The Authencity of the Bible.

[FFC]

Shulgin, the Bible does not say the world is 6,000 years old. This very website is founded on that principal. If this was one of your stumbling blocks to seeing the truth it's just been removed. Like FFC suggested, why don't you look at the evidence presented by the very people who made it their mission to prove that Jesus isn't who he claims to be. Do that and then come back here and attempt to refute it.

An atheist is a man who has no means of support- John (Byblos).

When you feel like you are at the end of your rope...get a longer rope. -FFC

You inspire me, my Holy Roller friend.

[Byblos]

Shulgin, the Bible does not say the world is 6,000 years old. This very website is founded on that principal. If this was one of your stumbling blocks to seeing the truth it's just been removed. Like FFC suggested, why don't you look at the evidence presented by the very people who made it their mission to prove that Jesus isn't who he claims to be. Do that and then come back here and attempt to refute it.

An atheist is a man who has no means of support- John (Byblos).

When you feel like you are at the end of your rope...get a longer rope. -FFC

You inspire me, my Holy Roller friend.

LOL! It's mutual (I learned from the best).

[Shulgin]

OK, lets try a different tact. Do you believe that the bible is all true? If so, there's much to answer for in the OT (murder, slaves, incest, yadda yadda). If not, then doesn't that cast a huge shadow of doubt on the authenticity of Jesus/god? BTW I've read Strobel and the crew. They offer no credible evidence for anything. Much of it is supposition of others, interviews, etc. I still maintain the above question about the bible, if you believe it, how do you account for the god of the OT and Jesus in the new? If you don't believe it, how do you choose what to believe and what to selectively not believe?

Shulgin
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I wonder who got the s*%t job of scouring the planet for the 15000 species of butterfly or the 8800 species of ant they eventually took on board Noah's Ark. But at least we got that magical rainbow for all their trouble- Azura Skye

[BavarianWheels]

OK, lets try a different tact. Do you believe that the bible is all true? If so, there's much to answer for in the OT (murder, slaves, incest, yadda yadda). If not, then doesn't that cast a huge shadow of doubt on the authenticity of Jesus/god? BTW I've read Strobel and the crew. They offer no credible evidence for anything. Much of it is supposition of others, interviews, etc. I still maintain the above question about the bible, if you believe it, how do you account for the god of the OT and Jesus in the new? If you don't believe it, how do you choose what to believe and what to selectively not believe?

The Bible is collection of stories (true and some parables) that show us (apart from other lessons) that inspite of us being sinners and prone to EVERY sin available to Man...God still loves us and from the beginning had a plan set forth for our rescue. That He is there even when we think He's not...that whether we die or live...He is there.
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[cslewislover]

OK, lets try a different tact. Do you believe that the bible is all true? If so, there's much to answer for in the OT (murder, slaves, incest, yadda yadda). If not, then doesn't that cast a huge shadow of doubt on the authenticity of Jesus/god? BTW I've read Strobel and the crew. They offer no credible evidence for anything. Much of it is supposition of others, interviews, etc. I still maintain the above question about the bible, if you believe it, how do you account for the god of the OT and Jesus in the new? If you don't believe it, how do you choose what to believe and what to selectively not believe?

Shulgin

There's a good article on this, called "Why Does God Seem So Angry in the Old Testament & Loving in the New?," in Hard Sayings of the Bible (Kaiser, Davids, Bruce, Brauch; InterVarsity Press). I don't think I want to retype the whole thing here, but there must be other articles like this out there (I'll do a search too). I wanted to mention this book because it's really great and addresses much that you ask. I suggest checking it out.

[Byblos]

OK, lets try a different tact. Do you believe that the bible is all true? If so, there's much to answer for in the OT (murder, slaves, incest, yadda yadda). If not, then doesn't that cast a huge shadow of doubt on the authenticity of Jesus/god?

Yes and no (respectively).

BTW I've read Strobel and the crew. They offer no credible evidence for anything. Much of it is supposition of others, interviews, etc.

I'll take your word for it (that you read them at all).

I still maintain the above question about the bible, if you believe it, how do you account for the god of the OT and Jesus in the new? If you don't believe it, how do you choose what to believe and what to selectively not believe?

We see no contradiction whatsoever between the two. Let me ask you this, do you have any children or know of someone who is raising a child? When they first learn how to walk what is a parent to do? Leave the child entirely on their own? Tie them to a harness and never let them fall? No. A good parent knows that a child needs assistance but most importantly a child needs to learn on their own. A child needs help to get up after they fall and hurt themselves but they also need to try again, on their own. Eventually they will learn to walk but they will also learn they have a loving parent who let them be independent while protecting them from harm when necessary, until they become independent. That's one way God reveals himself to us. A tough but loving parent who has our best interests at heart. He will not force us to choose him as this will violate our free will. What would be the point of choice if He revealed himself unequivocally?

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Shulgin, have you considered the possibility of a local flood? There's so much you are missing.- Byblos

[cslewislover]

OK, lets try a different tact. Do you believe that the bible is all true? If so, there's much to answer for in the OT (murder, slaves, incest, yadda yadda). If not, then doesn't that cast a huge shadow of doubt on the authenticity of Jesus/god? BTW I've read Strobel and the crew. They offer no credible evidence for anything. Much of it is supposition of others, interviews, etc.

This is an odd way to dismiss Strobel. He's presenting evidence that others have, like in a documentary. There's nothing wrong with that. The evidence in, say, A Case for Christ, is very good. If you want to bring in legitimate criticisms of that evidence, you should do so.

I still maintain the above question about the bible, if you believe it, how do you account for the god of the OT and Jesus in the new? If you don't believe it, how do you choose what to believe and what to selectively not believe?

Shulgin

Here's a little article that addresses your earlier concerns somewhat. Not whether the bible is true, but about the differences in the OT and NT. (This article is from here: http://www.rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx ... &Topic=788 That site has a ton of resources if you're interested in looking it up.)

How can the "jealous God" of the Old Testament be the same as the loving heavenly Father of the New Testament?
It is true that the Old Testament sometimes refers to God as jealous. For example:

I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me (Exodus 20:5).1

Biblical descriptions of God's jealousy should always be read in view of the Bible's affirmation of God's holiness, justice, and love ( Deuteronomy 32:4 ; Psalm 36:7; 89:14; 145:17 ; Luke 13:34 ; John 3:16 ; 1 John 4:16 ; Revelation 15:3; 19:11 ). God is the source of all goodness and justice. When properly understood, His jealousy isn't inconsistent with His love and holiness; it's required by it. When we react against the Bible's description of God as a jealous God, we forget that there are times when jealousy is right and appropriate.

In one sense God's jealousy refers to the natural consequences of living in a way that goes against the grain of reality. Anyone who lives as though he isn't responsible for the effects of his actions, as though he is the center of the universe, will always encounter this kind of jealousy. The universe is stacked against idolatry and rebellion.

But the Bible's reference to God's jealousy also makes clear that God's response to our idolatry isn't merely natural, it is personal and supernatural. As hard as it is for us to comprehend, the Creator of the universe is consciously aware of our every foolish act and arrogant thought. When we reject Him, He consciously suffers intense grief, something that in human terms can only be compared with the suffering of a husband with a cheating wife, or a father with wicked, ungrateful sons.

But unlike us, God is perfectly loving. His jealousy is untainted with the malice or envy present in even the most justified human jealousy. He is a heavenly Father ( Matthew 6:32 ; Luke 11:13 ), a gentle Shepherd who protects and nourishes His wayward sheep ( Psalm 23:1-4 ; Isaiah 55:7 ). Because He is true to His nature, this jealous, loving God made provision for our redemption, providing an avenue of reconciliation with Him even after we have spurned His love:

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6).

At just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:6-8).

Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit (1 Peter 3:18).

For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16).

1. Exodus 20:5 declares that God punishes those who hate Him, even to the third and fourth generation. This doesn't mean that God arbitrarily punishes us for sins committed by others. Ezekiel 18 explicitly states that God never punishes a son for the sin of a father or a father for the sin of a son. Punishment can be in the form of the natural consequences of godlessness. Children in a God-hating environment tend to become God-haters too. They become enslaved to evil and suffer the consequences of a life out of sync with natural law. But since God is a personal being, He is behind these so-called natural phenomena in all the awesomeness of His personhood. He may even intervene in the natural course of events in an obviously supernatural way, as He did when He brought drought upon Israel during the time of Elijah as punishment for her idolatry ( 1 Kings 17—19 ). Notice how quickly rain was restored after the Israelites rejected the Baals and declared their restored loyalty to Him ( 19:43-45 ).

[Shulgin]

OK, lets try a different tact. Do you believe that the bible is all true? If so, there's much to answer for in the OT (murder, slaves, incest, yadda yadda). If not, then doesn't that cast a huge shadow of doubt on the authenticity of Jesus/god?

Yes and no (respectively).

So yes you think every word in the bible is true. Why would anyone want to follow a god like that portrayed in the OT? There are ghastly stories of your god doing horrible things. It sounds to me more like the people of that day, superstitious, oppressive to women, condoning slavery, etc. created a god that was just like them. Why for instance would a god so powerful that he could create the whole of the universe, all the way down to nuclear physics, give a rat's patooty about a burnt offering being given to him by a sinner on this infintesmal speck of cosmic dust? I believe that its because the people who made up god thought the earth was the center of the universe and there was nothing more out there. No evidence to support this from me here, just makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than what I just mentioned above. I just can't fathom that the creator of this grand and complex universe would bother to leave us the bible. For someone like him it is a piece of trash in my opinion. Why wouldn't a rational being like god at least leave us with a document that was consistent and clear knowing full well that it would be in use for at least this long? Take for instance condoning slavery. I understand that for the people of that day it was a very relevant question, but why is it in there. Surely god knew it was an offensive practice and that by putting it in writing for all to follow it was in practice way longer than it should have been. He must have known his work would be used to justify slavery and that real human beings would suffer as a result of his teaching. I can't reconcile why a being like god would do something that stupid. All he had to do was zap one of the loyal followers to write 'thou shalt not enslave your fellow man" or something similar. There, done, enough said, slavery gone, thousands relieved of suffering they didn't deserve. I'm not suggesting that he needed to spell everything out, but I think my 13 YO daughter could write a better book of instruction that was clear and concise and humane. Seems to me to be no biggie for a being like god.

Shulgin
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion- Steven Weinberg

[Shulgin]

OK, lets try a different tact. Do you believe that the bible is all true? If so, there's much to answer for in the OT (murder, slaves, incest, yadda yadda). If not, then doesn't that cast a huge shadow of doubt on the authenticity of Jesus/god? BTW I've read Strobel and the crew. They offer no credible evidence for anything. Much of it is supposition of others, interviews, etc.

This is an odd way to dismiss Strobel. He's presenting evidence that others have, like in a documentary. There's nothing wrong with that. The evidence in, say, A Case for Christ, is very good. If you want to bring in legitimate criticisms of that evidence, you should do so.

I'm not going to go into all the evidence against Strobel, its been expounded upon by others. I would like to point out that I think you are using the word evidence a bit strongly. There is no real, hard evidence presented at all. The only 'evidence' ever presented amounts to mostly a handful of expert's interpretations of scripture. I don't consider this evidence at all.

I still maintain the above question about the bible, if you believe it, how do you account for the god of the OT and Jesus in the new? If you don't believe it, how do you choose what to believe and what to selectively not believe?

Shulgin

Here's a little article that addresses your earlier concerns somewhat. Not whether the bible is true, but about the differences in the OT and NT. (This article is from here: http://www.rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx ... &Topic=788 That site has a ton of resources if you're interested in looking it up.)

How can the "jealous God" of the Old Testament be the same as the loving heavenly Father of the New Testament?
It is true that the Old Testament sometimes refers to God as jealous. For example:

I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me (Exodus 20:5).1

Biblical descriptions of God's jealousy should always be read in view of the Bible's affirmation of God's holiness, justice, and love ( Deuteronomy 32:4 ; Psalm 36:7; 89:14; 145:17 ; Luke 13:34 ; John 3:16 ; 1 John 4:16 ; Revelation 15:3; 19:11 ). God is the source of all goodness and justice. When properly understood, His jealousy isn't inconsistent with His love and holiness; it's required by it. When we react against the Bible's description of God as a jealous God, we forget that there are times when jealousy is right and appropriate.

In one sense God's jealousy refers to the natural consequences of living in a way that goes against the grain of reality. Anyone who lives as though he isn't responsible for the effects of his actions, as though he is the center of the universe, will always encounter this kind of jealousy. The universe is stacked against idolatry and rebellion.

But the Bible's reference to God's jealousy also makes clear that God's response to our idolatry isn't merely natural, it is personal and supernatural. As hard as it is for us to comprehend, the Creator of the universe is consciously aware of our every foolish act and arrogant thought. When we reject Him, He consciously suffers intense grief, something that in human terms can only be compared with the suffering of a husband with a cheating wife, or a father with wicked, ungrateful sons.

But unlike us, God is perfectly loving. His jealousy is untainted with the malice or envy present in even the most justified human jealousy. He is a heavenly Father ( Matthew 6:32 ; Luke 11:13 ), a gentle Shepherd who protects and nourishes His wayward sheep ( Psalm 23:1-4 ; Isaiah 55:7 ). Because He is true to His nature, this jealous, loving God made provision for our redemption, providing an avenue of reconciliation with Him even after we have spurned His love:

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6).

At just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:6-8).

Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit (1 Peter 3:18).

For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16).

1. Exodus 20:5 declares that God punishes those who hate Him, even to the third and fourth generation. This doesn't mean that God arbitrarily punishes us for sins committed by others. Ezekiel 18 explicitly states that God never punishes a son for the sin of a father or a father for the sin of a son. Punishment can be in the form of the natural consequences of godlessness. Children in a God-hating environment tend to become God-haters too. They become enslaved to evil and suffer the consequences of a life out of sync with natural law. But since God is a personal being, He is behind these so-called natural phenomena in all the awesomeness of His personhood. He may even intervene in the natural course of events in an obviously supernatural way, as He did when He brought drought upon Israel during the time of Elijah as punishment for her idolatry ( 1 Kings 17—19 ). Notice how quickly rain was restored after the Israelites rejected the Baals and declared their restored loyalty to Him ( 19:43-45 ).

Again, its all supported by interpretation of the bible. See my gripes posted in response to Byblos. You have faith so you interpret the bible positively. I interpret it literally and can't believe that the creator of this universe could leave behind such a disjointed and shockingly barbaric tome for his subjects to follow.

Shulgin
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The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully- Richard Dawkins

[Shulgin]

Shulgin, the Bible does not say the world is 6,000 years old. This very website is founded on that principal. If this was one of your stumbling blocks to seeing the truth it's just been removed. Like FFC suggested, why don't you look at the evidence presented by the very people who made it their mission to prove that Jesus isn't who he claims to be. Do that and then come back here and attempt to refute it.

An atheist is a man who has no means of support- John (Byblos).

When you feel like you are at the end of your rope...get a longer rope. -FFC

You inspire me, my Holy Roller friend.

No the bible doesn't specifically say 6000 years old. But do the math Byblos. You have the creation story and Adam and Eve right? We are all descended from them. Look at the geneology. God created the earth then people. It didn't take billions of years to get thru the bible, more like 6000. The exact number of years doesn't matter, it doesn't add up.

Shulgin
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Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence- Anonymous

[Shulgin]

OK, lets try a different tact. Do you believe that the bible is all true? If so, there's much to answer for in the OT (murder, slaves, incest, yadda yadda). If not, then doesn't that cast a huge shadow of doubt on the authenticity of Jesus/god? BTW I've read Strobel and the crew. They offer no credible evidence for anything. Much of it is supposition of others, interviews, etc. I still maintain the above question about the bible, if you believe it, how do you account for the god of the OT and Jesus in the new? If you don't believe it, how do you choose what to believe and what to selectively not believe?

The Bible is collection of stories (true and some parables) that show us (apart from other lessons) that inspite of us being sinners and prone to EVERY sin available to Man...God still loves us and from the beginning had a plan set forth for our rescue. That He is there even when we think He's not...that whether we die or live...He is there.
.
.

Hmm, I would challenge you on the 'love' that god bestowed on his people in the OT. He killed everyone on the planet except those on the ark. That is some real tough love if you could call it love. He created these beings and knows everything about them and then he slaughtered them because he screwed up and wanted to do a restart. Thats love that I want no part of thank you very much.

Shulgin
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God should be executed for crimes against humanity- Bryan Emmanuel Gutierrez

[BavarianWheels]

Hmm, I would challenge you on the 'love' that god bestowed on his people in the OT. He killed everyone on the planet except those on the ark. That is some real tough love if you could call it love. He created these beings and knows everything about them and then he slaughtered them because he screwed up and wanted to do a restart. Thats love that I want no part of thank you very much.

Shulgin

What you fail to see is that God always has His people and they are always protected.

So do you have children?
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[cslewislover]

Again, its all supported by interpretation of the bible. See my gripes posted in response to Byblos. You have faith so you interpret the bible positively. I interpret it literally and can't believe that the creator of this universe could leave behind such a disjointed and shockingly barbaric tome for his subjects to follow.

Shulgin

Historians and archaeologists have shown that much of the bible can be proven or verified. But your concern doesn't seem to actually be whether the bible is true or not. It's that if the bible is true (which you actually seem to be assuming), then you hate God, and are asking how can we possibly have faith in Him and love Him? You think that since I have faith I overlook all the violence and judgment in the bible. But you are mistaken. There are things that are hard to take, but when you look at the Jewish Nation in comparison to its neighbors, there's a difference. Humans have free will and God doesn't stop everything they do. They get evil and violent and God either helps them repent (like with Jonah and the Ninevites), or He judges them. Human culture evolved and changed, and God reacts to it and with it--he doesn't manage all of our affairs.

Have you read the New Testament with an open mind and for all its worth? Have you tried to understand it, or understand God through the New Testament? The New Testament, representing the beginning of a new age (the Church age) is not at all barbaric. Understanding God through the ages is not something that can be written down in a few sentences, paragraphs, or pages, which you seem to want us to do.

[Byblos]

No the bible doesn't specifically say 6000 years old. But do the math Byblos. You have the creation story and Adam and Eve right? We are all descended from them. Look at the geneology. God created the earth then people. It didn't take billions of years to get thru the bible, more like 6000. The exact number of years doesn't matter, it doesn't add up.

Shulgin,

Either you take your time to read the posts, including your own, and honestly interact with them or this is just pointless (which I think it is anyway but I will indulge you while my patience dims).

You said nothing about when man was created. You said the Bible says the world is 6,000. I called you on that and now you're switching tactics to include man in your argument. WE ARE OLD EARTH CREATIONISTS (for the most part). Do you know what that means? Please go to the home page and read some of the articles so you can educate yourself about the people you're attempting to debate and see exactly where they stand on the issues.

Given that we do not believe earth is 6,000 years but more likely 3.5 billion years, it stands to reason that we do not believe man is only 6,000 years either. We may differ on exactly how that came about (between progressive creationism and theistic evolutionism) but that's semantics. So your argument that it doesn't add up is irrelevant, meaningless, and summarily dismissed.

Please let me know if you're ready to engage in an honest debate or I should lock this thread and be done with it.

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Blind faith in happenstance is an ironic gift to return to the very laws of nature that deny it.- (well, you know who)

[Byblos]

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God should be executed for crimes against humanity- Bryan Emmanuel Gutierrez

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First believe he exists then you're more than welcome to pass judgment on him. Watch out though, He's liable to return the favor. - John (Byblos)