Enforced abortion/euthanasia

[BavarianWheels]

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I'm being told on another thread that we are no longer under law...and if murder is part of that law that we are no longer under, then...??

What does this say about God's thinking on murder, be it abortion or otherwise?
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Amazing. You are now using the logic of someone else to justify murder and try get abortion off the hook.

Never, and this is where you and others are continually misinterpreting me, have I tried to justify murder. It is the simple point that; if God's words from own finger is "old and dead" and is done away with, then this includes murder. Simple.

I'm not for abortion, I'm FOR a better and safer means to a horrible act that will never be done away with. Abortions will always be done regardless if they're illegal. The better fight is not in making it illegal, but in teaching our own children what is right and wrong.
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[Jac3510]

I never said God's rejection of murder was done away with. I said the 10 commandments, as an institution, were done away with. The Mosaic Law was done away with.

If you can't see how "Love your neighbor" forbids murder, then I can't help you.

[BavarianWheels]

I never said God's rejection of murder was done away with. I said the 10 commandments, as an institution, were done away with. The Mosaic Law was done away with.

If you can't see how "Love your neighbor" forbids murder, then I can't help you.

It's not me that keeps saying the Law is "old and dead" and then promotes the keeping of only part. If the law is done away with...and the law includes murder, then you're being "double-minded" for your own convenience.
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[Jac3510]

I never said God's rejection of murder was done away with. I said the 10 commandments, as an institution, were done away with. The Mosaic Law was done away with.

If you can't see how "Love your neighbor" forbids murder, then I can't help you.

It's not me that keeps saying the Law is "old and dead" and then promotes the keeping of only part. If the law is done away with...and the law includes murder, then you're being "double-minded" for your own convenience.
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No reason to have this debate in two places. If you can show me how I can murder someone and love them at the same time, and I insist on not murdering them anyway, I'll concede I'm doubleminded. But murder clearly violates the Law of Christ.

[Kurieuo]

I'm being told on another thread that we are no longer under law...and if murder is part of that law that we are no longer under, then...??

What does this say about God's thinking on murder, be it abortion or otherwise?

Amazing. You are now using the logic of someone else to justify murder and try get abortion off the hook.

Never, and this is where you and others are continually misinterpreting me, have I tried to justify murder. It is the simple point that; if God's words from own finger is "old and dead" and is done away with, then this includes murder. Simple.

Misinterpreting? The questions asked imply something. And that something is obvious. Regardless, this topic is nothing to do with God's law and covenant-based theology which it seems you do not understand.

I'm not for abortion, I'm FOR a better and safer means to a horrible act that will never be done away with. Abortions will always be done regardless if they're illegal. The better fight is not in making it illegal, but in teaching our own children what is right and wrong.

Murder will always be done regardless of whether or not it is legal, as will driving under the influence, domestic violence, child abuse and the like. So lets allow them to be mandated too, and just focus on teaching people what is right and wrong. Right?

[BavarianWheels]

I'm being told on another thread that we are no longer under law...and if murder is part of that law that we are no longer under, then...??

What does this say about God's thinking on murder, be it abortion or otherwise?

Amazing. You are now using the logic of someone else to justify murder and try get abortion off the hook.

Never, and this is where you and others are continually misinterpreting me, have I tried to justify murder. It is the simple point that; if God's words from own finger is "old and dead" and is done away with, then this includes murder. Simple.

Misinterpreting? The questions asked imply something. And that something is obvious. Regardless, this topic is nothing to do with God's law and covenant-based theology which it seems you do not understand.

I understand, however it does play into the theme of abortion...which is murder. Don't you agree?

I'm not for abortion, I'm FOR a better and safer means to a horrible act that will never be done away with. Abortions will always be done regardless if they're illegal. The better fight is not in making it illegal, but in teaching our own children what is right and wrong.

Murder will always be done regardless of whether or not it is legal, as will driving under the influence, domestic violence, child abuse and the like. So lets allow them to be mandated too, and just focus on teaching people what is right and wrong. Right?

They are mandated. People can drive under the influence as long as their BAL is below a certain mandated level. Child abuse is relative...while I was spanked as a youngster, I don't believe I was abused. Not so today.

Yes, I think it's MORE IMPORTANT to educate about the ugliness of abortion and ways to avoid it, rather than to rally the troops for making abortion illegal which does nothing to educate. Regardless...sin remains a choice. Even God's law of 'do not murder' does nothing in this world. It's only good to those that follow it or find good reason in it. Making abortion illegal does nothing to solve the problem.

[Kurieuo]

I'm not for abortion, I'm FOR a better and safer means to a horrible act that will never be done away with. Abortions will always be done regardless if they're illegal. The better fight is not in making it illegal, but in teaching our own children what is right and wrong.

Murder will always be done regardless of whether or not it is legal, as will driving under the influence, domestic violence, child abuse and the like. So lets allow them to be mandated too, and just focus on teaching people what is right and wrong. Right?

They are mandated. People can drive under the influence as long as their BAL is below a certain mandated level. Child abuse is relative...while I was spanked as a youngster, I don't believe I was abused. Not so today.

They are mandated? Ok Bav.

And relativity now? I never knew you thought morality was relative. I guess I should stop now since we can't have a meaningful discussion about the rightness or wrongness of anything. I mean a pedophile parent who molests their children, well such child abuse is mandated. It is just relative. Make sense? Didn't think so.

Yes, I think it's MORE IMPORTANT to educate about the ugliness of abortion and ways to avoid it, rather than to rally the troops for making abortion illegal which does nothing to educate. Regardless...sin remains a choice. Even God's law of 'do not murder' does nothing in this world. It's only good to those that follow it or find good reason in it. Making abortion illegal does nothing to solve the problem.

Does nothing to solve the problem? Well, let us then get rid of every law for they do nothing.

With your way of thinking I wonder why God even bothered giving the 10 commandments. People still broke them so they didn't do anything right? I don't even know how you can agree with SDA teachings given your comments here, for you are straying far from them.

[BavarianWheels]

I'm not for abortion, I'm FOR a better and safer means to a horrible act that will never be done away with. Abortions will always be done regardless if they're illegal. The better fight is not in making it illegal, but in teaching our own children what is right and wrong.

Murder will always be done regardless of whether or not it is legal, as will driving under the influence, domestic violence, child abuse and the like. So lets allow them to be mandated too, and just focus on teaching people what is right and wrong. Right?

They are mandated. People can drive under the influence as long as their BAL is below a certain mandated level. Child abuse is relative...while I was spanked as a youngster, I don't believe I was abused. Not so today.

They are mandated? Ok Bav.

I confused mandated with controlled or manage...make restrictions for...

And relativity now? I never knew you thought morality was relative. I guess I should stop now since we can't have a meaningful discussion about the rightness or wrongness of anything. I mean a pedophile parent who molests their children, well such child abuse is mandated. It is just relative. Make sense? Didn't think so.

What I said, and I thought clearly, was that "child abuse" in regard to spankings, is relative. One thinks belt spankings are abuse while others think a slap on the hand is abuse. I was spanked as a child, but I don't think I was abused.

Yes, I think it's MORE IMPORTANT to educate about the ugliness of abortion and ways to avoid it, rather than to rally the troops for making abortion illegal which does nothing to educate. Regardless...sin remains a choice. Even God's law of 'do not murder' does nothing in this world. It's only good to those that follow it or find good reason in it. Making abortion illegal does nothing to solve the problem.

Does nothing to solve the problem? Well, let us then get rid of every law for they do nothing.

Yes...does nothing to solve the problem. Make it illegal and the practice goes underground. It goes back to how I view abortion as an action of guilt and shame rather than hate. How can the mother hate the child if she doesn't have any reason to hate the child. What she hates is the thought of being pregnant and/or raising a child when she can't. It's nothing to do with hate. (I will concede that some have no regard for life and will not think twice about what they're doing and that CAN be considered a hate)

With your way of thinking I wonder why God even bothered giving the 10 commandments. People still broke them so they didn't do anything right? I don't even know how you can agree with SDA teachings given your comments here, for you are straying far from them.

Better question is why did God create at all? Didn't he know sin would invade His creation?

So if I claim SDA beliefs...I must submit and be confined to ALL SDA beliefs?

I'm an SDA because I find it to be the closest belief system to my own thoughts and ideas. I'm not an SDA because I believe 100% of the system's beliefs.
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[Echoside]

I'm not for abortion, I'm FOR a better and safer means to a horrible act that will never be done away with. Abortions will always be done regardless if they're illegal. The better fight is not in making it illegal, but in teaching our own children what is right and wrong.
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Why cant abortion both be made illegal and children are taught what is right and wrong? Doesnt the concept of something being illegal more easily demonstrate to them what is wrong?

Also I have a few questions. Do you believe that murder and slavery should be "pro choice" as well? Both of those things still take place and they are illegal, so obviously any laws concerning them are useless. If only 1 less person has been murdered or enslaved then they are worth it, same with abortion. Or do you entertain the idea that making abortion illegal will increase the rate at which it happens?

[BavarianWheels]

I'm not for abortion, I'm FOR a better and safer means to a horrible act that will never be done away with. Abortions will always be done regardless if they're illegal. The better fight is not in making it illegal, but in teaching our own children what is right and wrong.
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Why cant abortion both be made illegal and children are taught what is right and wrong? Doesnt the concept of something being illegal more easily demonstrate to them what is wrong?

Also I have a few questions. Do you believe that murder and slavery should be "pro choice" as well? Both of those things still take place and they are illegal, so obviously any laws concerning them are useless. If only 1 less person has been murdered or enslaved then they are worth it, same with abortion. Or do you entertain the idea that making abortion illegal will increase the rate at which it happens?

I'm ok with making abortion illegal...I'm also ok with it being legal of which I would lean more towards since it's not something that will stop because of it being illegal.

No...murder and slavery shouldn't be pro-choice unless the one dying chooses to die or the one to be enslaved chooses to be enslaved. If one less person is murdered because of a law, then it's worth it for THAT person, but useless to those that weren't able to take advantage of the law.

Will abortion increase making it illegal? No. At the same time I don't think it will decrease either.
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[Kurieuo]

I don't know how you define murder, but if murder shouldn't be legal then killing an unborn human life should not be legal either.

[BavarianWheels]

I don't know how you define murder, but if murder shouldn't be legal then killing an unborn human life should not be legal either.

Once again...I don't claim it SHOULD be legal...I claim it's better if abortion is to continue, to regulate it better so that the females that insist on doing this don't have to find a "dark alley", but can openly and in safety have this done. Apparently I'm not the only one with this "crazy" idea.

Because I lean to the PC side, doesn't mean I preach PC to my daughter. I have endeavored to teach her the sanctity of life and that there are consequences to our actions. Unwanted pregnancy is a consequence when sex enters an unmature (and I would say outside of marriage) relationship. I would hope that my daughter is PL and thus wouldn't enter into a situation that would cause her to even ponder the thought.
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[jlay]

Abortions will always be done regardless if they're illegal.

Murders will always be committed even though they are illegal.
Rapes will always happen even though they are illegal.


You are trying to justify your indiffernce with irrational thought.
Should we legalize murder and rape because people break the law to commit murder and rape? I'm betting you would say no. So, if you use that argument with abortion then you are judging hypocritically.
Perhaps we should just regulate rape, and at least provide sanitary enviroments where rapist can take their victims. Sound crazy? Examine yourself. You want to legalize murder and yet you claim to preach "sanctity of life."

How can the mother hate the child if she doesn't have any reason to hate the child.

You are assuming that hate and love are just emotions. Hate would be the absense of love. Greater love have no man than this.........
Self-centerdness is a sin and form of hate. Do you think Jesus gave up His life, that we would throw life away because of inconvenience?? That is hate.

Maybe if you were as zealous about the 6th commandment as you were the 4th.

[BavarianWheels]

Abortions will always be done regardless if they're illegal.

Murders will always be committed even though they are illegal.
Rapes will always happen even though they are illegal.


You are trying to justify your indiffernce with irrational thought.
Should we legalize murder and rape because people break the law to commit murder and rape? I'm betting you would say no. So, if you use that argument with abortion then you are judging hypocritically.
Perhaps we should just regulate rape, and at least provide sanitary enviroments where rapist can take their victims. Sound crazy? Examine yourself. You want to legalize murder and yet you claim to preach "sanctity of life."

How can the mother hate the child if she doesn't have any reason to hate the child.

You are assuming that hate and love are just emotions. Hate would be the absense of love. Greater love have no man than this.........
Self-centerdness is a sin and form of hate. Do you think Jesus gave up His life, that we would throw life away because of inconvenience?? That is hate.

Maybe if you were as zealous about the 6th commandment as you were the 4th.

Hardly hypocritical. My point is not that abortion, made legal, is right. Just because "common" murder is illegal doesn't stop the murders either, but obviously there is a difference in the type of murder since there is all this controversy. A controversy I happen to be at odds with some of you.

Zealous for the 6th commandment? LOL...maybe that's a question for Jac3510 as he is the one that believes God wrote the 10, then nailed them to the cross, then re-establishes them summing them up in one word, LOVE...but that one word does not include the 4th. Christ spent much of His ministry defending the correct keeping of the Sabbath knowing all the while that the Sabbath after His death would be meaningless? Christ wasted His breath and actions. Christ was also wrong, then, when He stated that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath...He should've made it clear that the Sabbath was made for the Jew and not the Christian right? Of course some would love those words to have flowed across Christ's lips. But...they didn't.
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[Kurieuo]

Hardly hypocritical. My point is not that abortion, made legal, is right. Just because "common" murder is illegal doesn't stop the murders either, but obviously there is a difference in the type of murder since there is all this controversy. A controversy I happen to be at odds with some of you.

Nice justification. There was a difference with black slaves once upon a time too. Oh, people still make slaves of other people too.

I don't know how any Christian can get around the simple argument: All human life is intrinsically valuable and ought to be protected. After conception there exists human life. Therefore the unborn human life is valuable and ought to be protected.

Of course, you can choose follow foundations provided by secularised belief systems which logically leads to the self as being the centre of the universe. So if I can get away with taking a human life that might infringe on my own, and such be swept under the carpet with no consequences, so why not? Who is going to know any better. After all, this is the only life I'll live. So f we kill a human life which can't speak up and get away because I don't want it infringing upon my life, then why not?

Bav, I see it apparent that you like to speak a lot of words, Christian works and otherwise, but it seems to me your heart and Christ Himself even is missing. Maybe this is a reflection upon hardships in your own life while growing up, or a lack of understanding to do with God's grace offer through Christ which I see Jac rightly presses even if to an extreme. Who knows? But it is apparent to me nonetheless.