Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
Canuckster1127 wrote:I don't agree with everything Ken Miller says but I don't need to spew this type of ugly judgment.
Since when is right judgment, ugly judgment? If I've said something that is wrong please tell me. Ken Miller is a very odd personality. I'm not judging him personally, in his actions he is a person who is locked arm in arm with the likes of Eugenie Scott and Richard Dawkins all week long howling at people who even mention intelligent design but then goes and raises his hands Sunday morning in a church, some red flags should go up for any Bible believing Christian. If Paul can cast righteous judgment based on the teachings of people, should we do any less when we are guarding our doctrine from teachings that eat like a cancer?
2 Tim 4:14-15 wrote:
14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
If I said something that sounded judgmental, it was always backed up with scripture and evidence.
Ken Miller has greatly withstood the Word of God. I'm sorry you would find him better company then a brother in Christ.
Your past several posts are rapidly deteriorating in tone and increasingly showing disrespect to those who disagree with you, including sarcasm and personal attacks.
Respectful disagreement is welcome. Please refer to the Board Purpose and discussion guidelines if you have any questions.
Thank you,
Bart
You guys have been dodging my questions and bylos has been making false accusations that I demonstrated more than once. What am I supposed to say? I apologized for misrepresenting Hugh Ross' position and I'm sorry that I'm getting frustrated but I guess that's what will happen when people refuse evidence to claim there is none.
Canuckster1127 wrote:I don't agree with everything Ken Miller says but I don't need to spew this type of ugly judgment.
Since when is right judgment, ugly judgment? If I've said something that is wrong please tell me. Ken Miller is a very odd personality. I'm not judging him personally, in his actions he is a person who is locked arm in arm with the likes of Eugenie Scott and Richard Dawkins all week long howling at people who even mention intelligent design but then goes and raises his hands Sunday morning in a church, some red flags should go up for any Bible believing Christian. If Paul can cast righteous judgment based on the teachings of people, should we do any less when we are guarding our doctrine from teachings that eat like a cancer?
2 Tim 4:14-15 wrote:
14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
If I said something that sounded judgmental, it was always backed up with scripture and evidence.
Ken Miller has greatly withstood the Word of God. I'm sorry you would find him better company then a brother in Christ.
I consider Ken Miller a brother in Christ (which apparently you don't). Paul left judgment to God in this case. It's nice of you to offer to pick it up for Him, but I'll leave the judgment of whether a person is brother in Christ to God, and challenge yours when it's given without apology.
Satan used scripture to back up and promote his agenda as well. The use of Scripture in this manner does not impress me.
I reiterate, I'd prefer to spend time in the company of Ken MIller, despite our misunderstandings than to spend time with those who think and operate in the manner I'm seeing you demonstrate.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
Adam_777 wrote:I consider Ken Miller a brother in Christ (which apparently you don't). Paul left judgment to God in this case. It's nice of you to offer to pick it up for Him, but I'll leave the judgment of whether a person is brother in Christ to God, and challenge yours when it's given without apology.
You misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm not judging Ken Miller's salvation and I never would. I pray that he is saved from his sin by grace through faith the same as I am. I'm judging his teachings, discerning his behavior and so should you. You had no problem trying to inspect my fruit so we are really in agreement it's just that you agree with what I'm denouncing as unbiblical so you find it offensive. I can understand that but don't mistake that, for me exercising the judgment that Jesus reserves for himself.
You guys have been dodging my questions and bylos has been making false accusations that I demonstrated more than once. What am I supposed to say? I apologized for misrepresenting Hugh Ross' position and I'm sorry that I'm getting frustrated but I guess that's what will happen when people refuse evidence to claim there is none.
Was animal blood shed suffering and disease very good before the fall? This should be a straight yes or no answer.
No we haven't been dodging your questions Adam. We've simply chosen not to play by your rules, particularly those rules that consist of rhetorical wordplay and the use of things like what you've done here which is another false dilemma.
The use of the evaluations "good" and "very good" tie into the Hebrew concept of completeness which is differnt than the Greek or Western Ideal and refers primarily to the idea of maturity and completeness, not the idea of perfection such as Plato's Allegory of the Cave.
So yes, the presence of carnivores and the cycle of physical life in the Garden prior to the fall, being evaluated as good and very good are just fine with me.
Here's an article from the main page if you'd like to consider more about it.
I expect you'll disagree. That's fine and you're welcome to disagree. Kindly do so addressing the points of my post and the referenced articles.
bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
You forgot about Is. 65:20. Your "restored creation" will still have human death. In Isaiah 65:25 and 11:6-8 the animals are symbolic of the nations and people in Is. 11:9-10 and 65:19-24. For examples of this symbolism see:
Is. 30:6-9; 46:11; 56:9-12
Jere. 5:5-6, 10-11, 15-17; 12:7-12; 51:37-40
Eze. 22:27
Zeph. 3:3
Micah 4:3
I can't picture anything but a retarded and wasteful god that needs millions and billions of years and millions and billions of dead and dying creatures to get to the point where he can finally say things are very good.
For your sake be careful. If you are wrong you are blaspheming the LORD.
Is God lying when there are stars that we see out there that are actual nova that we can't see yet?
No. We are directly witnessing the past. We know this to be a fact. Light takes time to reach us.
There are ways to test the idea of light created in transit. The spectral lines (from the light) of stars and galaxies are broadened and their continuum radiation reddened in direct prportion to the distance the light has traveled. Since this matches our observations, the light must have come all the way from the objects themselves.
Even the Big Bang theory is calculated with a light speed "cheat" so what's the problem?
Adam_777 wrote:I consider Ken Miller a brother in Christ (which apparently you don't). Paul left judgment to God in this case. It's nice of you to offer to pick it up for Him, but I'll leave the judgment of whether a person is brother in Christ to God, and challenge yours when it's given without apology.
You misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm not judging Ken Miller's salvation and I never would. I pray that he is saved from his sin by grace through faith the same as I am. I'm judging his teachings, discerning his behavior and so should you. You had no problem trying to inspect my fruit so we are really in agreement it's just that you agree with what I'm denouncing as unbiblical so you find it offensive. I can understand that but don't mistake that, for me exercising the judgment that Jesus reserves for himself.
Adam,
You compared yourself to Ken Miller and referred to my chosing to spend time with him as opposed to you by referring to yourself as "a brother in Christ" clearly implying that you do not see Ken Miller as the same.
I try very hard to be a patient and understanding person, and deserved or not, I have enough history on this board to back that up.
Please don't assume that means that I am stupid or unable to discern when someone is peeing on my shoes and then attempting to tell me that it is raining.
For someone who has pushed and challenged other to retract statments or apologize to the level you have here, show a little backbone and take responsibility for your words and hold yourself to your own standards and don't attempt to try and push something like this past me, because, without anger or attempting to manipulate the conversation, I assure you I will call you on it.
blessings,
bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
Adam_777 wrote:Was animal blood shed suffering and disease very good before the fall? This should be a straight yes or no answer.
If yes, why are we told there will be none in the resurrection?
I answered your question and the material I provided you addresses these issues. I'm wondering how carefully you examined it in the 4 minutes that ellapsed between my posting it and your responding.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
Canuckster1127 wrote:You compared yourself to Ken Miller and referred to my chosing to spend time with him as opposed to you by referring to yourself as "a brother in Christ" clearly implying that you do not see Ken Miller as the same.
Your right I don't consider Ken Miller a brother in Christ but that is based on his own profession. That does not mean I've condemned him. He has condemned himself. However, I do still pray that he is saved by grace through faith. Do you see why the Apostles could have such scorching words for people? They were detecting fruit not condemning them to Hell. I would certainly witness to Ken Miller out of love not out of judgment if I had a chance to talk to him.
I'm going to take a break. I'm just glad some information is available to people here that does show that the YEC view has much more to support it then is usually washed over here. I will let all of you get back to your regularly scheduled program.
I'm sorry I was a pain. I just pray the Lord Jesus gives all of us the courage to repent and grow as He desires to see us be fruitful in witnessing to a lost and fallen world. Blessings.
Was animal blood shed suffering and disease very good before the fall? This should be a straight yes or no answer.
Yes or No
If yes, why are we told there will be none in the resurrection?
If no, what was God talking about in Genesis?
Animal death is good. Otherwise the planet would be overrun.
Stay in context. Genesis one speaks of good and very good in relation to earth's initial conditions found in Gen. 1:2. Just look. Each day that is called good is a day in which one of these conditions was changed. Day two did not change a condition and is not called good. This had nothing to do with death, suffering or sin.
God is responsible for animals eating animals and this is called good (Ps. 104:21, 27-28; Ps. 147:9; Job 38:39-41; Luke 12:24; Matt. 6:26)
Radiation from the environment causes mutations, etc.
Canuckster1127 wrote:You compared yourself to Ken Miller and referred to my chosing to spend time with him as opposed to you by referring to yourself as "a brother in Christ" clearly implying that you do not see Ken Miller as the same.
Your right I don't consider Ken Miller a brother in Christ but that is based on his own profession. That does not mean I've condemned him. He has condemned himself. However, I do still pray that he is saved by grace through faith. Do you see why the Apostles could have such scorching words for people? They were detecting fruit not condemning them to Hell. I would certainly witness to Ken Miller out of love not out of judgment if I had a chance to talk to him.
I'm going to take a break. I'm just glad some information is available to people here that does show that the YEC view has much more to support it then is usually washed over here. I will let all of you get back to your regularly scheduled program.
I'm sorry I was a pain. I just pray the Lord Jesus gives all of us the courage to repent and grow as He desires to see us be fruitful in witnessing to a lost and fallen world. Blessings.
A break would probably be a good idea. You're welcome to post here.
If you have a source where Ken Miller professes not to be a Christian then you're welcome to post it here. If not all you've done is repeat the claim and then continued to condemn him, despite your attempts to claim otherwise and I'm continuing to call you on it.
I find it particularly interesting that this episode arose after your claiming earlier in this thread that YEC adherents don't claim that OEC adherants are heretics. It would appear that there's a gap between your claim (for which you asked for an apology I might add of someone making that observation) and your practice and the latest posts. Those latter actions are speaking louder than the words offered earlier, to my observation.
In any event, you're not the first YEC proponent to come on this board spoiling for a fight and dancing around many issues. When you wish to come back, I'd suggest you pick one issue and stick with it and keep on topic and all involved will likely find the conversation to be more satisfying.
blessings,
bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
Adam_777 wrote:Anyone who claims to be a Christian must be believed to be a Christian.
Bart,
What you said above...
oh...never mind... I've had my words twisted enough for a couple of days. bye.
So you determine that he's not a Christian and then claim you're not judging him. You can't have it both ways Adam.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
