Speaking in tongues.

[jlay]

I'm with you. I am extremely skeptical of tongues as the charismatic churches have displayed. I've never bought into this babbling thing. And this was not an example of that. In fact as I first stated when I brought it up, I don't recall if it was his personal experience, or if he was relaying a testimony of another.

[Jac3510]

In fact as I first stated when I brought it up, I don't recall if it was his personal experience, or if he was relaying a testimony of another.

Which is why I want to see the details. I'm getting a story from you who got a story from a preacher who got a story from someone else . . .

In any case, I don't believe in any form of the gift of tongues today. Isolated miracles? Yes. As a gift? No.

[jlay]

And this account does not present it as such.

And as a Southern Baptist I hold the same position, although perhaps not as striclty as yourself.

I do not box in my faith on arguments that are assumptive. There are scrptural arguments from both sides. Neither can be defintive. There is no scripture that implicitly says, tongues, as witness at Pentecost will never happen again.

It is not a hill to die upon.

[ageofknowledge]

The most spiritual people I have ever known that lived the godliest lives were spirit filled believers that spoke in tongues. The most legalistic people I have met in the church didn't and took the stance they weren't from God. I never had the gift personally and I'm sure there's abuse of it out there. But I'm relating what I have seen. If you have the gift: use it but use it scripturally.

[jlay]

The most spirtual people I have known, are people you wouldn't barely notice in church. One is a reformed hard core drug addict who runs an orphanage in Bolivia, caring for and discipling hundreds of abandoned boys and girls. He has no seminary degree. In fact not even a high school education. He doesn't even belong to a denomination. He would feel totally out of place in most churches in America. There is no mega church for him to show off his gifts in. No TV cameras documenting his "spirituality." No pew warmers to be enamoured with his eloquent words and prayers, and library of knowledge. He has rough hands from hard labor. He weeps when he shares his testimony and remembers the kind of person he was when he was strung out and living in the streets.

Tongues would really come in handy because he doesn't speak english and his wife has to translate for him.

I have friends who are pentecostal, baptists, catholic, methodist, pres., etc. Not once have I been able to equate "spirituality" with speaking in tongues. Not ONCE.

In fact the most spirtitual people are probably people you will never meet and never see. They are consistently doing the thankless work where no one is watching and no one is looking.

[Jac3510]

The Corinthians spoke in tongues. Were they spiritual? Hardly.

Speaking in tongues (if it existed anymore) is/would be no indicator of spirituality.

[jlay]

Jac,

Aren't smilies modern day tongues?

[ageofknowledge]

The most spirtual people I have known, are people you wouldn't barely notice in church. One is a reformed hard core drug addict who runs an orphanage in Bolivia, caring for and discipling hundreds of abandoned boys and girls. He has no seminary degree. In fact not even a high school education. He doesn't even belong to a denomination. He would feel totally out of place in most churches in America. There is no mega church for him to show off his gifts in. No TV cameras documenting his "spirituality." No pew warmers to be enamoured with his eloquent words and prayers, and library of knowledge. He has rough hands from hard labor. He weeps when he shares his testimony and remembers the kind of person he was when he was strung out and living in the streets.

Tongues would really come in handy because he doesn't speak english and his wife has to translate for him.

I have friends who are pentecostal, baptists, catholic, methodist, pres., etc. Not once have I been able to equate "spirituality" with speaking in tongues. Not ONCE.

In fact the most spirtitual people are probably people you will never meet and never see. They are consistently doing the thankless work where no one is watching and no one is looking.

I appreciate your opinion/hypothesis. I've found the most spiritual people to be those that seek to be in God's perfect will for their life. As they do, I've noticed a trend where they often leave the pew/background and begin to effect God's will for their lives. An example would be Sonny who started Victory Outreach whom I've met. Another would be that lady who went to the walled city in China and with only God's help converted it's gangs. On and on and on really I have many examples. I haven't really seen someone grow very close to God and then become quiet and nondiscernable. Interesting you have. I've met a lot of codependent people pleasers that fill the role you describe though. Apparently we have very different experiences.

[B. W.]

Jac,

Aren't smilies modern day tongues?

Could be??


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[Jac3510]

Apparently we have very different experiences.

Wow. I didn't expect it to come out this soon.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the basic problem with all form of charismatic Christianity. Personal experience becomes the means by which the Bible is interpreted and spiritual reality known. In this view, we base our theology on what we experience. When you encounter someone with a different experience, you are forced to write them off. And usually, you pity them . . . how sad . . . they haven't really experienced this amazingness!

Blah. I'll stand on the Word of God, not my fallible experience. Sola Scriptura.

[jlay]

I've found the most spiritual people to be those that seek to be in God's perfect will for their life. As they do, I've noticed a trend where they often leave the pew/background and begin to effect God's will for their lives.

How does that contradict anything I said? I think you have read something into my posts that is simply not there. Let me elaborate.

I haven't really seen someone grow very close to God and then become quiet and nondiscernable. Interesting you have.

Uh, no, I never said that. That is a flat misrepresentation of what I said. My response is to your insinuation that tongues and true spirituality are somehow connected. I said they

are people you wouldn't barely notice in church.

Pardon my poor english, but I was referring to that being the modern "church" institution, not the body of Christ. You would barely notice them, because they don't see "church" as an event on Sunday morning, or a building. Their work is outside the four walls. They become non discenrable because God's work often puts them in places where there is no one to notice. Right now, there is some foriegn missionary trekking through the jungle, invisible to the world. His personality and disposition could be soft spoken, or out spoken.

One's disposition is not an indicator of spirituality. God can and does use loud people and quiet people. Sadly I think many in the church think loudness equates to spirituality. I think there are those who feel they haven't been to a preaching unless they've been yelled at for 45 minutes. Being loud or quite is a personality type, not a spiritual gift. It is a very dangerous and wrong thing to equate spirituality with personality type. If you care to re-read my post, you will see that I did not state such. One of my good friends, stephen, is very loud, very commanding, and a spirit filled person. But he spoke one day, and wanted to make sure that everyone knew that God uses people like him, and God uses quiet people as well, and to not fall prey to the idea that he was "more" spiritual, because he is vocal, and outspoken. I contrast Stephen with another good friend Gregg. Greg is quiet, unassuming and actually has a speech impetiment. Yet, he goes into prisons and spends entire weekends ministering the gospel. God has used each.

Ironically you have chosen a desrciption of spirituality in your latest post (Sonny and the Lady) that is biblically sound and agrees with my example, and doesn't even mention toungues. And yet somehow, you want to use this as an example to disagree. Those are fantastic examples. Remember you said,

The most spiritual people I have ever known that lived the godliest lives were spirit filled believers that spoke in tongues.

Yet the example you site to disagree with me, agrees with me.

Friend, tongues is not a demonstration of one's spirituality. Tongues in not a fruit by which we can measure the quality of the tree.

[ageofknowledge]

Apparently we have very different experiences.

Wow. I didn't expect it to come out this soon.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the basic problem with all form of charismatic Christianity. Personal experience becomes the means by which the Bible is interpreted and spiritual reality known. In this view, we base our theology on what we experience. When you encounter someone with a different experience, you are forced to write them off. And usually, you pity them . . . how sad . . . they haven't really experienced this amazingness!

Blah. I'll stand on the Word of God, not my fallible experience. Sola Scriptura.

And we shall applaud you when you do. For now though I really can't see how asserting that Christians must become wallflowers as they draw near to God has any Biblical foundation. In fact, scripture shows us that the Apostolic Church and the apostles did just the opposite both in deed and in their writings. So it appears you are standing on sand of your own imagination.

[ageofknowledge]

I've found the most spiritual people to be those that seek to be in God's perfect will for their life. As they do, I've noticed a trend where they often leave the pew/background and begin to effect God's will for their lives.

How does that contradict anything I said? I think you have read something into my posts that is simply not there. Let me elaborate.

--> Don't be angry. I simply pointed out what I have observed.

I haven't really seen someone grow very close to God and then become quiet and nondiscernable. Interesting you have.

Uh, no, I never said that. That is a flat misrepresentation of what I said. My response is to your insinuation that tongues and true spirituality are somehow connected. I said they

are people you wouldn't barely notice in church.

--> Again I have observed what I have observed. I did not state my observation constituted a one-to-one relationship without exception nor a law of nature... lol. No silly person, you took it that way because you chose too take it that way and then you chose to begin arguing as if I had said that. You are the one misrepresenting what I said my angry friend. I fully support the scriptural use of tongues.

--> If I wish to state something as a fact, I might say something along the lines that that one can logically deduce that a person exercising a spiritual gift from God would, at the least, have some/have had some form of relationship with Him on any level at some point in the past or present.

Pardon my poor english, but I was referring to that being the modern "church" institution, not the body of Christ. You would barely notice them, because they don't see "church" as an event on Sunday morning, or a building. Their work is outside the four walls. They become non discenrable because God's work often puts them in places where there is no one to notice. Right now, there is some foriegn missionary trekking through the jungle, invisible to the world. His personality and disposition could be soft spoken, or out spoken.

One's disposition is not an indicator of spirituality. God can and does use loud people and quiet people. Sadly I think many in the church think loudness equates to spirituality. I think there are those who feel they haven't been to a preaching unless they've been yelled at for 45 minutes. Being loud or quite is a personality type, not a spiritual gift. It is a very dangerous and wrong thing to equate spirituality with personality type. If you care to re-read my post, you will see that I did not state such. One of my good friends, stephen, is very loud, very commanding, and a spirit filled person. But he spoke one day, and wanted to make sure that everyone knew that God uses people like him, and God uses quiet people as well, and to not fall prey to the idea that he was "more" spiritual, because he is vocal, and outspoken. I contrast Stephen with another good friend Gregg. Greg is quiet, unassuming and actually has a speech impetiment. Yet, he goes into prisons and spends entire weekends ministering the gospel. God has used each.

Ironically you have chosen a desrciption of spirituality in your latest post (Sonny and the Lady) that is biblically sound and agrees with my example, and doesn't even mention toungues. And yet somehow, you want to use this as an example to disagree. Those are fantastic examples. Remember you said,

The most spiritual people I have ever known that lived the godliest lives were spirit filled believers that spoke in tongues.

Yet the example you site to disagree with me, agrees with me.

Friend, tongues is not a demonstration of one's spirituality. Tongues in not a fruit by which we can measure the quality of the tree.

[ageofknowledge]

You guys need to learn to read what people are saying and not jump to conclusions so you can get on with arguing against what you thought they said.

[jlay]

Who said Christians are to be wallflowers? Again, Age, you are accusing Jac and myself of something, when in fact you are the one doing it.

Did you say,

The most spiritual people I have ever known that lived the godliest lives were spirit filled believers that spoke in tongues.

?

No one said Christians are to be quiet, or wallflowers. In fact, I went to great length to say that personality
or disposition are not indicitive of ones spirituality, either way. We have examples of both boldness and gentleness in the apostolic church recorded in Acts. We know Peter's personality was bold and ourspoken. Not surprising he spoke out on the day of Pentecost. Philip on the other hand has a quaint encounter with the Ethiopian. Where those appointed to care for the widows and orphans less spiritual, than those called to preach?

Let me restate this since I wasn't clear. God can call extroverted and introverted people into the Kingdom. He can equip them to be bold, and He can equip them to be gentle and soft spoken.

I haven't really seen someone grow very close to God and then become quiet and nondiscernable. Interesting you have.

Neither Jac nor myself have stated that a Christian is to be a dud or a wallflower. But, are you insinuating that a quiet, non-discernable person like my friend Gregg is not being used of God?

I can't tell you how many charismatics I have met that when you mention faith they ask, "Are you filled with the Holy Spirit and gifted in tongues?" The assumption being you are not filled with the Holy Spirit if you are not speaking in tongues. A rather wrong assumption. Paul spent some time warning of this very thing.

When we try to qualify spirituality with outward charismatic signs, we can reduce Christianity to the experiential. This is a big problem in the church today. In other words folks don't "feel" spiritual unless someone falls out, prophecies or speaks in tongues. Often times this is substituted for the study of sound doctrine, quiet prayer, reverence, listening and reflection. Jesus counseled us on prayer and what NOT to do. I have a friend who is a Church of God pastor, and they had to ban speaking in tongues in the Sunday morning service to prevent things from getting out of hand.

Again, my point is I would be careful not to equate tongues with spirituality.