Adam & Eve exposed sin

[Noumenon]

Adam and Eves sinfulness was exposed not gained.

Being susceptible to that which is in contrast to God is a condition and/or
attribute of ones nature and not yet an act of will. Since “sin” is the
product of ones act whether willful or otherwise, Adam and Eve according to
the Law were “without sin” before they ate of the forbidden fruit.
However this does not substantiate a position that they were free from a
nature susceptible to sin. A nature such as this is inherently flawed and
weak, when measured to that of God (who represents complete strength) and
therefore is conducive to a sinful act. This is not to say that it ensures
failure for it does not force ones action. However it may influence ones
choice to act.

The predisposition of ones nature however does not negate ones free will
nor make exempt the responsibility of choice and its consequence. Free will
ensures the ability and option to choose, that which is contrary to ones
nature. However the inner strength necessary in order to act as such is
quite a different thing altogether.

This does not negate that they were good, for up until the point of
decision to act wrongfully was actually completed were they within the
limit of the law and thus satisfying the law. However the fact that their
will became corrupt; and even more so was corruptible (or could be
corrupted) and desired that which was against the will of God demonstrates
their weakness. For if they had no inherent weakness what chance then would
sin have had to enter? By what desire from within entices and gives birth
to sin? Certainly not a pure desire, not a desire given by God.

Weakness is indicative of that which is flawed! For to state that they
could not have a sinful nature because God created them and his creation
was good. Would be the equivalent of saying that the Law established by God
could in no way represent death since the law is perfect and good. We see
throughout scripture that this is not the case. However this truth in no
way diminishes the goodness of the law only ratifies that in regards to man
Christ is needed to complete the law. Just as the Spirit of Christ is
necessary to complete the spirit of man.

It is this weakness that separates us from that of Adam and Eve. For since
we are born of Christ our strength is that of Christ and therefore we are
no longer weak but absolutely strong since Christ is absolutely strong. We
also inherit grace due to Christ so that we are no longer subject to the
law for in our weakness alone we cannot fulfill the law. Even if it is
within our will to do so.

For the scripture says...
Romans 7:18
For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I
can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I
want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.

In order that we may be subject unto God fully blameless and complete the
act of redemption was put into place by God. That we would be born of him
and not of Adam alone. So that we would not be the spiritual descendents of
Adam. If this were so (being descendents spiritually of Adam) then our
strength would be "incomplete". The scripture is clear about the fact that
those who are born of Christ are exclusively entitled to inherit the
kingdom of God. Adam and Eve were obviously not born of Christ and
therefore are limited (unlike those sanctified through the blood of Christ)
by an innate vulnerability towards sin.
For the word says...

1 Corinthians 15:42
What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in
dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in
power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If
there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is
written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a
life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual, which is first but the
physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a
man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so
are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those
who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust,
we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.50 I tell you this,
brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the
perishable inherit the imperishable.

There is no scriptural basis by which to claim that Adam and Eve were ever
born of God. Certainly not within the context that the Bible clearly
describes being born of God.

1 John 3:9 - No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in
him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

I am suggesting that the fall fully completes the destiny that God had
pre-established before the foundation of the earth itself.

Ephesians 1:4
“ For he lovingly chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world
that we may be holy and unblemished in his sight. He did this by
predestining us to adoption as his sons through Jesus Christ, according to
the pleasure of his will”….

It is so that the Bible does not mention directly the nature of Adam and
Eve. But it states that the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it
does not submit to the law of God, nor is it able to.

Romans 8:5-8
8:5 For those who live according to the flesh have their outlook shaped by5
the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit have
their outlook shaped by the things of the Spirit. 8:6 For the outlook6 of
the flesh is death, but the outlook of the Spirit is life and peace, 8:7
because the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit
to the law of God, nor is it able to do so. 8:8

It says that each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own
desires. Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is
full grown, it gives birth to death.

James 1:13-15
Let no one say when he is tempted, God tempts me, for God cannot be
tempted by evil, 15 and he himself tempts no one. 1:14 But each one is
tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires. 1:15 Then when
desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it
gives birth to death.

The Bible says that the "sinful nature" desires that which is contrary to
the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the "sinful nature".

Galatians 5:17
Therefore since Adam and Eve were enticed by their own desires and their
desires were contrary to the Spirit then they were acting from a "sinful
nature".

[cslewislover]

Adam and Eves sinfulness was exposed not gained.

Being susceptible to that which is in contrast to God is a condition and/or
attribute of ones nature and not yet an act of will. Since “sin” is the
product of ones act whether willful or otherwise, Adam and Eve according to
the Law were “without sin” before they ate of the forbidden fruit.
However this does not substantiate a position that they were free from a
nature susceptible to sin. A nature such as this is inherently flawed and
weak, when measured to that of God (who represents complete strength) and
therefore is conducive to a sinful act. This is not to say that it ensures
failure for it does not force ones action. However it may influence ones
choice to act.

The predisposition of ones nature however does not negate ones free will
nor make exempt the responsibility of choice and its consequence. Free will
ensures the ability and option to choose, that which is contrary to ones
nature. However the inner strength necessary in order to act as such is
quite a different thing altogether.

This does not negate that they were good, for up until the point of
decision to act wrongfully was actually completed were they within the
limit of the law and thus satisfying the law. However the fact that their
will became corrupt; and even more so was corruptible (or could be
corrupted) and desired that which was against the will of God demonstrates
their weakness. For if they had no inherent weakness what chance then would
sin have had to enter? By what desire from within entices and gives birth
to sin? Certainly not a pure desire, not a desire given by God.

Weakness is indicative of that which is flawed! For to state that they
could not have a sinful nature because God created them and his creation
was good. Would be the equivalent of saying that the Law established by God
could in no way represent death since the law is perfect and good. We see
throughout scripture that this is not the case. However this truth in no
way diminishes the goodness of the law only ratifies that in regards to man
Christ is needed to complete the law. Just as the Spirit of Christ is
necessary to complete the spirit of man.

I would assume here that "good" does not mean "perfect". They (Adam and Eve) were created in the "image" of God, but they were not duplicates of God himself. . . . OK, yes, we need God's strength not to sin and we need Christ to clean us/remake us.

It is this weakness that separates us from that of Adam and Eve. For since
we are born of Christ our strength is that of Christ and therefore we are
no longer weak but absolutely strong since Christ is absolutely strong. We
also inherit grace due to Christ so that we are no longer subject to the
law for in our weakness alone we cannot fulfill the law. Even if it is
within our will to do so.

For the scripture says...
Romans 7:18
For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I
can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I
want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.

In order that we may be subject unto God fully blameless and complete the
act of redemption was put into place by God. That we would be born of him
and not of Adam alone. So that we would not be the spiritual descendents of
Adam. If this were so (being descendents spiritually of Adam) then our
strength would be "incomplete". The scripture is clear about the fact that
those who are born of Christ are exclusively entitled to inherit the
kingdom of God. Adam and Eve were obviously not born of Christ and
therefore are limited (unlike those sanctified through the blood of Christ)
by an innate vulnerability towards sin.
For the word says...

1 Corinthians 15:42
What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in
dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in
power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If
there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is
written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a
life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual, which is first but the
physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a
man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so
are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those
who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust,
we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.50 I tell you this,
brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the
perishable inherit the imperishable.

There is no scriptural basis by which to claim that Adam and Eve were ever
born of God. Certainly not within the context that the Bible clearly
describes being born of God.

1 John 3:9 - No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in
him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

But John says a lot more than that . . . anyway (and I sure hope so, since we all end up sinning anyway).

I am suggesting that the fall fully completes the destiny that God had
pre-established before the foundation of the earth itself.

Ephesians 1:4
“ For he lovingly chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world
that we may be holy and unblemished in his sight. He did this by
predestining us to adoption as his sons through Jesus Christ, according to
the pleasure of his will”….

It is so that the Bible does not mention directly the nature of Adam and
Eve. But it states that the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it
does not submit to the law of God, nor is it able to.

Romans 8:5-8
8:5 For those who live according to the flesh have their outlook shaped by
the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit have
their outlook shaped by the things of the Spirit. 8:6 For the outlook6 of
the flesh is death, but the outlook of the Spirit is life and peace, 8:7
because the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit
to the law of God, nor is it able to do so. 8:8

It says that each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own
desires. Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is
full grown, it gives birth to death.

James 1:13-15
Let no one say when he is tempted, God tempts me, for God cannot be
tempted by evil, 15 and he himself tempts no one. 1:14 But each one is
tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires. 1:15 Then when
desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it
gives birth to death.

The Bible says that the "sinful nature" desires that which is contrary to
the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the "sinful nature".

Galatians 5:17
Therefore since Adam and Eve were enticed by their own desires and their
desires were contrary to the Spirit then they were acting from a "sinful
nature".

Yes, I think God had it all planned out. I mean, He at least knew what would happen and that for us it is a mystery as to why God ordained things to be this way (willful sin entering our first ancestors and then corrupting the rest of our earthly existence). So, you're trying to say that God made sinful nature, correct? We were actually dealing with this some in another thread, but I think that's the one that's gone now (oi - lol). I don't want to rewrite everything. Since God created everything, He created beings that by nature could sin, yes. Quite all right.

Edit: Actually, that thread is here - http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 9&start=30

[catherine]

Very interesting.

[FFC]

Adam and Eves sinfulness was exposed not gained.

Being susceptible to that which is in contrast to God is a condition and/or
attribute of ones nature and not yet an act of will. Since “sin” is the
product of ones act whether willful or otherwise, Adam and Eve according to
the Law were “without sin” before they ate of the forbidden fruit.
However this does not substantiate a position that they were free from a
nature susceptible to sin. A nature such as this is inherently flawed and
weak, when measured to that of God (who represents complete strength) and
therefore is conducive to a sinful act. This is not to say that it ensures
failure for it does not force ones action. However it may influence ones
choice to act.

The predisposition of ones nature however does not negate ones free will
nor make exempt the responsibility of choice and its consequence. Free will
ensures the ability and option to choose, that which is contrary to ones
nature. However the inner strength necessary in order to act as such is
quite a different thing altogether.

This does not negate that they were good, for up until the point of
decision to act wrongfully was actually completed were they within the
limit of the law and thus satisfying the law. However the fact that their
will became corrupt; and even more so was corruptible (or could be
corrupted) and desired that which was against the will of God demonstrates
their weakness. For if they had no inherent weakness what chance then would
sin have had to enter? By what desire from within entices and gives birth
to sin? Certainly not a pure desire, not a desire given by God.

Weakness is indicative of that which is flawed! For to state that they
could not have a sinful nature because God created them and his creation
was good. Would be the equivalent of saying that the Law established by God
could in no way represent death since the law is perfect and good. We see
throughout scripture that this is not the case. However this truth in no
way diminishes the goodness of the law only ratifies that in regards to man
Christ is needed to complete the law. Just as the Spirit of Christ is
necessary to complete the spirit of man.

I would assume here that "good" does not mean "perfect". They (Adam and Eve) were created in the "image" of God, but they were not duplicates of God himself. . . . OK, yes, we need God's strength not to sin and we need Christ to clean us/remake us.

It is this weakness that separates us from that of Adam and Eve. For since
we are born of Christ our strength is that of Christ and therefore we are
no longer weak but absolutely strong since Christ is absolutely strong. We
also inherit grace due to Christ so that we are no longer subject to the
law for in our weakness alone we cannot fulfill the law. Even if it is
within our will to do so.

For the scripture says...
Romans 7:18
For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I
can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I
want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.

In order that we may be subject unto God fully blameless and complete the
act of redemption was put into place by God. That we would be born of him
and not of Adam alone. So that we would not be the spiritual descendents of
Adam. If this were so (being descendents spiritually of Adam) then our
strength would be "incomplete". The scripture is clear about the fact that
those who are born of Christ are exclusively entitled to inherit the
kingdom of God. Adam and Eve were obviously not born of Christ and
therefore are limited (unlike those sanctified through the blood of Christ)
by an innate vulnerability towards sin.
For the word says...

1 Corinthians 15:42
What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in
dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in
power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If
there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is
written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a
life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual, which is first but the
physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a
man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so
are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those
who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust,
we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.50 I tell you this,
brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the
perishable inherit the imperishable.

There is no scriptural basis by which to claim that Adam and Eve were ever
born of God. Certainly not within the context that the Bible clearly
describes being born of God.

1 John 3:9 - No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in
him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

But John says a lot more than that . . . anyway (and I sure hope so, since we all end up sinning anyway).

I am suggesting that the fall fully completes the destiny that God had
pre-established before the foundation of the earth itself.

Ephesians 1:4
“ For he lovingly chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world
that we may be holy and unblemished in his sight. He did this by
predestining us to adoption as his sons through Jesus Christ, according to
the pleasure of his will”….

It is so that the Bible does not mention directly the nature of Adam and
Eve. But it states that the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it
does not submit to the law of God, nor is it able to.

Romans 8:5-8
8:5 For those who live according to the flesh have their outlook shaped by
the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit have
their outlook shaped by the things of the Spirit. 8:6 For the outlook6 of
the flesh is death, but the outlook of the Spirit is life and peace, 8:7
because the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit
to the law of God, nor is it able to do so. 8:8

It says that each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own
desires. Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is
full grown, it gives birth to death.

James 1:13-15
Let no one say when he is tempted, God tempts me, for God cannot be
tempted by evil, 15 and he himself tempts no one. 1:14 But each one is
tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires. 1:15 Then when
desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it
gives birth to death.

The Bible says that the "sinful nature" desires that which is contrary to
the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the "sinful nature".

Galatians 5:17
Therefore since Adam and Eve were enticed by their own desires and their
desires were contrary to the Spirit then they were acting from a "sinful
nature".

Yes, I think God had it all planned out. I mean, He at least knew what would happen and that for us it is a mystery as to why God ordained things to be this way (willful sin entering our first ancestors and then corrupting the rest of our earthly existence). So, you're trying to say that God made sinful nature, correct? We were actually dealing with this some in another thread, but I think that's the one that's gone now (oi - lol). I don't want to rewrite everything. Since God created everything, He created beings that by nature could sin, yes. Quite all right.

Edit: Actually, that thread is here - http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 9&start=30

Maybe God didn't create sinful nature. Maybe Adam introduced it into the world by default when he deliberately disobeyed God and stepped out of Holy fellowship with Him. God must have known the outcome. Either that, or when it comes to our free will choices, He doesn't know which way we will go at any given time. I don't believe that, but I've heard someone express it.