One or two anomalies

[rmil65]

Hi new to the forum. Have just skimmed through a few articles which have already raised a few questions.
1"If God had created the universe with no possibility of evil or sin, then the created beings would have had no free will, and, as such, would essentially be programmed computers. Such beings would be incapable of love, since love involves making a choice - which requires the ability to choose not to love"

Not much of a choice then is it? Choose option A love and worship me, or option B decline and suffer eternal damnation.Hmmm, let me think for a moment...
Didn't he realise how messy it would all get, necessitating creating a son (who is also himself?? sorry, I never did get the trinity thing) and then sacrificing him to sort it all out.

2 "The 2nd law of thermodynamics clearly shows that the universe was designed to be temporary"
You seem happy to quote the 2nd law of thermodynamics (and it's quoted a lot on this site!) when it helps affirm the end of the world is indeed nigh but not when it also explains the big bang theory.

3 He (maybe) reduced the number of potential fatalities on Sept 11th 2001. Praise the lord!! I wonder what his selection criteria were. Oh sorry I forgot, he works in mysterious ways, and anyway a bit of suffering is necessary for the whole operation to work. I bet the bereaved families are so relieved.

[Canuckster1127]

Which articles are you referring to?

[BavarianWheels]

Hi new to the forum. Have just skimmed through a few articles which have already raised a few questions.
1"If God had created the universe with no possibility of evil or sin, then the created beings would have had no free will, and, as such, would essentially be programmed computers. Such beings would be incapable of love, since love involves making a choice - which requires the ability to choose not to love"

Not much of a choice then is it? Choose option A love and worship me, or option B decline and suffer eternal damnation.Hmmm, let me think for a moment...
Didn't he realise how messy it would all get, necessitating creating a son (who is also himself?? sorry, I never did get the trinity thing) and then sacrificing him to sort it all out.

It's still a choice isn't it? If you made the choice of B, and later find A was the better choice, don't be upset at anyone but yourself. If A turns out to be fantasy, then laugh all the way up to your death for that is all there will be. Why complain about fanciful thoughts of "saved" lives if you don't believe in such? To a non-believer, all life is lost at random. I really don't get your point here.

2 "The 2nd law of thermodynamics clearly shows that the universe was designed to be temporary"
You seem happy to quote the 2nd law of thermodynamics (and it's quoted a lot on this site!) when it helps affirm the end of the world is indeed nigh but not when it also explains the big bang theory.

Who's arguing against the BBT?

3 He (maybe) reduced the number of potential fatalities on Sept 11th 2001. Praise the lord!! I wonder what his selection criteria were. Oh sorry I forgot, he works in mysterious ways, and anyway a bit of suffering is necessary for the whole operation to work. I bet the bereaved families are so relieved.

If He did, then there are some families that are happy for the fact. Those that lost loved ones, if they're Christian, have hope. The rest mourn the complete extinction of their loved ones...which if there is no God would be the EXACT SAME outcome.
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[rmil65]

Which articles are you referring to?

My three points are all from the 'Answers for atheists' section.

It's still a choice isn't it? If you made the choice of B, and later find A was the better choice, don't be upset at anyone but yourself. If A turns out to be fantasy, then laugh all the way up to your death for that is all there will be. Why complain about fanciful thoughts of "saved" lives if you don't believe in such? To a non-believer, all life is lost at random. I really don't get your point here.

If you are held up by a gunman who says A. hand over your cash or B. I'll blow your brains out, he is giving you a 'choice' . My point is that god is not really giving his beings free choice, as the consequence of not taking the option he wants you to take is eternal damnation. Pretty loaded odds don't you think?

Who's arguing against the BBT?

Err, doesn't the whole section on Genesis, creation etc ?

In reply to the 9/11 scenario, all human suffering is regrettable. I am very fortunate and hopefully will be laughing and enjoying my life right up until I die. But a lot of the world population isn't so fortunate, and I do not understand why you think god actively encourages, nay invented, suffering. (By you I mean whoever wrote the site articles). You have provided the answer - 'all life is lost at random'. A zebra doesn't cry out 'why me oh lord!' as the lion sinks her teeth into it, nor do the other zebras think 'oh well, he's gone to a better place' (with respect to all zebras I don't know really what they're thinking, but I suspect it's something like "Lion!! RUN FOR IT"). But we vastly more intelligent and imaginative creatures seem to seek out a spiritual answer for each eventuality, the idea that [poop] happens is just too unsatisfactory for our busy minds.

Of course, without religion 9/11 wouldn't have happened, and that is something we can aspire to.

[BavarianWheels]

It's still a choice isn't it? If you made the choice of B, and later find A was the better choice, don't be upset at anyone but yourself. If A turns out to be fantasy, then laugh all the way up to your death for that is all there will be. Why complain about fanciful thoughts of "saved" lives if you don't believe in such? To a non-believer, all life is lost at random. I really don't get your point here.

If you are held up by a gunman who says A. hand over your cash or B. I'll blow your brains out, he is giving you a 'choice' . My point is that god is not really giving his beings free choice, as the consequence of not taking the option he wants you to take is eternal damnation. Pretty loaded odds don't you think?

Not at all. If you're not a believer now...does God have a gun to your head to kill you if you don't believe/love Him? No...you're living and are afforded to live out your life on earth to the happiest YOU are able to make of it even though you don't believe. Your analogy hardly even comes close. There's a HUGE difference between an ultimatum and consequences.

Who's arguing against the BBT?

Err, doesn't the whole section on Genesis, creation etc ?

Belief in Creation hardly does away with the BBT. Or is that news to you?

In reply to the 9/11 scenario, all human suffering is regrettable. I am very fortunate and hopefully will be laughing and enjoying my life right up until I die. But a lot of the world population isn't so fortunate, and I do not understand why you think god actively encourages, nay invented, suffering. (By you I mean whoever wrote the site articles). You have provided the answer - 'all life is lost at random'. A zebra doesn't cry out 'why me oh lord!' as the lion sinks her teeth into it, nor do the other zebras think 'oh well, he's gone to a better place' (with respect to all zebras I don't know really what they're thinking, but I suspect it's something like "Lion!! RUN FOR IT"). But we vastly more intelligent and imaginative creatures seem to seek out a spiritual answer for each eventuality, the idea that [poop] happens is just too unsatisfactory for our busy minds.

Of course, without religion 9/11 wouldn't have happened, and that is something we can aspire to.

I disagree. Regardless if God exists or not (and my belief is that He does) religion would/does exist. If it is that there is no God NOW, then religion has/does exist, so your argument is flawed. It is by this same nature that you mention that makes a thinking creature ask questions and from questions stems ultimately in a belief of something higher, be it a diety or aliens from other planets.

The fact is that you CAN live your life right up until you die. We all will. It's silly to think otherwise. Everyone lives until they die, whether laughing or crying. If God exists, and you choose to not believe, are you not afforded life with happiness? It is a fact, that poop does happen in THIS world with or without God. And "God" tells us why the poop is here and what caused it.

[robyn hill]

rmil65
You state that we only have two choices, one of which is choosing eternal damnation. You kind of make your own noose there with your own argument because essentially you are saying "What person would choose otherwise?' But you your self have chosen otherwise?? So that argument doesn't really make sense.
Actually, God does a pretty great job of creating a perfect balance. see beow
If we had proof of God, we wouldn't have faith
if we had proof of God, we wouldn't have our own personality or integrity.
If we had proof of God, we wouldn't have free will
Yet, he gives us a promise and if we humble ourselves and try a little belief we experience much that is supernatural and then validating the rest.
There really couldn't be a more perfect balanced method for a creator to give it's creation both personality and everlasting life. if you can think of one I'd sure love to hear it.

you also said:
He (maybe) reduced the number of potential fatalities on Sept 11th 2001. Praise the lord!! I wonder what his selection criteria were. Oh sorry I forgot, he works in mysterious ways, and anyway a bit of suffering is necessary for the whole operation to work. I bet the bereaved families are so relieved.

What????

The 9/11 occasion. You are condradicting your own argument. You are saying God gave us free will, according to Christians, but here you say he reduced the number of fatalities. Which is it you think we believe, free will or God's hand controlling the outcomes?
If God gave us free will, which is what Christians beleive, he would be staying out of the decisions that all people make, including the idiots who blew up the world trade center. That is the point! He lets us do what we want on earth and look what happens.There is no mystery there, he didn't encourage or discourage it. He stayed out of it and he continues to do so UNLESS you WANT him in your life at which point he still doesn't intervene with the people who commit evil.

[B. W.]

rmil65

Please note:

In Leviticus chapter 26 is full of conditions brought out by the phrase — 'If you do…if you will not listen.' This indicates that God indeed granted humanity with the ability to make their-own decisions and choices. This proves God just. He remains in control because he is judges with equity even when he already foreknows what our choices will be before we ever were born; He still lets us make them. The choice remains ours as well as the consequence. Who can find fault with God?
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[rmil65]

Not at all. If you're not a believer now...does God have a gun to your head to kill you if you don't believe/love Him? No...you're living and are afforded to live out your life on earth to the happiest YOU are able to make of it even though you don't believe. Your analogy hardly even comes close. There's a HUGE difference between an ultimatum and consequences.

Let me make my position clear. I am not a believer and do not think god exists. The analogy is attempting to point out one of the basic flaws in Christian philosophy. For me there is no god/gunman therefore there is no choice required. But for a believer there is, and if he/she does not accept-jesus-christ-as-their-personal-saviour then the CONSEQUENCE of that ULTIMATUM is eternal damnation. What kind of a vain attention seeking god is this anyway? Apparently he created human beings because he wanted them to worship him and to have a relationship with him and yet

He remains in control because he is judges with equity even when he already foreknows what our choices will be before we ever were born; He still lets us make them.

It's like telling your child at his birthday party pass-the-parcel game "don't worry son, I know you're gonna win!" Takes the fun out of it surely?

Belief in Creation hardly does away with the BBT. Or is that news to you?

This certainly is news to me. I suppose it depends on which christians you talk to, and which bits of the book they decide to take literally. Funny isn't it- one book and so many interpretations.

Regardless if God exists or not (and my belief is that He does) religion would/does exist. If it is that there is no God NOW, then religion has/does exist, so your argument is flawed. It is by this same nature that you mention that makes a thinking creature ask questions and from questions stems ultimately in a belief of something higher, be it a diety or aliens from other planets.

I don't see the logic of belief stemming from questions. When I pose a question I expect an answer or another question. If there is something I don't understand or can't comprehend I don't automatically opt for the existence of a deity (or aliens) to explain it. Yes you are right in that mankind has always had a propensity towards religion, but it is always accompanied by belief in some kind of deity or deities. Has there ever been a religion without one? Or are you saying that religion exists, so god must exist?!

You state that we only have two choices, one of which is choosing eternal damnation. You kind of make your own noose there with your own argument because essentially you are saying "What person would choose otherwise?' But you your self have chosen otherwise?? So that argument doesn't really make sense.

I refer to my point above. I do not believe in god therefore there is no choice to be made. But for those that do believe, choosing not to follow up that belief has a dire consequence. The Godfather is making you an offer you can't refuse!

If we had proof of God, we wouldn't have faith

So Jesus and his miracles were just a bit of fun?

if we had proof of God, we wouldn't have our own personality or integrity.

Sorry, got integrity and personality in spades thanks, and honesty with myself too, ever since I gave up the intellectual mind games inherent in religion that I see all over this site.

The 9/11 occasion. You are condradicting your own argument. You are saying God gave us free will, according to Christians, but here you say he reduced the number of fatalities. Which is it you think we believe, free will or God's hand controlling the outcomes?
If God gave us free will, which is what Christians beleive, he would be staying out of the decisions that all people make, including the idiots who blew up the world trade center. That is the point! He lets us do what we want on earth and look what happens.There is no mystery there, he didn't encourage or discourage it. He stayed out of it and he continues to do so UNLESS you WANT him in your life at which point he still doesn't intervene with the people who commit evil.

I am simply quoting from your site, which you have just completely contradicted. And here's another -
"all the "bad" things of this world are absolutely required for life to exist at all. In fact, most of this "evil" provides us with much more pleasure than pain.

Rich Deem'
Pleasure? Hello?! I am not demanding a perfect world, and I am perfectly happy to accept that natural 'nasties' like disease/famine as a result of over-population can be seen as natures own way of controlling populations and maintaining the ecological cycle. But put an intelligent designer/loving god into the equation and all sorts of anomalies arise. I have never heard a satisfactory answer to the needless suffering issue (9/11, starving kids, natural disasters, cancer, take your pick) - and 'answers' to prayer aswell. If it happens it's our fault, if it doesn't happen it's by god's good will. God's a winner every time!

[Canuckster1127]

My three points are all from the 'Answers for atheists' section.

How about a direct reference to the three points you're claiming so I can examine your claims and the original statements in context?

Assuming of course, you're here to discuss things and wish to understand as well as to be understood.

If not, please read the Discussion Guidelines and Board Purpose statements.

regards,

bart

[rmil65]

1. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... ering.html paragraph entitled 'Why two creations instead of one?'

2. same page, reference point 13 at the bottom of the page

3. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... trade.html 'Where was God During the World Trade Center Attack?
The goodness of the work of God in this atrocity' by Rich Deem
I find even the title of this piece utterly repellant.

You may wonder why I am bothering posting on this forum. After all, I don't believe in god, you do, let's just agree to differ. Fine, no problem. Then I come across a piece of writing such as the one quoted above, and I cannot leave these ludicrous and offensive views unchallenged.

[BavarianWheels]

Let me make my position clear. I am not a believer and do not think god exists.

This was a shocker!

Not at all. If you're not a believer now...does God have a gun to your head to kill you if you don't believe/love Him? No...you're living and are afforded to live out your life on earth to the happiest YOU are able to make of it even though you don't believe. Your analogy hardly even comes close. There's a HUGE difference between an ultimatum and consequences.

Let me make my position clear. I am not a believer and do not think god exists.

Exactly my point. You have just thrown out half of your OWN argument because religion does exist and yet without a god or diety. You also have faith in your belief, of which you have no absolute proof. So which faith is right? Yours?

The analogy is attempting to point out one of the basic flaws in Christian philosophy.

The real flaw is in your analogy for God doesn't instantly kill those that don't believe in Christ for salvation, instead, as the Bible mentions, the rain falls both on the wicked and the righteous. This means you...YOU get to live as you wish...as you choose. You get to live happily if you wish. You are afforded the right to question and with no immediate consequence. The consequence and ultimatum is not brought up until the end of time...as YOU know it. For all intents and purposes, you'll already be dead anyway.

For me there is no god/gunman therefore there is no choice required. But for a believer there is,

...and again you argue on top of your own ignorance since the BELIEVER has already made a decision. If the believer made the decision then he/she is a believer. If one hasn't accepted then life moves on with no immediate consequences. There are no lightning bolts that split the heavens and down onto the unbeliever(s)...and if it did, then belief would no longer be of love, but of fear.

and if he/she does not accept-jesus-christ-as-their-personal-saviour then the CONSEQUENCE of that ULTIMATUM is eternal damnation.

Interesting you would use this argument in your belief that there is no god. If you're right, then there is no damnation at all, but simply non-existence after death.

What kind of a vain attention seeking god is this anyway?

EXACTLY right...it's almost like you've read the Bible. God openly admits He's a jealous God.

Apparently he created human beings because he wanted them to worship him and to have a relationship with him and yet

...and yet...and yet what? You have chosen a non-relationship...and look...you're still alive and living. Yet what?

Belief in Creation hardly does away with the BBT. Or is that news to you?

This certainly is news to me. I suppose it depends on which christians you talk to, and which bits of the book they decide to take literally. Funny isn't it- one book and so many interpretations.

Not really. God apparently has left just enough room for doubt that you can "intelligently" not choose Him, and just enough evidence that we could choose Him in FAITH. Faith in the unseen, and be given a reward for holding true to that faith.

It's like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Everyone knows it's a myth because no one has ever found the pot OR the end of the rainbow. Let's pretend a child has the tenacity to go and look...AND FINDS both! What is that joy in comparison to the joy if there was a pot at the end of every rainbow? If everyone has a pot, then the pot is no longer a reward, but an expectation. An everyday occurance that is not even news worthy.

Regardless if God exists or not (and my belief is that He does) religion would/does exist. If it is that there is no God NOW, then religion has/does exist, so your argument is flawed. It is by this same nature that you mention that makes a thinking creature ask questions and from questions stems ultimately in a belief of something higher, be it a diety or aliens from other planets.

I don't see the logic of belief stemming from questions. When I pose a question I expect an answer or another question.

And isn't this exactly what you get? Why are you making argument here if it is as you say it is? You've asked questions and have come to believe there is no god. How is it you don't see the logic in this if it is EXACTLY how you've come to your own conclusion(s) about life? When you've asked yourself the question, "Is there a God?"...what was your conclusion? Did your conclusion not come from a question(s)? This is your logic??

If there is something I don't understand or can't comprehend I don't automatically opt for the existence of a deity (or aliens) to explain it.

Neither do we (Christians) for we also love the sciences in what God has done as there is an explanation for everything, just we haven't found all the answers, nor will we until ALL has been revealed.

Yes you are right in that mankind has always had a propensity towards religion, but it is always accompanied by belief in some kind of deity or deities.

Thank you. Since your faith is against there being a god, you have just proven your assumptions wrong.

Has there ever been a religion without one? Or are you saying that religion exists, so god must exist?!

Not at all...if there is no god, then half your argument just vanished because religion does exist and people do believe there is a diety of some sorts. I'm not saying at all that since religion exists, there MUST be a god. What I'm saying is that if there is no god, then it is natural that humans seek a higher power normally. THAT is a fact! You prove it simply by acknowledging there are religions and people believe in a god(s). (repeating myself)
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[robyn hill]

you say
So Jesus and his miracles were just a bit of fun?

my response,
Uh yeah, I'll give you Jesus and his miracles were a bit of fun and more but obviously faith is still in question or we wouldn't be having this convo.


you say

I am simply quoting from your site,

my response,

If you quote from this site, please include the exact quote you are quoting so there is a reference point, otherwise there is no way to logically have this conversation. You can send me the whole article but then I am only inferring what I think you are talking about.


you say

Sorry, got integrity and personality in spades thanks, and honesty with myself too, ever since I gave up the intellectual mind games inherent in religion that I see all over this site.

If you read what I wrote I am not saying you can't have integrity witout God, I am saying if we had absolute proof of God we would not have testable integrity as we would probably act as puppets. So your comment is actually helping me make my point.

[zoegirl]

Not at all. If you're not a believer now...does God have a gun to your head to kill you if you don't believe/love Him? No...you're living and are afforded to live out your life on earth to the happiest YOU are able to make of it even though you don't believe. Your analogy hardly even comes close. There's a HUGE difference between an ultimatum and consequences.

Let me make my position clear. I am not a believer and do not think god exists. The analogy is attempting to point out one of the basic flaws in Christian philosophy. For me there is no god/gunman therefore there is no choice required. But for a believer there is, and if he/she does not accept-jesus-christ-as-their-personal-saviour then the CONSEQUENCE of that ULTIMATUM is eternal damnation. What kind of a vain attention seeking god is this anyway? Apparently he created human beings because he wanted them to worship him and to have a relationship with him and yet

yes, he created humans to have a relationship with him but we were the ones who rebelled against Him.

Belief in Creation hardly does away with the BBT. Or is that news to you?

This certainly is news to me. I suppose it depends on which christians you talk to, and which bits of the book they decide to take literally. Funny isn't it- one book and so many interpretations.

Surely, rmil65, you can have the intellectual integrity to admit that in any academic study there are differences of opinions.

Surely you can avoid rather silly statements that at the surface seem oh-so-convincing (gee, we've *never* heard anybody make this argument, and that's stretching it to call this an argument! _ )

Yet again, an atheist comes over trotting out tired and stale bullet points without really examining the very faith he supposedly attacks. Yes, indeed, you are very convincing rmil65.

The very fact that this is news to you means that you haven't studied Christianity at all and certainly have no solid foundation to criticize the BIble as a body of literature or as a historical document. Which is rather laughable since you come barreling over to our site claiming to destroy our arguments.

Sorry, got integrity and personality in spades thanks, and honesty with myself too, ever since I gave up the intellectual mind games inherent in religion that I see all over this site.

Is this the same intellectual integrity that makes you form decisions to reject a faith in which you have essentially shown yourself to be ignorant? The very fact that you don't know what some Christians believe about science and willingly embrace you own ideas about Christian beliefs speaks volumes about your willingness to investigate and preconceived notions.

Are these the same intellectual mind games that allow you to use rather silly statements and arguments such as rejecting an entire wordlview simply becuase there are disagreements over some parts of the text?!?!?

Really, with logic like this, one can choose to reject the entire model of evolution simply because evolutionists have disagreements about some of the mechanisms....

If God gave us free will, which is what Christians beleive, he would be staying out of the decisions that all people make, including the idiots who blew up the world trade center. That is the point! He lets us do what we want on earth and look what happens.There is no mystery there, he didn't encourage or discourage it. He stayed out of it and he continues to do so UNLESS you WANT him in your life at which point he still doesn't intervene with the people who commit evil I am simply quoting from your site, which you have just completely contradicted. And here's another -
"all the "bad" things of this world are absolutely required for life to exist at all. In fact, most of this "evil" provides us with much more pleasure than pain.

Rich Deem
Pleasure? Hello?! I am not demanding a perfect world, and I am perfectly happy to accept that natural 'nasties' like disease/famine as a result of over-population can be seen as natures own way of controlling populations and maintaining the ecological cycle. But put an intelligent designer/loving god into the equation and all sorts of anomalies arise. I have never heard a satisfactory answer to the needless suffering issue (9/11, starving kids, natural disasters, cancer, take your pick) - and 'answers' to prayer aswell. If it happens it's our fault, if it doesn't happen it's by god's good will. God's a winner every time!

Just out of curiosity, what books/authors have you studied on this particular topic of the presence of evil/pain. Be honest here. Since you are demanding a Christian response, what Christian sources have you read? What CHristian philosophers?

I can give you quite a few. C.S.Lewis, Philip Yancy, Spurgeon, Piper, Max Lucado, and countless others. But don't come here claiming to want to know and then shrug off good resources that can answer your questions. From the quality of your arguments, you really haven't taken the time to study.

But you can't have it both ways....if God is a God that allows us to make free choices, then we must accept that there will be evil in this world. Humans will commit evil atrocities. We have rebelled and demand our own way. If God is a God of justice, then that justice demands that we are separated form Him.

If you want to remove choice, then you are demanding a world where we are essentially robots. Then, of course, everyone would be clamoring for God to get off our backs.

[rmil65]

Bavarian wheels, I think you are misunderstanding my view point. The first question I posed are hypothetical. They are the questions I think that you and all Christians should be asking yourselves, and are questions I asked myself a long time ago. Of course if I was asking these questions from the stand point from a non-believer (which I am) they are self-defeating and don't make sense, and are pointless. Sorry I did not make this clear. Imagine them coming from an agnostic about to sign up if that helps.

Atheism is not a faith. Look it up in the dictionary - the definition is non-belief in the existence of a deity, the absense of belief not a substitute. Similar principle to the words apolitical, asexual, or atypical. But your question "which faith is right" is a good one. Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism? They can't all be right can they, but that's the whole point of faith - you can't be wrong, even if there is no proof. I could tell you that I completely believe in a golden teapot orbiting Saturn and there's no way you can persuade me this is nonsense because I have faith. But in order to swallow all the inconsistencies in the bible and believe I am putting my faith in the right thing, I'm gonna some proof, some facts.

Ok, Robyn Hill

If you quote from this site, please include the exact quote you are quoting so there is a reference point, otherwise there is no way to logically have this conversation. You can send me the whole article but then I am only inferring what I think you are talking about.

No! Don't be lazy, my points are derived from reading whole paragraphs not just sound-bites, and I would expect your replies to be the same.If you look to where I directed they are not huge sections.

Zoegirl
Whoa! where's all the hostility coming from? According to the website atheists are welcome to this site (and, I presume this discussion forum) Besides, win me over and you'll have bagged another lost soul.

Surely, rmil65, you can have the intellectual integrity to admit that in any academic study there are differences of opinions.

Who said this is an academic study? According to christians this is the word of god we're talking about. Will someone please point out the bits to be taken literally and which are open to interpretation. Virgin birth? Rising from the dead? Water into wine? Please, I know you may regarde these as just more tired and stale points but humour me, I'm new here. I was brought up as an evangelical Christian, gave it up in my late teens. I know the bible pretty well, but I cannot find any reference to the BBT in Genesis. I could point out the absence of dinosaurs, but I can see you reaching for that eye-rolling smilie again, and digging out the bible quotes about dragons etc. Lets save that for another post, my eyes are beginning to hurt.
As for Christian philosophers isn't that a contradiction in terms? Surely Christianity is foundered on the bible, requiring faith to believe it. I don't think I have to read an exhaustive account of the mating habits of unicorns in order to verify that I don't believe in unicorns.

I notice no-one has responded about the 9/11 article written by Richard Deem. Where are you Richard? Next time you're on the line to god, ask him why, if he 'might' have made the plane to hit the Pentagon where there was repair work underway, could he not have steered the other two so they just missed the towers, and miraculously saved a few more thousand lives?

[robyn hill]

You said,
No! Don't be lazy, my points are derived from reading whole paragraphs not just sound-bites, and I would expect your replies to be the same.If you look to where I directed they are not huge sections.

I say,

So you want me to try and guess what you are talking about ? That doesn't even make sense. Don't call em quotes then smarty pants.
Are you sure its not a matter of you can't find the quotes you are referring to?