Advice/comments welcomed

[rodyshusband]

I would like to share something with you and ask for your comments.
Recently, I was sharing the faith with a man who raised the objection to Christianity, "I hate Christianity because you people are always telling us we are going to hell. I don't think you should judge others..."
I told him he is correct, that we as Christians are not to judge others but asked him if anyone specifically told him that he is going to hell. He said yes, several years back and he still felt resentment. I apologized for the experience and asked him to consider what Christianity has to offer.
I explained that I, as a Christian, cannot know who is or who is not going to hell...or heaven. I gave two examples:
Adolph Hitler and Billy Graham.
Since I did not know Mr. Hitler personally and was not with him at the time of his death, I cannot say that I KNOW for sure that he is in hell. I can say for sure that, based on what I know to be true in the scriptures and based on what I know to be true about Hitler, he is probably in hell.
The same holds true for Billy Graham. Based on what I know to be true in the scripture and based on what I know to be true about Dr. Graham, he will probably spend eternity in heaven.
My point was, we cannot know what is in any mans' heart.
He confirmed he understood and we briefly discussed Oskar Schindler.
This led to discussing "good works" as a way of salvation and the rest was easy to explain...

I believe that we cannot determine if and when any individual will come to salvation.
I believe we are to always be prepared to answer questions and defend our faith, using the word of God and our knowledge of history, science and individual experiences.
The way I understand it, we are "teachers" or, dare I say it, "lawyers"...only God, through Jesus Christ, sits on the bench and pronounces judgment.
A few Christian friends, as well as my wife, feels I was too philosophical in the above situation.

Please feel free to comment, ask questions or critique this approach. Thanks.

[tabitha]

I believe you gave him a very thoughtful answer. I remember the example given to me was always Jesus on the cross declaring that the thief who professed to believe in Him would be with him in paradise, remember? Hence the origination of the deathbed conversion. Jesus valued belief and faith above all else, regardless of one's past sins. How truly terrible those sins were might not have any revelence to salvation. God's forgiveness is provided by the blood of his Son, right? It appeas that to God the only unforgivable sin is unbelief. That is something to puzzle about. I wonder why God values faith above all else, faith/belief is the equation that equals God. It is something to think about.

[zoegirl]

Seems fine to me....good way to start the discussion and no, we will never be able to examine their hearts, but we can judge their actions.

[Cross.eyed]

I believe that we cannot determine if and when any individual will come to salvation.

I'm with you on this. We can't possibly know how anyone views their own salvation, there are just too many ramifications.

Years ago, I gave alot of thought to this subject and I came to the conclusion that I absolutly didn't have the capacity to judge another person. I honestly don't understand how anyone else could either.

When I took a long hard look at my own situation, it became clear to me that there are many reasons why people are the way they are. It took much self-examination to come to that realization and I was not easy on myself.

I really believe some may think they are doing what is right in God's eyes by warning people of impending doom, but I'm sure no-one can judge but God Himself.

[rodyshusband]

I believe most people look at Christians as a caricature: Bible thumping, "fire and brimstone" spouting, self absorbed, judging narcissists. It is true that some have, and still do, resort to an aggressive approach to evangelism.
In the book "When Bad Christians Happen to Good People", author Dave Burkett points out that when we hear criticisms about Christianity, we should listen carefully and take note: there may be some truth or reason behind it.
I like what Ravi Zacharias said once, in response to the aberrant behavior of Christians:
he quoted Augustine: "Never judge a philosophy based on its abuse" and he added, "Base the philosophy on the founder of the philosophy...this case, Jesus Christ". We need to get past the caricatures and right to the heart of the matter.

[Cross.eyed]

Seems fine to me....good way to start the discussion and no, we will never be able to examine their hearts, but we can judge their actions.

I agree with the judgment of actions, but at what point do we fall into the trap of judging the person(s) based on those actions whether the deeds, words, etc. are good or bad?

What I am getting at is the inherency of mankind. It's like the old man said; "I have fished all my life and nobody has ever called me a fisherman."
"Only one time in my life did I ever steal anything and that was a one cent bubble gum. Do you know, after that, everyone called me a thief!"

[zoegirl]

Well, I don't think it's necessarily wrong for us to judge. After all, we judge whether it's wise to be in a relationship with a person because of their actions or deeds.

I think it's wrong to judge someone and use that judgement as some indicationthat they are worse than you or that you are somehow better. "Chief of all sinners" Paul has said, and we all need Christ, but there is nothing wrong with discernment. Hitler did some evil, heinous things in his life. A rapist, even if he believes in proson, still needs to serve that psentence through.

[Cross.eyed]

Thanks for clarifying zoegirl.
We were discussing something similar in another thread a while back and I was sure you would be reasonable with the usage.
I just had to ask.

[zoegirl]

Of course, tricky topic!

[rodyshusband]

When I hear the word "judge", I think of someone who has the authority to prescribe punishment.
I do not have the authority to condemn someone to hell or advance someone to heaven.
I do have the right to determine the difference between right and wrong in my life and the lives of others.
Discernment is another area we can discuss.

[tabitha]

"I do have the right to determine the difference between right and wrong in my life and the lives of others."

That is interesting But when you do determine what is wrong in in the lives of other's, what do you do with that information? To tell someone they are going to hell is perfectly reasonable thing to do for some Christians. They feel it is actually a loving thing to do. Obviously it can also be highly offensive to some people. The church I once belonged to made a point of saying this in order to save people. Are these people misguided? Some people would construe this kind of evangelism as just scare tactics.

[rodyshusband]

"I do have the right to determine the difference between right and wrong in my life and the lives of others."

That is interesting But when you do determine what is wrong in in the lives of other's, what do you do with that information? To tell someone they are going to hell is perfectly reasonable thing to do for some Christians. They feel it is actually a loving thing to do. Obviously it can also be highly offensive to some people. The church I once belonged to made a point of saying this in order to save people. Are these people misguided? Some people would construe this kind of evangelism as just scare tactics.

Good points, tabitha.
We can approach people in one of two ways: direct and subtle. Let's use this example: you are walking down a street and see a house on fire. Smoke and flames are billowing out the windows. You race inside the house to find a man sitting contently in a chair, reading a newspaper. You yell, "The house is on fire! Get out now!" If the man is wise, he will drop his paper and follow you out the door.
The problem is the way contemporary culture views such actions. Using the same scenario, the man could respond with, "How do YOU know the house is on fire?", " It may be true for you but it's not true for me...", "MY house is not on fire", "You are over-reacting. You must be some kind of nut...", "I need a second opinion (I don't trust you)" or "I am the master of my own destiny. You and nobody else can tell me what to do". For as silly as it sounds our culture has given up the very definition of what is true.
I think of Paul, in the book of Acts. He could have gone to the philosophers in Athens and told them their "house is on fire" or he could have gone to them, met them on their own terms and explained in ways they could understand, God's gift of grace through Christ.
We have become so educated that we can't see reality or see it and question it. This is a secular culture: religious worldviews are insignificant. This presents a challenge to us.
I attend a baptist church and the pastor of my church shares the word of God in a local park each week. He does so in kindness and love and is building respect in the community. Some listen, others chalk him up to using "scare tactics", as you mentioned.
IN MY OPINION...I see us living in a world where we should be prepared to meet the challenges given to us on their terms. There is no "right" or "wrong" way, as long as the truth is not corrupted. Clearly, the person I was talking to felt he was "beaten up" by the direct approach and needed to hear the gospel in a different way.

[tabitha]

I personally was told I was going to hell by one of the deacons of my church. I was quite offended. I told him I didn't feel I was going to hell, and he was making a judgement that was beyond his jurisdiction. He told me I was wrong, and he had the right to say this to me. So there it goes. I do not believe he was basing his judgement on my faith but on my lifestyle. I was put off and obviously if the desired effect was to save me, it didn't work. I don't know too many who responded in a positive way to the message. My old church tended to police the members, and it got too much for me.

It's so easy to call a Christian hypocrital, and we have Jesus to thank for that. With a few sayings he managed to set extremely high standards for us mere mortals. There also is the insecurity with some Christians of not knowing if they are "really" saved, because of this thing called backsliding. Have you guys ever heard of this?

[zoegirl]

WE can't really judge another person's heart, but we can cerainly judge actions. What he said to you is certainly awful and hurtful as well as not very gentle.

[FFC]

We are to speak the truth in love. This means getting our facts as well as our hearts in order before opening our mouths.