Once Saved always saved?

[B. W.]

I still believe whole heartedly that the scriptures when read all together and in context, are quite clear that salvation can be lost. Jacuesb quoted very strong scriptures in support of this: Romans 11:17 and onwards, and I'd like to stress verse 22:

Consider therefore the kindness and sterness of God: sterness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. Otherwise you will also be cut off.

Please note:

Romans 11:20, "...That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear..."

The Context...

Romans 11:25-17, "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

This is why such doctrine that teaches replacement theology is wrong. God will not forsake the Jewish people, nor replace them with the Church. Such that adhere to such doctrine do run the risk of being cut off. That is the message of Romans chapter eleven.

For us note:

Luke 8:11-15, "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

'12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

"13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

"14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.

"15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience."

...Yes, a person that is without true faith in God will be broken off and fall away but this does not mean they were saved before. A Person can also go through a crisis of faith and may appear lost to us but is not. It is best to leave such final judgment up to God.
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[catherine]

B.W, you make 2 interesting points:

Israel still God's chosen nation - I'm confused about this and tend to think that this is no longer the case, but I'm still studying this and I'm sure there are many posts about this.

Not knowing for sure if people are 'saved'. This is true, only God knows some one's heart. I still maintain you can be like the prodigal son and leave the 'father', sqander your inheritance and unlike the prodigal son, don't return to be forgiven. I've been a 'back slider' and am trying to return to my heavenly father but it is very hard - if you lose your 'saltiness' how can you get it back, but with God all things are possible. It is very hard though.......

[B. W.]

B.W, you make 2 interesting points:

Israel still God's chosen nation - I'm confused about this and tend to think that this is no longer the case, but I'm still studying this and I'm sure there are many posts about this.

Not knowing for sure if people are 'saved'. This is true, only God knows some one's heart. I still maintain you can be like the prodigal son and leave the 'father', sqander your inheritance and unlike the prodigal son, don't return to be forgiven. I've been a 'back slider' and am trying to return to my heavenly father but it is very hard - if you lose your 'saltiness' how can you get it back, but with God all things are possible. It is very hard though.......

I attempted to share Christians can and at times do go through crisis' of faith. We all can backslide. The point is, a Christian will return to the Lord at some point. Through such times, the Lord uses to better our faith and make us stronger as well as teach us something we need to learn.

That something is found in 1 John 1:8-9, “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” ESV

1 John 2:1, “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous…” ESV

Often we learn that our love for the world is great, so great, we backslide. Sometimes the only way to awake us to our need to get back on track is to go through a process of realizing that the world can never satisfy. After this, we return to the Lord in the proscribe manner the Apostle John wrote about.

No times like this are pleasant; however, afterwards, after returning to the Lord, it becomes clearer that it exposed something in us that needs removed and cleansed. The point is returning and confessing to be cleansed.

As for the nation of Israel, the Jewish people, they are still God chosen people and the apple of his eye. One day, they will look upon the one whom they have pierced. For those that hold to the doctrine of Replacement Theology they had a hard time adjusting to the Jews returning to Israel and becoming a nation born in one day as the bible specifically tells of. Before that time, this doctrine made sense to many but it is wrong and was used to hurt the Jewish people in diverse ways. It is time for people to shed this doctrine.
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[jaquesb]

Isreal is for sure still Gods chosen people. Anybody that thinks different is in big trouble. As B.W say, that is the actual message of Romans 11, because Rom 9-11 is written mainly for the Jews, but 11 is for both the Jews and the Gentiles.

The centre point of Revelations is not about the church so much as it is for the Jews. The Temple will be rebuild, the Remnant, the 144,000, all that is for and about the Jews. The two wise men is going to profecy and talk in Jerusalem.

Read the book John Hagee's Jerusalem Countdown.

Enjoy your day

[catherine]

I've got Jerusalem Countdown, I got it when it first came out. It's funny I glanced at it the other day and thought I must read that again. One thing I would say, is that those folk who believe the sacrifices will resume when the temple is rebuilt, I believe that God would find this abhorrent. Jesus put an end to animal sacrifices and he said he was the temple and would rebuild it in three days, so I'm confused about why the 'old covenant' things ie the temple, sacrifices etc need to be set up again, when Jesus established his new covenant. The new Jerusalem will come down from Heaven so that is a special heavenly thing but I'm struggling to see this other stuff. God so loved THE WORLD, and as Paul says, there is neither Jew nor Greek etc. The majority of 'Jews' today are secular and the present Israeli State seems pretty secular to me. Anyway I'm rambling and going off topic. I'll leave this stuff to God, I've got to sort my own salvation out anyway.

[cslewislover]

It seems to me from the overall contexts, too, that one can lose one's salvation. It would seem an unusual thing, but still possible. I have heard of a couple of people that denied Christ years after they were "saved." In our church I've heard pastors say that if it appears that someone has lost their salvation, maybe they were never saved in the first place. We can't know men's hearts (or who's written in the book of life), only God can. I do think that you are indeed held by Christ even if you do some sinning that is unconfessed or perhaps not repented for, as long as your faith in Him as your savior is sure. Madscientist has been coming from a Catholic background, right? A really excellent book to read on this is Revelation of Love (or Revelation of Divine Love) by Julian of Norwich (there are different authors/translators since it's been around a very long time).

[BavarianWheels]

It seems to me from the overall contexts, too, that one can lose one's salvation. It would seem an unusual thing, but still possible. I have heard of a couple of people that denied Christ years after they were "saved." In our church I've heard pastors say that if it appears that someone has lost their salvation, maybe they were never saved in the first place. We can't know men's hearts (or who's written in the book of life), only God can. I do think that you are indeed held by Christ even if you do some sinning that is unconfessed or perhaps not repented for, as long as your faith in Him as your savior is sure. Madscientist has been coming from a Catholic background, right? A really excellent book to read on this is Revelation of Love (or Revelation of Divine Love) by Julian of Norwich (there are different authors/translators since it's been around a very long time).

What if they died before they had a chance to deny Christ?
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[cslewislover]

I'd like to look up some quotes on this, so maybe I'll edit this later. I believe God knows all who will be saved, that we're predestined and foreknown. Therefore, for those who haven't heard of Christ from another human, they will know enough through God's spirit to decide whether they will accept or deny Him. I do also believe that we're responsible for what we know; however, if a person has heard of Christ without confessing faith to anyone before they die, it's still God's knowledge and decision whether that person is saved or not. I am not at all legalistic in the sense that if you never heard of Christ, or confessed Him openly somehow, that you're going to go to hell.

[Rogerscottq]

There are so many 'experts' who want to accentuate some one or another
particular phrase from exant scripture. And so, by creating a kind of
pastiche, their own particular form of morality is being proposed.

I don't judge such creations. They are infinite in number because
anyone can take any number of different verses to justify their
own particular point of view.

My Lord said: Divorce is of your fathers, because of the harndess of
your hearts, but from the beginning, it was not so.

But, according to the given 'Law', divorce was actually so given by even
very God. That 'I AM'.

This seems to be a problem that divided Paul from Peter and the other
apostles, as to what is of Jesus, the Christ, and what is of the
'fathers' or accepted doctrine.

The disciples ate wheat-corns without washing their hands, and Jesus
didn't think that was as important as the critics felt it to be.

Jesus gave power to man to forgive sin, but the tradition, as interpreted,
was that only God could forgive sin.

And today, the various 'churches' hold that Jesus displaced very God or
that "I AM", and that believing in 'God' or 'YHVH' must mean believing
in Jesus.

And so, evidently, according to all these 'authorities', 'belief in God'
means having some special ability to discern between the 'Word of God'
and the 'word of men'.

According to the word of Jesus, the word of 'God' in many instances is
not truly the word of 'I AM', but the word of the 'fathers' or 'Rabbis'.

Otherwise, how can 'divorce' be acceptable?

If the word of Jesus is: originally, man and woman were one flesh once
bound, and let no man put it asunder, then how does there be but
one continuous 'word'?

For according to the old Word, divorce was given?

This issue of discernment, it seems, according to these divisive
issues thus delineated impels us to use our own judgement and be
willing to live with the consequences.

As for me, I think that the demonstrative life of Jesus most accords
with the dictums in Jeremiah, 9: 24.

If we cannot be lovingkind, fair and truthful, we don't know
God or good.

As mere beasts ere the Word comes into our hearts, we are just
liars and doing what most promotes survival. Lie, cheat, steal and
even murder.

But a kinder influence comes to us.

I believe that the actual life of one that lived and died and lived
again in the very flesh can be discerned in just oral history.

And that much of that actually has extended in time through nothing
more than parental behaviours without reference to rote echoing of
some printed word en toto, which the fanatics adhere to. Despite
all internal contradiction.

What will matter is that the individual will refer at last count
to the only voice left, when all outer voices are stilled or
beyond contact. That's an internal reach. An immediate and final
touch: I AM is God. I AM is rest. I AM is the door. I AM is
the root. I AM is the branch. I AM is Savior.

That seems closer than breathing, nearer than hands and feet,
to quote Tennyson (Higher Pantheism).

So, when Jesus said: 'Lo, I am with you always, even to the ends
of the earth (or 'world')', did he mean HE was with us always
or that 'I AM' is with us always?

If Jesus is very I AM, then what fear have we of death? Seeing
he conquered the world? And he is our very I AM?

If he was simply saying, 'As I am, you are, and what I do, you can do
and greater things can youd do', it allows for two world views:

Jesus is God and:

Jesus is brother.

But, you cannot decide. For according to the extant word, Jesus said to
Mary:

Tell my brothers: I go to my God and your God, to my Father and your Father.

And yet, Jesus told them: he who sees me, sees the Father.

So, there has to be some other criterion than what henceforth has
divided all of us.

And so back to Jeremiah 9: 24

But then back to Jesus.

Where does the buck stop?

Who is willing to live the life?

I'm not buying people who think 'confessing the name of Jesus'
will simply excuse them from continuing to do evil or acceding to
mortality.

I believe Jesus proved that death was overcome by actually serving
and living a life centered on the good of others. Denying self.

What else is new? Ever been a parent?

But we still worship death by preparing for it.

But Jesus proved that death is no more.

Yet, we as Christians, still build grave-yards.

Still seek out 'doctors', whom Jesus mocked.

We are hypocrits.

We are still afraid to do what our Master set forth by
thought, word and act.

We are afraid, and our fear dooms us.

But the fact that we give up our lives for our friends
saves us.

In being married, giving up personal preferences or laziness
for the sake of wives, husbands, children, neighbors
or friends, we are living the Christ life.

Yet we give up on this power of the Holy Spirit as we
give into aging and abandoment of our elderly and we
continue to fear death, as if it were anything.

Yet according to our Lord, it is not anything.

He rose. Ate fish and honey-comb. But we don't believe.

We don't believe.

As proven by our actions.

[cslewislover]

Hi rogerscottq. So are you saying, in part, that we shouldn't go to Doctors? You wouldn't take your child to a doctor? Besides that question, I'm wondering how your post fits in with the thread topic.

[brandiejenn]

Just my opinion but if a person is truely saved then he or she may slip from time to time, and sometimes even doubt their own faith,
after all we are only human. I myself was saved when I was very young, however for years I walked a different path. I did not denounce God or the church I just felt that the church was full of hypocrits. I lost my way and my faith. But all that time I would feel a tug at my heart to get back into church. I would go to church for awhile and then return to my same old routine. It wasn't until I was 47 and really started looking at myself and what my life had been like up until now that I decided to give church another chance. This time I look at my faith as a personel relationship with God. Now I understand so much more and it all seems so clear now to me. I praise God everyday for not giving up on me.
So to answer your question I think that once you are saved you are always saved, but at the same time a person that knowingly abuses or continues in their sinful ways without begging for forgiveness and really meaning it from the heart will be cast out. But please remember this is not God's doing this is however your choice and if you choice this path then God will let you. Freewill

Bill

[Rogerscottq]

Hi rogerscottq. So are you saying,
in part, that we shouldn't go to Doctors? You wouldn't take your child to
a doctor? Besides that question, I'm wondering how your post fits in
with the thread topic.

I don't have anything to say beyond what I've said, en toto. Not in part.

If what I said, in all, doesn't fit the 'thread topic', just ignore it.

[cslewislover]

Hi rogerscottq. So are you saying,
in part, that we shouldn't go to Doctors? You wouldn't take your child to
a doctor? Besides that question, I'm wondering how your post fits in
with the thread topic.

I don't have anything to say beyond what I've said, en toto. Not in part.

If what I said, in all, doesn't fit the 'thread topic', just ignore it.

Un Toto en la canasta vale dos totos en el monte.*



* One Toto in the basket is worth two totos in the bush.

"in toto" = in total