How do we know

[Byblos]

This has some bearing on the topic being discussed:

I found out that at my church, one of the members was recently convicted for 1st degree murder, with a sentence of life imprisonment and a possibility of parole after having served 25 years. I found this out during last Wednesday's Bible study.

I was surprised. I asked the others present if this man was born-again and no one answered except the man who had brought us this news. «Yes, he is saved» was the answer. The pastor didn't say anything. So I asked, «How can a saved individual commit murder?» and I was told that this man had had a drug addiction and that the murder was commited while stoned yet saved.

Comments?

FL

I would say no one else but he and God know.

[B. W.]

One must also consider what Jesus meant by knowing a tree by its fruit. One of the cost of easy believism is a weak anemic Church. So is easy believism really all there is too it or is there a cost?

If you mention this, people wrongly assume one is a legalist. All it takes is to simply believe in Christ to be saved; however, you can believe that you believe but not really believe at all. Such is self deception.

When you really believe in something — you live out that belief. Like Miriam (Numbers 12), you may fall away for a season but the Lord sends such outside the camp in a process of time so they can reflect on the condition of their heart. After a period of time, they return. Heart is cleansed.

We like to argue the case of Joe the Reprobate. Old Joe was a horrible sinner, gets saved in Church one day and at the alter dies of a heart attack. Is he saved? Did his belief save him? I would say yes because knowing God the way I do — I can see God's wisdom in this. But for the rest of us, we linger, are our faith grows in the Lord day by day because we believe.

We may, or may not, stumble in some severe way but the fruit that lives produce is being transformed into more Christ like character day by day. Some days it requires very much pain. Other times - not. We may have to sit out side the camp, like Miriam, in out contrived leprous state until we repent of the error of our ways. Such is God's great love that never lets us go — no matter what. Jesus said this is John 10 and I make no excuses that He did not mean what he says.

There are those that believe that they believe but do not really believe. These will not return to the Lord for they truly have not believed. Call them what you will, reprobate Christians who lost their salvation or those that never really grasped hold of salvation in the first place is not really important to argue over. God knows who are his and the bible tells us that those that do know him are to do something.

The fruit of the teachings that 'easy believism' produces speaks for itself: the state of the modern church reflects this well. Jesus did mention that there is a cost to follow him. How can easy believism honestly teach this aspect of the gospel? All people are not like Joe the reprobate sinner dying of a heart attack the second he became saved. Most of us, like Miriam, have lessons to learn.

Let us return to the camp and reflect more of Christ and less of ourselves. Believing is also living our lives as a living example of what we believe in. We are Christians by God's hands. It is about time we live it:

Reflecting forgiveness, love, a little moxey, shedding the old man and putting on the new, etc and etc. These are not popular topics with 'easy believism' but again, a tree is known by its fruit...
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[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Thanks to cslewislover, Byblos and B.W. for your answers!

When you really believe in something — you live out that belief. Like Miriam (Numbers 12), you may fall away for a season but the Lord sends such outside the camp in a process of time so they can reflect on the condition of their heart. After a period of time, they return. Heart is cleansed.

I got more news today on this man from my church who murdered someone. Apparently, he is satisfied with his sentence and does not want to appeal. He says he deserves what he got and will serve God in prison. Very bizarre story.

FL