Adam_777 wrote:Hi Everyone, I'm new here and I would like some help. When I discuss things with Atheists one of the topics that I find coming up the most has to do with the commands of God to stone offenders for various offenses or the commanded ruination of neighboring nations. They perceive that if we were "really" following scripture we would follow these commands or they try to label God as "evil" for commanding the Jews to carry out such acts in the OT. One last approach is the claim that this is an "obvious" sign that the God of the Bible was made up to control people and justify conquest similar to the other gods of pagan civilizations.
I understand that we are under the Law of Grace now and Jesus' fulfillment of the Law of Moses has drastically changed how we relate with God and how we relate with each other. I find it rather difficult to communicate the change.
I actively seek seminars and understandings of scholars. I find people like William Lane Craig, Alistair McGrath, and Ravi Zacharias as some of the most helpful apologists today. I haven't found any material from them that goes into great detail regarding this subject.
Oddly enough I have found the best relief on this topic from a rather obscure TV "word of faith" evangelist named Andrew Wommack (He has an intuitive series called “The True Nature of God”). However, I'm seeking help on this topic specifically from an apologist who is also a scholar.
As a Christian, I use the person of Jesus Christ as the pivot point of my faith and understanding. Atheists find this unacceptable and insist that we “justify” God without the pronouncements and understanding that are brought forth in the NT. I know this is unacceptable but I want to learn what the answers are to this type of questioning. I know most of the common Biblical reasoning. I'm just hoping someone can guide me to more in depth information.
I know I just came in here with both guns blazing.
Thanks, in advance, for the responses.
When have I discussed this subject with an atheist I point out several things to him or her. First, they are attacking the validity of the bible. I used to use this '
validity' tactic as a former atheist towards Christians, so let me attempt to give a few pointers.
You'll have to be direct and come to terms to use the bible by saying something along these lines: “
I see you are attacking the validity of the bible by your comments and since the bible is at question, I must be permitted to use it to answer your question.”
Depending on the person, most will acquiesce readily and others may be a bit more intolerant and boisterously poses objections to using the bible. If that is the case, I would politely remind them that they are being narrow-minded by not allowing the bible to answer their own questions. Are they afraid that the bible may dispel their presuppositious answers?
This may go round and round a bit but stick to presenting your case.
Tip: You must understand the Hebrew concept of name means. It was used to describe the nature and character of the one who is 'so named.' To blaspheme 'the name' means to use ones characteristic against that person to get away with something as well as get what you want. Very similar how a person test's another love's; For example, “
I can't be punished for this infraction because to do so would prove that they do not love me, so I'll commit a morally outrages act because God will never punish because he is so loving….”
Next — know your case by gaining insight in who God is - his nature and character as well as how people abuse his name everyday:
When the bible speaks in the OT about stoning and putting to death these were written for the Children of Israel during an ancient time and place. Jesus set us free from the law of sin and death. The reason for this type of severity was to stop those in covenant with God from blaspheming the name of God.
Do not use the word '
blaspheme' instead think of it as taking advantage of God's good character. Staining and misusing God's good and loving character for ones own selfish gain or justifcation is how one blasphemes the name of the Lord. (Tip: The word translated name denotes ones character...)
Look at the following scriptures:
Lev 20:2-3, "
Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. 3 I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name." ESV
The rites of Molech are basically, taking an infant or child, and placing them in such manner as to burn to death in a roasted meal for Molech to devour. This violates God's life giving nature and thus profanes his Holy Character of a life giving God. Remember, God's gift of life is a gift and he will not violate his gifts.
This practice involved the practice of killing babies, either by forcing out of the womb or even a young age. This practice may have involved cannibalism as well. What do we do with the vilest of serial killers who prey on children and devour them? We put them to death either by force or confine to die according to old age where they can do no harm. Why cannot God?
(Tip: Turn their objections back on them)
Lev 24:11, 16, “
...and the Israelite woman's son blasphemed the Name, and cursed. Then they brought him to Moses. His mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan….16 Whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death. " ESV
Again misusing God's love and goodness to continue to sin is how one blasphemes. Or example, Romans 6:1 concept of being “under grace so that we may sin freely' is the theme of this story. Or if a person says, 'I am part of the covenant people and because of this I can do as I please…and get away with doing harm.” That was why they had that sentence upon them.
Point this out to them — “How have we all misused God's grace and mock him everyday by how we live?” point out their own objections to them. Show that they need forgiveness and how imperfect they are. This takes prayer and skill to develop…
Num 15:30, 35, “
But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the LORD, and that person shall be cut off from among his people. 35 And the LORD said to Moses, "The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." ESV
Again reviles by misusing God's love and mercy to keep rebellious ways alive…
Everyone is guilty of rebellion and misusing the God who is as the Psalmist describes:
Psalms 145:8-20, “
The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. 9 The LORD is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made….Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures throughout all generations. (The LORD is faithful in all his words and kind in all his works.)” ESV
We all abuse his grace and mercy because he is slow to anger. We abuse his steadfast love in doing things that try his love and patience like.... (you fill in the blank here)
Psalms 145:16-20, “
You open your hand; you satisfy the desire of every living thing....”
God satisfies the desires of every living and since we are alive, this means if you do not want anything to do with God, he will grant that request, a place without God and without his love or grace.
Psalms 145:20, “
The LORD preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy.”
Basically, pray and seek out ways that people take advantage of God's good nature and make it fit personally to whom you are speaking too.
We are all by human nature, children of wrath who need adopted to become God's children. That is what God desires. He offers this freely. Atheists seem to want a harsh austere God easily manipulated and not one who is just - who will grant them what they want in the end...
Here you can begin to preach the cross of Christ to them and share how Jesus paid the penalty for our abusive and rebellious ways….
At least make them think…
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