What is drunkeness?

[LinkJ86]

I've been struggling with this issue for a while now: I am a Christian and do drink, but in the bible it strictly warns against drunkness yet condoning the actual act of drinking (wine, beer, etc..) It is clear to me that drunkeness in the bible leads to sin, (eg. Lot being drunk and having sex with his daughters), the reason for drunkeness leading to the potential to sin is solely because intaking enough alcohol in the body will eventually lead to the inability to control one's self. So my main question is, to what point does drinking actually become a sin? Many times I have drank and I have felt the effects of alcohol but still have the ability to control myself and actually have the ability to say no to sin, in fact many times I feel convicted to have conversations with my friends about Jesus and usually pour out all my emotion to my friends about Christ. So how can that be a sin? When in fact it leads me to focus on Christ. So is it to the point that I black out and literally cant control my actions that I am actually drunk and sinning? yes some might argue, well some people cannot control themselves even if they feel a little bit tipsy and usually tend to sin so it is plain straight out wrong to feel a little bit mind altered. Well that may be the case for them, but I know for me that is not the case. So my question is, when am I actually considered drunk, according to the bible?

[Judah]

I think, to some extent, you have answered your own question... that it has to do with "self-control" and the avoidance of sin.

For what it is worth, here is my own answer.

How much is OK and where the limit should be set must take into account a number of factors, some individually determined and others best considered in the light of those two great commandments Jesus gave us: Matthew 22:37-40
Most folks have seen examples of drunkeness to be sure what it is, but determining the point at which you stop drinking before getting there needs to address these other factors as well.

You might enjoy drinking socially and benefit from the sense of relaxation that comes with doing so, the taste (for those like myself who have an interest in good wines) and the pleasure of sharing with others, and find that this causes no difficulties at all in your relationship with God.
But this situation will very likely change when you have drunk to the extent that your conscience becomes dulled and your talk or behaviour is beyond that which your God-inspired "better judgement" would otherwise have you do.

Not forgetting that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, you are charged with the need to take very good care of it and also consider factors besides just your behaviour.
Taking myself as an example, one glass of wine is fine, but any more than one is certainly not fine as I am a diabetic and must balance things extremely carefully if I am to have a drink with a meal.
One of my friends, an anaesthesiologist, will not drink at all as she doesn't like the look of what it can do to the liver - and she has seen plenty of those to make a credible judgement.
Others who are recovered alcoholics will often know they must not drink at all, that their personal limit is zero drinks.
On the other hand, we are told that a little red wine can have great medicinal health-giving effects, and just like food, is yet another good gift from God if used appropriately and not abused.

If you are a Christian, then your love for your neighbour must affect your decision whether to have a drink or not. Whereas it may not be sinful for you to drink in one situation, to do so in another may be completely uncaring and wrong. I would choose not to have a drink with a friend who is a recovering alcoholic, for example.

I think you probably do know how much you can drink, feel the beneficial effects of your drinking, and still be in fellowship with God. But if not, trying talking with Him about it.
Just remember that there is usually more than one factor besides signs of intoxication and drunkeness to consider.

[AndrewK]

This is a pretty old one, but I ran across it and found it to be pretty interesting. Drunkenness is mentioned as a sin, but unlike many other sins (though like quite a few as well) it is not always so clear when a line has been crossed. It is always agreed to be a sin, but the point at which it is reached is more subjective. I guess my view fits largely with the above opinions, that one should not get so drunk as to no longer recognize the difference between right and wrong. Like the above, I also think that the circumstances can dictate alcohol use. For example I have some friends who don't drink at all, and I will generally not drink around them out of respect for this decision. Another example, I am more likely to drink a larger amount in a controlled environment (such as at home among friends who I can trust) than in a chaotic area like a bar, where trouble and temptation are more likely to break out. When you can't recognize a stupid decision for what it is, I'd say you've crossed the line. Also, if you start to feel that you need alcohol and are living to get more (such as in the start of an addiction) then you have a problem. Remember, Jesus said that it is what comes out of the mouth that matters, not what goes in. The unfortunate side effect of alcohol is that it can affect what comes out of the mouth (and other actions). If you can keep reasonable control of yourself I'd say you're doing ok. I think one of the most important things to know when drinking is to know when to stop.

For a time I used to enjoy becoming quite drunk without a care of how often I did it. Eventually I started to feel convicted about this and cut back. Now I try to only drink once to twice a month, often no more than a single drink. Though I will drink occasionally to get a bit tipsy, I will keep a check on my moral compass to make sure it's still clear. For example, one time I was out camping with friends and I when I was pretty tipsy went with some of them to visit with a few other people I didn't know. Well, this other guy, who had also had a few, started badmouthing some of my favorite bands, then got into politics (and wouldn't you know it he's the exact opposite of me). As soon as I saw where the conversation was going and how fervent this person was I stopped to think, and then decided that the best thing to do was to just walk away, thus avoiding any trouble that could have occurred. Furthermore, I have no problem with telling others that because of my faith I will only drink to a certain point. Granted, at that point I would definitely not trust myself to drive home, but I would still trust myself to avoid a bad decision.

That's just my view, take it or leave it.

I'd love to get some other opinions on this subject.

[Cross.eyed]

I haven't drank in years but a rule of thumb to go by, from professionals, is to remember that the first faculty to suffer is rational thought.

Some drinkers can tolerate alcohol more than others but the difference is negligible for the average consumer.
So, if you don't want to slip into irrationality stop at the known limit.

Just a note and my thinking only; If I were going to testify about Christ, even if I did imbibe, I wouldn't drink on that day at all. It's just that I can't imagine not being affected by even only one drink.

I know.... just my .02

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I tend to agree with all of what you had to say, Andrew.

I would add that if someone is a member of a church where drinking is considered bad, then that person should not drink, or should consider attending a different church. I say this from personal experience: I attended a Fundamentalist Baptist church where all alcohol was seen as from the Devil. I continued to drink alcoholic beverages but chose not to say anything to other members of the congregation, using Romans 14 as my justification.

Do you know what happened? I began feeling like a hypocrite, as if I was doing something wrong; I worried about where I might hide the wine bottles that are visible in my kitchen should a member of the congregation drop by!

True freedom consists with the observance of law. Adam was as free in paradise as in the wilds to which he was banished for his transgression. -Thornton

While there is much good to be said for the strict framework of Fundamentalist Baptist worship, I wasn't following its rules and had thus tied up a heavy burden on my shoulders and had made myself twice as much a child of Hell as before.

In John 8:32, Jesus says, «Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.» Free? If you need a dictionary definition of free, here it is: Not subject to a particular ruling, authority, or obligation: enjoying a special priviledge or immunity. (Merriam Webster)

It is easy for Christians to understand the second part of this definition of free: enjoying a special priviledge or immunity, as this is the essence of the gift of grace God has given us, priviledge to be called His own, and immunity from punishment. The first part of the definition of free is more difficult for us: Not subject to a particular ruling, authority, or obligation. How can this be? Am I really totally FREE or am I free with conditions?

Christians of all persuasions want to be free with conditions. And all our denominations are more than happy to provide us with the conditions of Freedom. Problem is, God never imposed conditions in the first place! Ponder this remarkable statement Paul writes in Romans 14:14, As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food [that nothing] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.

I haven't drank in years but a rule of thumb to go by, from professionals, is to remember that the first faculty to suffer is rational thought.

Some drinkers can tolerate alcohol more than others but the difference is negligible for the average consumer.
So, if you don't want to slip into irrationality stop at the known limit.

Just a note and my thinking only; If I were going to testify about Christ, even if I did imbibe, I wouldn't drink on that day at all. It's just that I can't imagine not being affected by even only one drink.

I know.... just my .02

Cross.eyed has established the limit for himself. My former Baptist Congregation has established their own limits. Both are fine and agree with Romans 14:14.

Now, I have this bottle of fine bourbon I'd like to tell you about...

FL

[Cross.eyed]

Good post FL, the best way to learn limits is by scripture.

Whether it be alcohol, food, cars, homes, etc., there are surely limits to anything and The Bible is the place to go to when in doubt.

I like to think on The Seven Deadly Sins and how they apply to my walk with Christ.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Whether it be alcohol, food, cars, homes, etc., there are surely limits to anything and The Bible is the place to go to when in doubt.

We are not talking about limits here. Freedom isn't about limits, biblical freedom is the absence of limits, like it or not. I think you mean self-restraint. That is something totally different.

As Christians, I, Andrew, and yourself all exercise self-restraint.

FL

[Cross.eyed]

Whether it be alcohol, food, cars, homes, etc., there are surely limits to anything and The Bible is the place to go to when in doubt.

We are not talking about limits here. Freedom isn't about limits, biblical freedom is the absence of limits, like it or not. I think you mean self-restraint. That is something totally different.

As Christians, I, Andrew, and yourself all exercise self-restraint.

FL

You are correct-self restraint is a better term.