Enforced abortion/euthanasia

[Keefy]

Please don't read if you are easily upset. I have my cold, rational head on at the moment. I'm quite an emotional guy normally!

I've been considering what would happen if society continued down its current path of abortion and euthanasia. Firstly, accepting abortion (being pro-chioce) means that you assert the view that unborn life is of less intrinisc value than life that has already been born. Essentially, you agree that it is OK to kill an unborn child, because the percieved disruption/distress it would cause if born outweighs the value of its life. Supporting euthanasia means that you can agree, at some level, that the life of someone with a terminal illness (or debilitating disease) is no longer of worth or is no longer worth sustaining. Therefore we have both ends of the spectrum covered - the very beginnings of life, and the very end.

A natural extension of this evil way of thinking is to broaden its scope. Our governments believe in abortion/euthanasia (although I realise that not many countries actively support euthanasia at this time) therefore they support the thinking that some lives are worth more than others. What then consitutes a person's worth? When does someone become 'worthless'? It is perceivable that in the future abortion and/or euthanasia could become mandatory in cases where the government believes that this would be for the 'greater good'. Someone diagnosed with a certain disease or a child born with a certain disability could become 'worthless' and therefore the 'moral' thing to do would be to end their suffering. I realise that this is worse case scenario - but it is a very real and potential conclusion of our governments' current thinking.

I am coming to understand that I cannot disagree with abortion whilst also believing that it can be OK in certain circumstances (e.g. rape), nor can I believe that euthanasia can ever be an option. To do so is to state that I believe that certain lives are worth less than others.

[waynepii]

As far as euthanasia is concerned, it isn't when "someone becomes worthless", it is when someone's [quality of] life becomes worthless. If you have never watched a loved one die a slow, horrible death from a terminal illness (in my mother's case, metastasized colon cancer), believe me it changes one's perspective. I am (and always have been) anti-death penalty, consider abortion a tragedy to be avoided whenever possible (but I think it should be available in the first trimester), but am now absolutely pro-assisted suicide (with appropriate safeguards and oversight). Nobody should HAVE to endure months and months of having their insides torn apart with no hope of recovery.

[Harry12345]

As far as euthanasia is concerned, it isn't when "someone becomes worthless", it is when someone's [quality of] life becomes worthless. If you have never watched a loved one die a slow, horrible death from a terminal illness (in my mother's case, metastasized colon cancer), believe me it changes one's perspective. I am (and always have been) anti-death penalty, consider abortion a tragedy to be avoided whenever possible (but I think it should be available in the first trimester), but am now absolutely pro-assisted suicide (with appropriate safeguards and oversight). Nobody should HAVE to endure months and months of having their insides torn apart with no hope of recovery.

Agree completely, although I do not agree with "active" Euthanasia, only "passive" euthanasia.

[Keefy]

I don't think the spirit of my original post was in line with the board rules, so I won't be adding to the discussion.

[BavarianWheels]

I've been considering what would happen if society continued down its current path of abortion and euthanasia. Firstly, accepting abortion (being pro-chioce) means that you assert the view that unborn life is of less intrinisc value than life that has already been born. Essentially, you agree that it is OK to kill an unborn child,

Hardly truth. Being pro-choice (PC) simply means believing that every human has the RIGHT to do as they please. God Himself gives us this liberty, however taking the life of an unborn child does not go without consequences (as any sin). God is "PC". PC does not mean He is happy when an abortion takes place. And, who's to say that the life of one that is unborn is more or less precious than that of the born? Isn't ALL life precious? What makes the life of the unborn more so? Just because it is helpless and has no choice? When was the last time a person was murdered/killed by their own choice?
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[zoegirl]

Why don't you think it is in the board rules?

There are two issues that are very important, one is stopping treatment and the other is deliberate cause of death. I can completely understand deciding to refuse any more chemo, undergo hospice care, and refusal of feeding tube, etc. I have also seen my grandparents death and understand that decision.

I think, however, we are sliding down an awful slope when we switch to assisted suicide. Who? When? At what point?

More and more I am seeing the genius of George Orwell's book 1984. At what point are we going to see the government control these issues? We already are seeing judges decide feeding tube issues. Currently there is still a moral outrage over assisted suicide. But when will this become complacency?

What it seems like is that society is becoming more and more comfortable with euthanasia because we have somehow developed this idea that becase we are lessening the severity of dying, this somehow makes death less horrifying. Death will always be awful. It's our condition as humans under sin.

It's death itself that should always grieve us, not just the misery of dying.

Bavarian, IF abortion is the taking of human life, it should be outlawed. People who use the argument "Well, I am pro-choice, but I don't like abortions (and I wouldn't have one myself)" are not thinking well, using good arguments. IF abortion is killing a human life, essentially they are sayignt that they are okay with somebody else killing a human. I find the argument, at the least, absurd, and, at the worst, atrocious. It's poor thinking like this that has led us down the political correctness culture. "Well, I wouldn't do such and such, but we should let others do so". Abortion is killing a human life.

And to even say that God is pro-choice?! That is about as foolish a statement as I have ver heard. God may allow murders to happen. That does NOT allow us to abdigate our respoensibility as a nation that examines what SHOULD and SHOULD NOT happen to influence our laws. Just because God does not reach down and stop every murder from happening does not allow us to do the same!!

[cslewislover]

I don't think the spirit of my original post was in line with the board rules, so I won't be adding to the discussion.

Why do you think that?

(Lol. Our posts went up at the same time.)

[BavarianWheels]

Bavarian, IF abortion is the taking of human life, it should be outlawed.

Why? Just because it's ugly and fast? Should we then outlaw EVERYTHING that brings about death? My argument against anti-abortionists isn't that abortion is right, rather that in a secular society...that being a society like ours here in the U.S. where God is being pushed out, abortion should be left as PC OR as how the nation votes it to be!

People who use the argument "Well, I am pro-choice, but I don't like abortions (and I wouldn't have one myself)" are not thinking well, using good arguments.

That's ok for you to think, I just happen to think different than you.

IF abortion is killing a human life, essentially they are sayignt that they are okay with somebody else killing a human.

Don't go assuming my thoughts. I'm not ok with it. I just happen to find it silly argue against what society may want. If society agrees with PC or PL, then the vote of the people will be the law of the land. I'm ok with it either way. If abortion becomes lawful in this land, the law that affords choice doesn't compel me to go and use that freedom.

I find the argument, at the least, absurd, and, at the worst, atrocious. It's poor thinking like this that has led us down the political correctness culture. "Well, I wouldn't do such and such, but we should let others do so". Abortion is killing a human life.

Did I state abortion wasn't killing a human life? There are consequences for it. Short-term and long-term psychological consequences and consequences that only God knows will come as a result.

And to even say that God is pro-choice?! That is about as foolish a statement as I have ver heard. God may allow murders to happen.

Do we not see the silliness in this thinking? First of all, no one is dictating upon you what you MUST do. If abortion is made legal, how does that affect YOU and your beliefs? It doesn't. Your own statement "God may allow murders to happen" simply backfires on you because if anyone can stop this madness, yet doesn't, makes HIM more sick or foolish than me in simply having an opinion on the matter in regard to living in a SECULAR society.

I realize this might sound a bit off, but my angle is this:

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

This simply tells me that if abortion goes the way of PC or PL, then for the moment it is as God intends for His purpose.

That does NOT allow us to abdigate our respoensibility as a nation that examines what SHOULD and SHOULD NOT happen to influence our laws.

And what if the "nation" you speak of speaks as a whole and allows abortion to be of choice? Do we live within a Democracy or Theocracy? If you want a society of Christian values upheld, then which Christian values do you want upheld? Adventist values? Pentacostal values? Benny Hinn values? Mormon values? Methodist values? Which religious establishment?

Just because God does not reach down and stop every murder from happening does not allow us to do the same!!

I agree in a sense, but my opinion is that it is up to EACH parent to teach their child the ways of their convictions.

Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it.

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[Jac3510]

I'm with BW on this, zoe. I think that since God stands back and lets people kill each other--since He is "PC" and allows us choice on the matter--it clearly follows that the gov't should have no say in such matters either. Thus, we should legalize ALL forms of death, ya know, just to be fair. We wouldn't want to be partial to one form of death and not another. In fact, now that I think about it, all law should be removed. We should have the right to rape, murder, steal, and whatever else we want to do, because God doesn't stop us. Just let the natural consequences of sin have its way. Hey, in fact, since God GAVE us choice and encourages us to use it, we should GIVE people the ability to do these things. And, remember, it must be ALL things, because we can't go and ban SOME things that are dangerous. Nope. It has to be all or none.

Therefore, BW, you have convinced me. I am now in favor of government funded murder, raper, torture, theft, etc.

[BavarianWheels]

I'm with BW on this, zoe. I think that since God stands back and lets people kill each other--since He is "PC" and allows us choice on the matter--it clearly follows that the gov't should have no say in such matters either. Thus, we should legalize ALL forms of death, ya know, just to be fair. We wouldn't want to be partial to one form of death and not another. In fact, now that I think about it, all law should be removed. We should have the right to rape, murder, steal, and whatever else we want to do, because God doesn't stop us. Just let the natural consequences of sin have its way. Hey, in fact, since God GAVE us choice and encourages us to use it, we should GIVE people the ability to do these things. And, remember, it must be ALL things, because we can't go and ban SOME things that are dangerous. Nope. It has to be all or none.

Therefore, BW, you have convinced me. I am now in favor of government funded murder, raper, torture, theft, etc.

I'm in favor of government funded murder, rape, torture, theft, just like you. As long as it is voted in as a society, I'll live with it...or move out of the affected/infected area.

I suppose this might be one reason we as Christians are told we are in this world, but shouldn't be OF this world.
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[Jac3510]

I'm in favor of government funded murder, rape, torture, theft, just like you. As long as it is voted in as a society, I'll live with it...or move out of the affected/infected area.

I suppose this might be one reason we as Christians are told we are in this world, but shouldn't be OF this world.
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Forgive me if I have a problem with the fact that you would voluntarily give your money to someone so that they could afford to rape and murder your own children if the majority decided that was ok. Do you really think God would approve? I thought God wanted us to protect the orphans, widows, and other such people. You don't believe God wants us to fight for justice?

[BavarianWheels]

I'm in favor of government funded murder, rape, torture, theft, just like you. As long as it is voted in as a society, I'll live with it...or move out of the affected/infected area.

I suppose this might be one reason we as Christians are told we are in this world, but shouldn't be OF this world.
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Forgive me if I have a problem with the fact that you would voluntarily give your money to someone so that they could afford to rape and murder your own children if the majority decided that was ok. Do you really think God would approve? I thought God wanted us to protect the orphans, widows, and other such people. You don't believe God wants us to fight for justice?

I "voluntarily" give my taxes of which I probably disagree with much of what is done with it. I don't really care...and I'm sorry that offends you to the point of sarcasm. I give to Caesar what is Caesar's...and to God (not as faithfully - to my own shame) what is God's. I trust that God has put into power those He means for me to be under. Had I lived under Hitler, hopefully I would've disagreed and done my best to move from that, but Hitler, while vile and disgusting in his views and actions, apparently served a purpose, both of God and of man. Change history and you change God's will...and He NEVER changes.

I think you seem to forget, and is why I always try and remind *you*, that my argument is purely based on SECULAR society...similar to my acceptance of homosexual marriages. IF SOCIETY agrees to it by a democratic vote...then I support the law, but don't necessarily support it with my own actions.
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[Jac3510]

I understand your argument is for a secular society. What I am saying is that we are also told to defend justice, a command you ignore. And personally, I believe you'd stand by while someone raped your child about as much as I believe it when moral relativists say they don't believe anything is right or wrong. When your daughter came home and was upet and hurt by it, I simply don't believe that you would say, "There, there. That's the will of the people. That's the law. You need to submit to it. Don't gorget your next appointment to be raped again tomorrow at 3 pm. After all, that's God's will." No, I believe you would find for her safety because it is the right thing to do. Because that is what God would have you to do.

I wish you would honestly evaluate what you are saying. You are telling me that if someone put a knife to a childs throat in front of you and proceded to slit its throat, then you would stand by and let it happen if you had the chance to stop it, so long as the government said it was legal. And then you want to blame God for your inaction?

[Keefy]

IF SOCIETY agrees to it by a democratic vote...then I support the law, but don't necessarily support it with my own actions.

Ah, but the bible teaches that we should only follow laws if they obey God's higher law. For instance, Daniel continued to pray to God even when it was made a decree that no-one would be allowed to do so for 30 days. He was thrown to the lions, only to be saved by God. Daniel prospered and God was exalted by his act of disbodience to the ungodly law of the time. Keeping to God's law is higher than man's law.

We should only follow laws and support our government when their laws tally with the bible, otherwise it is our duty to martyr ourselves and refuse to obey the law and yes accept prison or punishment for doing so. Abortion and euthanasia simply do not align with God's law that all life is precious. Jesus died for all of us. The bible tells us not to have favourites and not to treat anyone differently from anyone else - but the opposite is happening in spades at the moment in our socities where certain groups are receiving special treatment or persecution.

[BavarianWheels]

IF SOCIETY agrees to it by a democratic vote...then I support the law, but don't necessarily support it with my own actions.

Ah, but the bible teaches that we should only follow laws if they obey God's higher law.

A law legalizing abortion hardly forces any person into the act of aborting a fetus.

For instance, Daniel continued to pray to God even when it was made a decree that no-one would be allowed to do so for 30 days. He was thrown to the lions, only to be saved by God. Daniel prospered and God was exalted by his act of disbodience to the ungodly law of the time.

See above.

Keeping to God's law is higher than man's law.

Some here would argue with you on this. I wouldn't.

We should only follow laws and support our government when their laws tally with the bible, otherwise it is our duty to martyr ourselves and refuse to obey the law and yes accept prison or punishment for doing so.

Refuse to "obey" abortion? Which law is forcing abortion on anyone? Abortion isn't forced on anyone, but rather is made an option and if society wishes it so, I have no problem in allowing secular society to have its laws. Abortion is not forced on the Christian. It is an act that is done by some haphazardly and by others with much thought and anguish. I would rather that both have safe avenues in whatever freedom they choose...both with consequences, immediate and long-term and/or everlasting.

Abortion and euthanasia simply do not align with God's law that all life is precious. Jesus died for all of us. The bible tells us not to have favourites and not to treat anyone differently from anyone else - but the opposite is happening in spades at the moment in our socities where certain groups are receiving special treatment or persecution.

All life is precious...I agree. However if a secular society votes that abortion is legal, I'm all for it. If it votes abortion is illegal, I'm all for it, yet I disagree. Either way it has no effect on me personally. I would rather there be a safer method to abortion as it WILL happen regardless of its legality. Euthanasia WILL happen regardless of its legality. I would rather a thinking person is allowed to pull his/her own plug if they wish.

I understand your argument is for a secular society. What I am saying is that we are also told to defend justice, a command you ignore.

I don't think you do understand otherwise you'd not argue the point since the legality of abortion has no bearing on the Christian that chooses not to partake of a legal/illegal action that goes against their beliefs. It should have no bearing on a Christian girl brought up to the beliefs of their parents that abhor abortion unless of course it is as a result of rape or health. The Christian girl wouldn't put herself in the situation to become pregnant without wanting to be for the right reason(s)...right?

And personally, I believe you'd stand by while someone raped your child about as much as I believe it when moral relativists say they don't believe anything is right or wrong. When your daughter came home and was upet and hurt by it, I simply don't believe that you would say, "There, there. That's the will of the people. That's the law. You need to submit to it. Don't gorget your next appointment to be raped again tomorrow at 3 pm. After all, that's God's will." No, I believe you would find for her safety because it is the right thing to do. Because that is what God would have you to do.

Rape being legal does not equate to abortion being legal. Again, your analogy doesn't even come close to being relative. You're right, I wouldn't just tell her to wait for her next rape the next day.

I wish you would honestly evaluate what you are saying. You are telling me that if someone put a knife to a childs throat in front of you and proceded to slit its throat, then you would stand by and let it happen if you had the chance to stop it, so long as the government said it was legal. And then you want to blame God for your inaction?

That's what you assume I'm telling you. *I WISH* you'd find a better analogy that fits abortion and the players in abortion.

...a command you ignore.

Aren't you the one that keeps promoting that we are no longer under law? What command are YOU ignoring? You cannot wave the "Do not murder" banner for abortion while cancelling out the whole of the law as "good and righteous" for the Christian.

"You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!"
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