine that denies any responsibility for being a Christian as even being needed, as you pointed out so clearly, has contributed much to the failure of many Christians to actually 'really' be Christ Body on earth as His empowered representative.

Instead we have it as it is now: No change — no gain. Charlatans and false brethren abound and Christians living only for themselves and seeking things rather than Christ and walking as he walked.

I guess that is okay, they're in and will arrive in heaven. With such doctrine as this, is it any wonder so much of the Church Universal cannot show forth the praises of him who called us out of such darkness?

1 Peter 2:9-11, “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. 11 Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul…” ESV

Well, at least we both (Jac) have the courage to shout along with Paul:

Ephesians 5:1-14, "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. 3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not become partners with them; 8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10 and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, 14 for anything that becomes visible is light." ESV

God Bless my dear brother in Christ
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[rodyshusband]

I am hesitant to post a comment here; both of you seem to be engaged in a rather compelling dialogue.
I have considered the following:
Salvation is given to us freely, if we accept it. There is nothing more one has to "do".
Once we accept this (grace), Christ lives within us and we develop a desire to learn more.
I consider how we react to that desire, our "works".
"Good works", as they are commonly known, can be done by anyone and are useless without salvation.
I hope this doesn't start any controversy; just sharing a thought.
Thanks.

[Byblos]

I am hesitant to post a comment here; both of you seem to be engaged in a rather compelling dialogue.
I have considered the following:
Salvation is given to us freely, if we accept it. There is nothing more one has to "do".
Once we accept this (grace), Christ lives within us and we develop a desire to learn more.
I consider how we react to that desire, our "works".
"Good works", as they are commonly known, can be done by anyone and are useless without salvation.
I hope this doesn't start any controversy; just sharing a thought.
Thanks.

On the contrary, I think it sums it rather nicely.

[B. W.]

I am hesitant to post a comment here; both of you seem to be engaged in a rather compelling dialogue.
I have considered the following:
Salvation is given to us freely, if we accept it. There is nothing more one has to "do".
Once we accept this (grace), Christ lives within us and we develop a desire to learn more.
I consider how we react to that desire, our "works".
"Good works", as they are commonly known, can be done by anyone and are useless without salvation.
I hope this doesn't start any controversy; just sharing a thought.
Thanks.

Feel free to jump right in! Look like you have it down pretty good

As for Jac and myself: We have simply missunderstood each other's points of view. We actually get along just fine. Someday if I ever get back to GA - I would like to met Jac and have a 'Root Beer' with him or a cup of coffee! My treat!
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[Jac3510]

RH - by all means, feel free to jump in. I thoroughly agree that any post-salvation good works we do 1) are the work of Christ through us and d2) do nothing to save us. Salvation, of course, is complete at the moment of faith. My objection to BW, misunderstandings notwithstanding, are that I do NOT believe that a saved person will necessarily do good works. I believe it is possible for a saved person to live a life that bears absolutely NO fruit and still go to heaven, albeit such a life will result in sever judgment in this life and loss of rewards in the next. That is, a Christian who lives a fruitless, sinful life will not get off scottfree!

BW, to your specific statements:

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out (exercise) your own salvation with fear and trembling ( Thayer defines:…trembling, (as) used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements…this lines up with the next verse), 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

Christians will have this proof as it is God working through them in various ways and manners to work in them as he so wills through the power of the holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with human works but everything to do with God's Grace.

Unfortunately, the verse you've cited is notioriously difficult to translate. First off, the word "his" in "his good pleasure" is NOT in the Greek. Any interlinear will show that just fine. Let me offer a word-for-word translation:

• Therefore, my brothers, even as you* have always obeyed, not in my presence only but now much more greatly in my absence, with fear and trembling work out for yourselves your deliverance. For God is the one working among you*, even to will and to work concerning goodness.

A few notes of interest. First, the "you" in these passages in plural, so whatever it means, it cannot be referring to INDIVIDUAL salvation. God is not saying to you, BW, and to me, as individuals, to work out or individual salvations. Secondly, the word "salvation" is not likely referring to a person's salvatio from hell. The word soteria, commonly rendered "salvation", can also refer to "wellness" or "wholeness." In the immediate context, Paul is talking about serving one another and considering each other more important, having a like mind, and not fighting. It seems more likely, then, that Paul is using the term to refer to the unity/wellness of the church as a whole, not to indivuals and their relationship with God. Thirdly, as noted, the word "his" is not in the "his good pleasure" portion. It is not for God's pleasure that goodess is being worked, but for the church's. Therefore, God is wanting the church to unifty around goodness (remember 2:1-4!)

Unfortunately, then, this verse does not say that God works in all Christians to make them act right, or bear fruit, or whatever you may have. just the opposite, it is because God wills it but that we may disobey that we are to be afraid, for it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Is it any wonder that many individuals that make up the Church Universal are so weak and so like the world? With a doctrine that denies any responsibility for being a Christian as even being needed, as you pointed out so clearly, has contributed much to the failure of many Christians to actually 'really' be Christ Body on earth as His empowered representative.

Instead we have it as it is now: No change — no gain. Charlatans and false brethren abound and Christians living only for themselves and seeking things rather than Christ and walking as he walked.

I guess that is okay, they're in and will arrive in heaven. With such doctrine as this, is it any wonder so much of the Church Universal cannot show forth the praises of him who called us out of such darkness?

Note again what I said above. If a Christian sins, they will be judged. They will be disciplined. It is a misunderstanding and straw man of the hightest level to insist that I believe that Christians can live a life of sin without consequence. But just becuase there are consequences for sin is no ground for saying then that all Christians will grow in grace and knowledge.

On the contrary, I would argue that it is the doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints that has caused such laxity in the church. For if we are guaranteed to do good works, then there is nothing to fear. All the pastor has to do is make sure that we are saved, then God will necessarily bring them into a place of good works. And if there are no good works, then we msut simply preach repentance all the more.

The result is that people repent and repent and repent . . . they dedicate their lives to Jesus over and over again thinking that maybe this time it is for real. But they fail, as expected, because they've not simply believed the Gospel. They've believed that salvation is by repentance, by turning from sin, by dedicating their life, and by making Jesus Lord. In doing so, they deny the Gospel. Is it any surprise, then, that they fail? No, because they are living the Christian life by their own power, and such will never do. They may live well for a season, but they will fall into one sin or another--open sin on one side or pride and legalism on the other. They will either become like the tax collectors of old who were convinced they weren't good enough for heaven, or they will become like the Pharisees who crucified Jesus, thinking that they were ACTUALL GOOD ENOUGH to be saved. Either way, it's a shame.

The antidote is simple: the pure Gospel, that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS IS SAVED, and that REGARDLESS of future behavior. Until the Church teaches that, people will always fall into sin and live a life of moral laxity.

1 Peter 2:9-11, “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. 11 Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul…” ESV

Notice that Peter URGES these priests of God to abstain from sin. It is not guaranteed, BW. Far from it.

Ephesians 5:1-14, "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. 3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not become partners with them; 8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10 and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, 14 for anything that becomes visible is light." ESV

Notice the command, BW -- we are commanded TO BE IMITATORS of Christ. Paul does not say that because we are saved that we should rejoice because we now will be like Christ. No, on the contrary, he commands us to be imitators, and he forbids us to take part in sinful lifestyles.

Assurance of salvation is at stake here, my friend. If a believer is guaranteed to do good works, then none of us know that we are saved, because there is no way to distinguish my good works from the atheist's, nor is there any way to know that I will do good works until the day I die. I cannot predict the future, and therefore, I can't know that I will remain faithful.

But against that false view invented by legalists, the Bible says that every single person who believes--and only believes--in Jesus is saved for eternity. To deny that is to deny the Gospel.

Let me know if you ever visit GA. I'll take you up on the root beer.

God bless

[B. W.]

...Notice the command, BW -- we are commanded TO BE IMITATORS of Christ. Paul does not say that because we are saved that we should rejoice because we now will be like Christ. No, on the contrary, he commands us to be imitators, and he forbids us to take part in sinful lifestyles.

Assurance of salvation is at stake here, my friend. If a believer is guaranteed to do good works, then none of us know that we are saved, because there is no way to distinguish my good works from the atheist's, nor is there any way to know that I will do good works until the day I die. I cannot predict the future, and therefore, I can't know that I will remain faithful.

But against that false view invented by legalists, the Bible says that every single person who believes--and only believes--in Jesus is saved for eternity. To deny that is to deny the Gospel.

Let me know if you ever visit GA. I'll take you up on the root beer.

God bless

Will do Jac! What is the best brand in GA?

You stated this:

...we are commanded TO BE IMITATORS of Christ. Paul does not say that because we are saved that we should rejoice because we now will be like Christ. No, on the contrary, he commands us to be imitators, and he forbids us to take part in sinful lifestyles.

Agreed! Jesus went about doing God's will. Should we believers in Christ be doing the same to the degree we are able? We may all not be able to heal the blind and sick as Jesus did but we can be a reflection of God's love on this earth. That is my whole point — a truly saved person will be transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit at work in his/her life and they'll demonstrate more godly behavior than non-godly all in due process of time.

I think one of the main problems that face the modern Church Universal is lack of taking responsibility for being a believer and how so many simply neglect to guide new coverts in what is expected of them. Most of the time, new believers are told, come to Christ and believe as that is all you need and that is it. They are told any kind of works are evil and bad. A justifiable apathy now sets in. Stagnation results and we have more Laodiceans in the body of Christ than any other type (for the reader see Revelations 3:14-17 to see what I mean).

While the tenat of what you are saying is correct, I hope you see that it can cause great apathy in the body of Christ. As you stated — “...he (Paul) commands us to be imitators, and he forbids us to take part in sinful lifestyles.”

Assurance of salvation is at stake here, my friend. If a believer is guaranteed to do good works, then none of us know that we are saved, because there is no way to distinguish my good works from the atheist's, nor is there any way to know that I will do good works until the day I die. I cannot predict the future, and therefore, I can't know that I will remain faithful.

The problem, is not good works (as you seem to think I am implying) but rather of transformation. If He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world — then there will be a change of character and lifestyle that is noticeable. Anyone can do good deeds but to be transformed by the power of God that is something that cannot be faked.

Ephesians 2:10 states that God did indeed preordain us to be his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good (virtuous) works (employments /deeds) that God prepared beforehand that we walk accordingly.

Jamieson Fausett Brown Commentary on Eph 2:10 puts it this way-

…workmanship — literally, “a thing of His making”; “handiwork.” Here the spiritual creation, not the physical, is referred to (Eph_2:8, Eph_2:9).

…created — having been created (Eph_4:24; Psa_102:18; Isa_43:21; 2Co_5:5, 2Co_5:17).

…unto good works — “for good works.” “Good works” cannot be performed until we are new “created unto” them. Paul never calls the works of the law “good works.” We are not saved by, but created unto, good works.

…before ordained — Greek, “before made ready” (compare John 5:36). God marks out for each in His purposes beforehand, the particular good works, and the time and way which tie sees best. God both makes ready by His providence the opportunities for the works, and makes us ready for their performance (John 15:16; 2Titus 2:21).

…that we should walk in them — not “be saved” by them. Works do not justify, but the justified man works (Gal_5:22-25).

Again you did state this:

“…we are commanded TO BE IMITATORS of Christ. Paul does not say that because we are saved that we should rejoice because we now will be like Christ. No, on the contrary, he commands us to be imitators, and he forbids us to take part in sinful lifestyles

Therefore there is indeed a sign, a mark, which distinguishes true believers from non-believers. Glad to see you are getting it

May the rest of the body of Christ get this too!
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