Heaven & Hell Vs Annihilation

[B. W.]

One, we can't be destroyed like animals or other things because we are soul. This seems to make sense to me. Our soul is a different substance that cannot be destroyed, or so the theory goes.

I would disagree...

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Nice try Bavarian Wheels - I do respect you so take this as a loving rebuke to your doctrine regarding soul sleep and final annihilation my friend.

If you do respect me, you're amongst a VERY small minority here, in fact, I'd say you're most likely alone in that. Thanks though.

I do take this as a loving rebuke and respect your interpretation, however, what you've laid out, I simply see differently.

A few light points and we'll leave it at that.

• 1. I don't think I ever argued that there isn't a hell or that it's "forever". I would argue against hell EXISTing forever as the saved and/or Kingdom of God will exist forever.
  
  2. The words, forever and everlasting, if studied throughout the Bible are not always literal, but figurative and synonymously of each other as well as used metaphorically. Sodom and Gomorrah, it is said, (Jude 1:7) that these cities serve as an example of the punishment of eternal fire...yet there is no fire today. It was burned to ashes and an example of what will happen to the ungodly (2 Peter 2:6)
  
  3. I don't believe the lake of fire will burn for "a little bit"...it will burn as long as there is something left to burn. Who knows how long it will take?
  
  4. Lastly...to an already Christian, this subject can be a very difficult subject to take in given either interpretation. I'd say your interpretation is more difficult to swallow, HOWEVER, even if I'm wrong, I know that God will wipe our tears. If the fire burns "forever" as you promote, it certainly cannot be in eye or ear shot of our existence in eternity.

As far as I'm concerned, if God chooses to burn people forever in perpetual agony, He's God...what can the created demand of the Creator?
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Let's see - let's not confuse people here - for reference I'll call you 'Bavarian' as I use B. W. as well.

Right now, I am on the mend from a severe sinus infection and beginning to feel a bit better. Give me another day and I'll respond.
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[Byblos]

willieH: Hi Byblos...

I am done with answering this unfruitful dialogue...

While you're at it you might want to tone down the ad homonym attacks.

Can you be specific? I was just noting opposition to ILLOGICAL and UNBIBLICAL stances... No "attacks" were intended...

Please dissect my answer, specifically noting what you consider "ad hominem attacks"... thanks

Even if you didn't attack anyone personally (which you did, see below), your style is one of condescension and ridicule. The subtle ways of insulting people by dismissing their views as illogical, the improper and excessive use of emoticons, highlights, colors, etc. You seem to me that you are here to impose your views and anyone who disagrees with you does not believe in the same god as you do. That could very well be the case but what you fail to see is that your view may very well be the erroneous one and it is your god who is not the God of the Bible and the God of Christianity. I hope you can keep an open mind that that might be the case (as of course we keep an open mind that you might be right (eyes rolling meant facetiously)).

As for ad homonyms, let's see exactly what you said:

Wow! You have a "God" who creates things and then proceeds to INTIMIDATE them, by his ridigidity and stiff-necked personality... insisting that even though they are weak and without the ability to OBEY His "LAWS"... that He is justified to PUNISH the "wickedness" that HE KNEW they would have, UNMERCIFULLY...

We absolutely, do not believe in the same GOD...

My GOD is YHVH... the one who SO LOVES the WORLD, the one who SENT NOT His Son to CONDEMN it, but to SAVE it...

Yours is one who gets all up in a wrinkle at FINITE "clods of dirt" which don't meet up to his INFINITE standards... that "gets no pleasure in seeing the wicked punished" (even though He knew they would be wicked, yet brought them forth regardless)... Making a POT, and then getting MAD at it because it was NOT PERFECT after HE made it... Please!

I would highlight where you were insulting and condescending but I'm afraid the highlight will be lost among the Technicolor. Just note one thing, the word 'Please' at the end, utter contempt for someone else's position, without giving them the benefit of a response. If that's not insulting I don't know what is. You might be in your 60's and might have studied scripture for over 30 years but that makes you neither a scholar nor a sage, as evidenced by your style with which you write and the unorthodox positions you espouse.

Your picture appears TOTALLY illogical and ALIEN to the definitions of GOD's LOVE, ...especially when compared to the TEACHINGS of CHRIST which COMMANDED we FORGIVE enemies... yet you would teach, that He is willing to POUR WRATH down on His because of HIS LOVE No offense, but that is as bass-akwards a view of the HOLY GOD of LOVE, as I have ever heard.

Your tone alone drips with sarcasm and ridicule. Your words are offensive the most when you precede them with 'No offense'.

Get real!

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What deranged double-talk is this?

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You shall regret in your shame for such loose dialogue

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What Scripture states that ANYONE is "going to Hell" jlay?

(note the rolling eyes yet again).

Those are but a sample of your style. Not very civil, is it?

For some odd reason I'm having a deja vu with your style of writing. Haven't we had the pleasure of dealing with it before?

"the pleasure of Dealing with it"? ...Thanks for the welcome! ...I'm overwhelmed!

btw... Isn't that kind of a subliminal, ..."ad hominem"?

For the record, ...I have never been here before... and "deja vu" is an imagination, so maybe its just your imagination, my friend!

Peace...

...willieH

Lol, I assure you I'm not one for subliminal attacks (as you can see). No I'm fairly certain it's not my imagination. There was someone not long ago that posted with exactly your style and even your mannerism but I have to admit, it could very well have been someone else.

And can you prove to me how you come to the conclusion that Deja Vu is an imagination? (perhaps in another thread though).


By the way, welcome to the board .

[willieH]

willieH: Hi jlay...

Oh boy?!

To save who? Condemned people.
And yes, I was condemned, but there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Well, that only goes to show that GOD has changed the scenario of "jlay" from [formerly] CONDEMNED, to [presently] NOT CONDEMNED... YOU in fact, had nothing to do with HIS WORK in this matter. Or was it (and I mean no offense, just wish to get your observation of this) ...YOU that placed YOURSELF, ...in CHRIST?

Seems to me that the Scripture notes that GOD "adds to the church" -- Acts 2:47 --

GOD is doing HIS IMPARTIAL WORK in ALL MEN... Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Job 34:17 -- Gal 2:6 -- which is done IMPARTIALLY, according to HIS CLOCK, and HIS WILL -- Eph 1:11 -- not ours.

The bible is very explicit in describing the wrath of God. i would take your objections up with the Word and not with me.
God loves us too much to let us stay like we are. god's love is demonstrated in wrath. What happened on the cross? Who killed Jesus? Romans? Jews? No, this was God's plan. Christ on the cross is God's wrath released upon His innocent son, so that we who beleive might be spared.

And just HOW did you come to BELIEVE jlay? Did you wake up one morning, and say "today, I am going to begin believing in God"? Or was it done as the WORD says it is done: John 6:44 -- that you (and I, and everyone else) are HELPLESS to come to CHRIST of ourselves? And if we are HELPLESS to come, ...EXCEPT... by His DOING, and HE is IMPARTIAL to men, then, if you and I are found no longer OUTSIDE of CHRIST, but others ARE, ...does He maintain His IMPARTIALITY by bringing His WRATH against them, instead of SAVING them? Give ear jlay, and learn... awake from

Theology calls it substitutional atonement.

"Theology" calls it? What AUTHORITY has "theology", that we are required to accept and to BELIEVE its terminologies? You are more than welcome to believe ANY and ALL their (possibly erroneous) positions... but do not require me to do so...

Btw... I have never stated that the Bible does not indicate GOD's WRATH... I just believe it to be NOW, and to be against the UNGODLINESSES that are found OF men while they are alive in the body of SIN...

Christians get CANCER, and are prayed for, yet NOT HEALED. Will you explain to me WHY?

Christians DIED in Hurricane Katrina, why were they not SPARED? Would you elaborate?

PAUL was left to be in the SEA for 1.5 days, 2 Cor 11:25 ...why didn't GOD "fish him out"?

GOD means us to travel the road of distress, and sorrow, that our RECOGNITION of His wonderful JOY be secured and appreciated, forever!

willieH: LOVE does NOT get angry at the OBJECTS of LOVE, because the OBJECT is doing what it was INTENDED to do! GOD made man ABLE to SIN... that means that before we came upon the earth, it was DETERMINED by HIM

God is angry with the wicked everyday. that is scriptural.

GOD's "anger" is NOT as it is in MEN. Men are EMOTIONAL beings which are FINITE and cannot see what is in the next MINUTE... GOD sees ALL before it occurs, yet lets it OCCUR. That He finds a dislike of the manifestation of EVIL, still finds its way back to HIM as the CREATOR of it...

My daughter suffered a few broken hearts in her teen years. It sorrowed ME, every bit as much as it did her... Did I therefore instruct her to give up on LOVE? NO WAY! As GOD sees His beloved in harm's way, does not give Him pleasure... but it has an END which shall jettison that displeasure in both HIM and US... forever...

GOD is not an EMOTIONAL being, as YOU have previously pointed out. He finds DISTASTE in those things which are in OPPOSITION to His HOLINESS and GOODNESS...

GOD ...created EVIL -- Is 45:7 -- and which HE, allows to have a continuing existence in time... and in the presence of that HOLINESS -- for a PURPOSE! And that PURPOSE is to GLORIFY that GOOD and HOLINESS!

And God is love. God loved us while we were yet in our sin. Even while we were at enmity with God, He purposed to send Christ to save us. God doesn't get angr, like some emotionally challenged human, getting red in the face, and throwing fits.

You are only making my points jlay... Many Christians love to bellow -- "God HATES the SIN, but LOVES the SINNER"... This is SO TRUE, But do they really BELIEVE this? No they do not... They only believe it concerning THEMSELVES, and as they sit in their "pews", and as they observe the ones OUTSIDE of CHRIST, they determine these "outsideres" as FUEL for the FIRE of the "ANGER" of GOD... Failing to see, and EASILY FORGETTING, that they were once numbered amongst those whom they "theologically" CONDEMN...

God is always angry with the wicked. And He is always loving.

God is loving even unto the "wicked" jlay, of which YOU were once numbered, as was I... That is WHY you are no longer numbered with them, for even though you (and I) were "wicked", He LOVED us enough to bring us OUT of it... and He SO LOVES the rest of the WORLD, the SAME! And will DO for them, what He has done for US...

He is/was not "angry" with the wicked, He is angry with the "wickedness" they do... not THEM...

What most fail to see, is that GOOD is defined by EVIL and vice versa... for they are BOTH a SINGLE KNOWLEDGE, rooted in the SAME TREE.

Gen 2:17 ..but of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE [one knowledge] of GOOD and EVIL... thou shalt not eat of it, for in the DAY that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely DIE.

This was a prophecy, not a possibility... for the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world... This PROVES that it was the INTENDED, for even though man was made in the image of God, he lacked ONE portion, that being the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL = Gen 3:22 -- Behold, the man IS BECOME as one of US to KNOW Good and Evil...

...willieH

[jlay]

He is/was not "angry" with the wicked, He is angry with the "wickedness" they do... not THEM...

That is not what my bible says. It says He is angry with the wicked and that He hates lying lips.

Well, that only goes to show that GOD has changed the scenario of "jlay" from [formerly] CONDEMNED, to [presently] NOT CONDEMNED... YOU in fact, had nothing to do with HIS WORK in this matter. Or was it (and I mean no offense, just wish to get your observation of this) ...YOU that placed YOURSELF, ...in CHRIST?

I don't claim any credit. Christ died for me while I was yet in my sin. But the bible clearly defines those who accept and trust, and those who do not. We are saved by grace. But the Bible states clearly that it is THROUGH faith. All we can do is respond. Why would the Word tell us to trust and confess if that were not a response that God has soverignly put in our hands. If someone offers you a $100 bill you can't take credit for it. But you certainly can respond by taking it, or rejecting it.

And just HOW did you come to BELIEVE jlay?

I believe that the grace of God goes before every man. That He receives no pleasure from seeing the wicked punished and that He desires that every one come to repentance. I believe that His hand is not too short.
I can see where God has worked in my life. I can also see how He has worked in the life of others who blatantly reject His mercy and grace. I can also remember the moment I placed my trust in Him. (Not the moment I beleived He existed) I can remember the battle of pride vs. the desire to trust. Our ability to chose, is His gift. We can't even claim credit for that. I know that I''m not some preprogrammed robot. But I do know that I can only love God because He loved me first. Whoever desires to follow Him will have to deny himself.

"God HATES the SIN, but LOVES the SINNER"...

You won't hear me say that. For one it is unspcriptural. It is an attempt to water down God's utter hatred of sin, and the fact that we are enemies of God in our minds by wicked works, and that we are storing up wrath for ourselves for the DAY of WRATH in which His righteous judgment will be revealed.

Christians get CANCER, and are prayed for, yet NOT HEALED. Will you explain to me WHY?

The rain falls on the just and the unjust.

[zoegirl]

Good post jlay

[willieH]

willieH: Hi jlay...

willieH: He is/was not "angry" with the wicked, He is angry with the "wickedness" they do... not THEM...

That is not what my bible says. It says He is angry with the wicked and that He hates lying lips.

Again you fail to quote your references...

Rom 1:18 ...for the WRATH of GOD IS revealed from heaven against ALL the Ungodliness and Unrighteousness ...OF... men... who hold the TRUTH in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS...

GOD is LOVE, jlay... LOVE does not "HATE"... That is an oxymoron... LOVE finds FORGIVENESS for enemies via GRACE, ...it does not seek VENGENCE...

willieH: Well, that only goes to show that GOD has changed the scenario of "jlay" from [formerly] CONDEMNED, to [presently] NOT CONDEMNED... YOU in fact, had nothing to do with HIS WORK in this matter. Or was it (and I mean no offense, just wish to get your observation of this) ...YOU that placed YOURSELF, ...in CHRIST?

I don't claim any credit. Christ died for me while I was yet in my sin. But the bible clearly defines those who accept and trust, and those who do not. We are saved by grace. But the Bible states clearly that it is THROUGH faith.

This is "him-haw" answer which avoids the question asked, ...of course we are SAVED by GRACE through FAITH ...but that was NOT the question asked...

Why did you not answer the question jlay? which was: Did YOU put YOURSELF ...IN CHRIST?

If your answer is that it was CHRIST that "authored" your FAITH, and He is not a RESPECTER of persons (IMPARTIAL)... then He must AUTHOR it in ALL others... For THAT is what is SCRIPTURAL: Heb 12:2 -- Rom 12:3

If your answer to this question is that YOU authored your own FAITH jlay, and that is your belief, ...then you are your own Savior, for it takes FAITH to BELIEVE in the Savior... and according to YOU, without it (your own self-inovated faith) you are not SAVED... therefore, You are your own savior... (at least, so it would appear that you think)

All we can do is respond. Why would the Word tell us to trust and confess if that were not a response that God has soverignly put in our hands. If someone offers you a $100 bill you can't take credit for it. But you certainly can respond by taking it, or rejecting it.

If GOD has "sovereignly" (which is another oxymoron), put it in YOUR HANDS to RESPOND and thereby be SAVED, then you ARE your own SAVIOR!

Where does it say that GOD "sovereignly" put SALVATION in YOUR HANDS to decide jlay?

Sovereignty means that HE maintains ABSOLUTE POWER... The SCRIPTURE states that ALL -- not just SOME or MOST -- but ALL POWER is of GOD, and that there is NO POWER which is outside of HIM, and that ALL POWERS (including the power of choice), are ORDAINED of HIM -- Rom 13:1 His WORK is COMPLETELY His... concerning Salvation.

Eph 2:8-9 States CLEARLY that MAN does NOTHING in the accomplishment of SALVATION... Even YOUR "RESPONSE" is due to HIM... for NO MAN ...CAN come to CHRIST, except he be DRAGGED to Him... John 6;44 & 65

willieH: And just HOW did you come to BELIEVE jlay?

I believe that the grace of God goes before every man. That He receives no pleasure from seeing the wicked punished and that He desires that every one come to repentance. I believe that His hand is not too short. I can see where God has worked in my life. I can also see how He has worked in the life of others who blatantly reject His mercy and grace. I can also remember the moment I placed my trust in Him. (Not the moment I beleived He existed) I can remember the battle of pride vs. the desire to trust. Our ability to chose, is His gift. We can't even claim credit for that. I know that I''m not some preprogrammed robot. But I do know that I can only love God because He loved me first. Whoever desires to follow Him will have to deny himself.

How do you know that you are not such a thing, jlay? The WORD contradicts you: Rom 9:16 -- Prov 20:28 -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 ...though you are a LIVING being... GOD is in CONTROL of ALL THINGS... which means YOU are NOT ...IN CONTROL!

What if it really turns out that you ARE a pre-programmed "robot" jlay? Shall you to talk back to GOD and complain? -- Rom 9:20 Will you reject the LIFE of a LIVING robot, because it does not meet YOUR finite and pathetically incomplete standards?

You do not follow Him because YOU decide to! It is GOD which decides who does and does NOT follow Him... Ask the JEWS! He BLINDED them, that they shall NOT SEE jlay! -- Rom 11:25, ...yet Paul states they shall ALL be SAVED, even though MOST of them have gone to the grave UNBELIEVERS in the Savior!

They were given the WORD, THEY are the NATURAL branches, ...and yet DID NOT and DO NOT, understand it! ...Still don't!

willieH: (partial quote) "God HATES the SIN, but LOVES the SINNER"...

You won't hear me say that. For one it is unspcriptural.

Oh, I beg to DIFFER with you... it ABSOLUTELY IS SCRIPTURAL... Here are a few which say EXACTLY that:

John 3:16 -- the WORLD was filled with SINNERS, and it was the WORLD full of SINNERS, that GOD "so LOVED"

Rom 5:6 & 8 vs 5 -- For WHEN we were yet without strength, in due time, CHRIST died for the UNGODLY -- just what does UNGODLY mean to you jlay?

If you don't have a "pat answer", read on -- vs 8 -- but GOD commendeth HIS LOVE toward us, in that WHILE we were YET SINNERS, CHRIST died for us! ...Are you STILL in DENIAL jlay?

It is an attempt to water down God's utter hatred of sin, and the fact that we are enemies of God in our minds by wicked works, and that we are storing up wrath for ourselves for the DAY of WRATH in which His righteous judgment will be revealed.

No water, just the TRUTH... what is "watered down" is the FAKE theology which teaches GOD as HATEFUL, ANGRY, and a VENGENT ETERNAL TORMENTER that DWARFS the HEINOUS actions of HITLER... MERCILESS, without COMPASSION... that dear friend, is what has been DISTORTED and "watered down"...

We have never been, nor will we ever be enemies of GOD, on the contrary, ...we are THEY which GOD SO LOVES! ...it is the wickedness that we DO, which is His enemy, and is THAT which is to be DESTROYED in ALL...

He is a SAVIOR of ALL, not a SAVIOR of SOME... 1 Tim 4:10 / 1 Tim 2:4 / 1 John 4:14 / Luke 19:10 / John 1:29 / Col 1:20 -- do you need more? Rom 5:18-20 / Heb 2:9 / Titus 2:11 / Phil 2:10-11 / 2 Cor 5:18-19 / 1 Cor 15:22 / 1 John 2:2 / John 12:32

You bask in the ugly teachings of FEAR... thinking the WRATH of God is other than what we face HERE... awaiting HORROR to come and last FOREVER for most, but not for YOU... how convenient forya...

GOD does not HATE the sinner... He detests that which is OPPOSITE of Himself... and rightly so... but LOVES the WORLD which is being falsely taught by MANY which go to the WORLD, bearing His name... as He SAID they would... Matt 24:5 ...DECIEVING them, ...heaping SHAME unto themselves...

Do you believe in teaching HELL jlay? If so, here's another question you will not be able to answer -- Where is the DIRECTIVE to do so? (teach "Hell")

Why did the Apostles REFRAIN from teaching it? Why are there NO EXAMPLES of it being taught? Why did CHRIST only mention the mistranslated words GEHENNA and HADES only on 7 total occasions, in over 3-plus years of teaching?

I'll tell you WHY... because it is the doctrine of DEVILS... it is the FALSE GOSPEL which has been invented by MEN... born in the minds of wicked false prophets...

willieH: Christians get CANCER, and are prayed for, yet NOT HEALED. Will you explain to me WHY?

The rain falls on the just and the unjust.

This verse you quote, is not speaking of CURSING jlay! Are you so blind as to not see the meaning of this verse, and attempt to use a verse which is about BLESSING and FORGIVENESS, as an answer to explain, CURSING?

This verse is speaking of BLESSING which is sent upon ALL... as CHRIST is noting previously to FORGIVE enemies, and do GOOD to those who despitefully USE...

Matt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in Heaven, for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil, and on the good, and sendeth the RAIN on the just and the unjust...

This is NOT an explanation, and you evade a question asked you, once again...

You have removed this from its contextual meaning... the "rain" you quote here is describing a BLESSING, not a curse...

CANCER is definitely a curse... maybe you shall one day, have your turn with it... and in that day, you shall KNOW it is hardly the BLESSING found in GOD sending His RAIN upon the just and the unjust...

Sad to report, that I am currently having mine...

...willieH

[jlay]

Willie,

I think I'll be evading your post from here on out. You are condescending, ask loaded questions, and you make ad hominem attacks. I've been quite patient up to this point, but I'm done with you. Which is sad, because this is actually something I'd like to discuss.

If GOD has "sovereignly" (which is another oxymoron), put it in YOUR HANDS to RESPOND and thereby be SAVED, then you ARE your own SAVIOR!

That is ridiculous, and a good example of why our dialog will end here.

2 peter 2

[B. W.]

Okay, here goes Bavarian and maybe others questions and objection maybe answered here. I listed Bavarian's questions and answered each as well as added a few other items to answer others as well...

…1. I don't think I ever argued that there isn't a hell or that it's "forever". I would argue against hell EXISTing forever as the saved and/or Kingdom of God will exist forever.

2. The words, forever and everlasting, if studied throughout the Bible are not always literal, but figurative and synonymously of each other as well as used metaphorically. Sodom and Gomorrah, it is said, (Jude 1:7) that these cities serve as an example of the punishment of eternal fire...yet there is no fire today. It was burned to ashes and an example of what will happen to the ungodly (2 Peter 2:6)

B. W. Melvin - my response: The phrases used in Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6, 'eternal fire' is being used synonymously to refer to 'eternal judgment' which began the moment the cities on the plains were destroyed. Likewise, in the book of Revelations God's judgment is poured out indicating that it has a definite beginning.

After the judgment is executed in Revelations and its prophecy fulfilled, the areas destroyed are no more. Does this mean God's judgment and wrath ceases because our eyes cannot see it? The answer is a resounding 'NO!' It is carried out elsewhere — forever (Hebrews 9:27) because after judgment comes the commuting of sentence (Luke 12:4-5).

People read into the text and cite — the cities mentioned in Jude and 2 Peter do not exist, there is no fire, so therefore eternal punishment is not eternal. This is wrong — Deu 32:22 states God's wrath continues to burn in the lowest hell. That is forever. There is a reason for this. After all, various bible passages teach that whatever God does it endures forever, his counsel will stand, etc (concisely summed up in Ecc 3:14).

Next, as for the words translated forever/eternal meaning age or a short duration of an age of time, again that is reading into the text what it may not really mean. It is the context that defines and reveals the actual meaning of the words. By spinning a short age/duration into every meaning of text does injustice to the bible. Look at Matthew 25:46:

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ESV

If eternal punishment is not forever, neither would eternal life be forever either. You have the word eternal used twice in same grammar from and usage. You cannot use one definition for one word without applying it to the other in this text without violating the very grammar of the text. If eternal life that comes through the Lord to be with him is not eternal then the bible has recorded and proven God's own word to be based on an irreconcilable contradiction and thus not true.

Look realistically at what writers like Fudge and Stotts do — in essences their argument makes God bow to the whims of man's will. That is rebellion. Rebellion is the sin of divination/witchcraft the bible states in 1 Samuel 15:23. Divination/witchcraft as used in the context of that OT verse meant that people manipulate God, or gods, or spirits to do a person's bidding. Who are we to cite that God's wrath / punishment unfair if it last eternally forever? Who are we to tell God, he cannot do this by manipulating the bible text to get us off the eternal hook?

If you but look at how God proves his justice, you'll discover why his wrath is eternal and why he gives to each according to their deeds — reaping what they have sown. How can God be just if he is coercive, does not allow people to make up there own minds even knowing their deeds and intents before they are ever born (Deu 31:21, Lev 26:14-15, 23,27)?

In his justice — he still lets them live! Amazingly profound! Yet hold them justly to account as well as warns them despite knowing what they'll do and how they'll end up! Does this not prove God judges with equities fairness as well as prove he is just to all? After all, God really has no need to consider anyone further as Job 34:23 states, but because of who he is — He still let's a person live. Ponder his awesome justice more on your own.

Compare that principle of justice to heaven if God allows all in as some cite. If such foreknown corruption is allowed into heaven — then it would corrupt it. No, God will not allow this to happen again. He provides the means to return to him, on his terms, and cleanses us during this mortal sojourn (Isaiah 55:6-7). Reject this — then God honors that person's intent and also will not renege on the gift of life he gave. What God does endures forever (Ecc 3:14-17, Isaiah 45:21-25) if not, then how can he be God true to himself? A God who keeps his word and reneges on no gift?

If one argues that life is not a gift from God — then what is it (Job 33:4)? He foreknew us all before we were ever born and could have chose not to make humanity because of sin. Instead, he did what? What do we each of us do with this gift of life? If God fashioned us originally according to a similitude of his image and likeness does not whatever God does endure forever?

If God made the soul, spirit, and the mortal body of human beings, then these also will last forever as God deems best according to his own time and purposes — not ours. He made us; therefore, what he made is forever. Deny that foreverness in any shape or form, then how could God really be a just God and savior? Think on this a bit more.

3. I don't believe the lake of fire will burn for "a little bit"...it will burn as long as there is something left to burn. Who knows how long it will take?

Read Ecc 3:14-17, Isaiah 45:21-25 Isaiah 55:11 for your answers...

4. Lastly...to an already Christian, this subject can be a very difficult subject to take in given either interpretation. I'd say your interpretation is more difficult to swallow, HOWEVER, even if I'm wrong, I know that God will wipe our tears. If the fire burns "forever" as you promote, it certainly cannot be in eye or ear shot of our existence in eternity.

As far as I'm concerned, if God chooses to burn people forever in perpetual agony, He's God...what can the created demand of the Creator?

Again, please do not bring disrupt to God and make him out as cruel for everlasting torment of the lost. Fire can be literal or symbolic. In Revelations 20:10 and verse 15 make it plain that whatever this fire is — it will last forever and ever causing those within it to eternally reap what they have sown. If it is sin they want and rebellion — they'll have it tormenting them.

Jesus warns all to avoid hell at all cost; yet, people continue to mock its need, obfuscate its duration, or deny its reality in hopes eternal is not true. Who is right - Jesus or men?

Also note in Revelations it lays out the principle that it is one's own torment that does the tormenting. This fits these principles within the bible, what a person sows they'll reap as well as God rending each one according to their deeds; therefore, your or anyone's revulsion of God being a happy torturer is scripturally unfound as well as unsound.

Finally, oblivion is non-being. Non-being would also be unjust for a just God to perform even though he could. If he did, how could he really and truthfully be just to a living entity by taking away the gift of life he gave turning it into a non-being state? Would this not prove that God is not really and truthfully just? How do you think the devil got away with his rebellion — albeit temporally?

There are way too many scriptures that reveal God keeps his word and reneges on no gift even when he foreknows one will abuse such. He made a way back to him and pleads to all to avoid an eternal everlasting hell. Yet, he is just to the unjust giving them what they desire — life without him after he warns them through the gospel offering them another chance despite already knowing the answer of their/ our hearts. Justice profound!

Final Note on Universalism:

Universalist claim that God cannot torture and are repulsed by the notion that God could ever be a happy torturer. However, some Universalist proceeds to make the claim that God tortures with fire in a small pond until a person is purged of sin. Then everyone eventually enters heaven loving God.

How can God, who cannot torture — torture people until they love him? That is illogical as it denies God of his own justice. It also makes the work of the Cross pointless as all can eventually be forced to love God by means of fire. Universalism actually denies the purpose of the cross altogether because Christ would have died in vain if all get it by means of a little purging torture to make them love God.

Again, who is forcing whose knee to bow to whom? Rebellion is the sin of divination…

Repent…

Jeremiah 17:9-10, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? 10 "I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."

Isaiah 59:18, “According to their deeds, so will he repay, wrath to his adversaries, repayment to his enemies; to the coastlands he will render repayment.”

Proverbs 3:33-35, “The LORD's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the dwelling of the righteous. 34 Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he gives favor. 35 The wise will inherit honor, but fools get disgrace. “

Isaiah 46:10, “…declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose…”

Ecc 3:14-17, “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him. 15 That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away. 16 Moreover, I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, even there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness, even there was wickedness. 17 I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work…”

Job 34:10-12, "Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong. 11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him. 12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

All Scriptures cited are from the ESV
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[BavarianWheels]

B.W.'s proof texts:

I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him.

Eternal death endures forever...no where does this text say the fires of Hell will burn continually forever. No where does this text mention the continual pain and agony in the fires of hell into eternity.

Next "proof" text.

Isaiah 45:21-25 (too much to quote for nothing) mentions nothing of eternal fire, punishment, nor never-ending pain and agony.

Next "proof" text.

...so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Nothing here either that "proves" eternal agony and pain.

Let's see what Paul says of this...

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in* Christ Jesus our Lord.

Are you then saying that your interpretation of eternal punishment is more correct than Paul's?
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[jlay]

wheels,

Clearly Paul is not attempting to make a statement regarding hell in Romans 6:23. The context of Romans 6 is a statement of hope in Christ and being dead to sin.

In fact do we know what Paul is communicating when he uses the word death in this verse. Prior to this verse Paul talks of death in a number of contexts.
Paul mentions in Eph 1 about one being dead in their sin.
Paul says in 6:11, count yourselves dead to sin. And, that by trusting in Christ we are brought from death to life. But our body still dies, right? Yep.

So, to infer that Paul is making such a statement in Romans 6 is not accurate.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi jlay...

Willie,

I think I'll be evading your post from here on out. You are condescending, ask loaded questions, and you make ad hominem attacks. I've been quite patient up to this point, but I'm done with you. Which is sad, because this is actually something I'd like to discuss.

If GOD has "sovereignly" (which is another oxymoron), put it in YOUR HANDS to RESPOND and thereby be SAVED, then you ARE your own SAVIOR!

That is ridiculous, and a good example of why our dialog will end here.

2 peter 2

I couldn't agree more with your quote of 2 Pet 2... MANY (not few) are doing EXACTLY what it SAYS...

As far as the rest of your answer above, you took what I said OUT of the CONTEXT of what I said, not quoting the entire thought, in order to enable you to make your comment...

You are welcome to make up any excuse you like to avoid answering me, and are welcome to remain in those excuses...

You have no viable answers to my posts, which is the real reason for you are choosing to abstain from discussing the issue...

...willieH

[willieH]

willieH: Hi BW...

I will probably be getting kicked out of here soon, so I will compose an answer to what you have said here (which might constitute or bring about that "kicking") and post it later...

There is MUCH to say about what you have said here... much of it is uninformed, unfounded and generalization...

Okay, here goes Bavarian and maybe others questions and objection maybe answered here. I listed Bavarian's questions and answered each as well as added a few other items to answer others as well...

…1. I don't think I ever argued that there isn't a hell or that it's "forever". I would argue against hell EXISTing forever as the saved and/or Kingdom of God will exist forever.

2. The words, forever and everlasting, if studied throughout the Bible are not always literal, but figurative and synonymously of each other as well as used metaphorically. Sodom and Gomorrah, it is said, (Jude 1:7) that these cities serve as an example of the punishment of eternal fire...yet there is no fire today. It was burned to ashes and an example of what will happen to the ungodly (2 Peter 2:6)

B. W. Melvin - my response: The phrases used in Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6, 'eternal fire' is being used synonymously to refer to 'eternal judgment' which began the moment the cities on the plains were destroyed. Likewise, in the book of Revelations God's judgment is poured out indicating that it has a definite beginning.

After the judgment is executed in Revelations and its prophecy fulfilled, the areas destroyed are no more. Does this mean God's judgment and wrath ceases because our eyes cannot see it? The answer is a resounding 'NO!' It is carried out elsewhere — forever (Hebrews 9:27) because after judgment comes the commuting of sentence (Luke 12:4-5).

People read into the text and cite — the cities mentioned in Jude and 2 Peter do not exist, there is no fire, so therefore eternal punishment is not eternal. This is wrong — Deu 32:22 states God's wrath continues to burn in the lowest hell. That is forever. There is a reason for this. After all, various bible passages teach that whatever God does it endures forever, his counsel will stand, etc (concisely summed up in Ecc 3:14).

Next, as for the words translated forever/eternal meaning age or a short duration of an age of time, again that is reading into the text what it may not really mean. It is the context that defines and reveals the actual meaning of the words. By spinning a short age/duration into every meaning of text does injustice to the bible. Look at Matthew 25:46:

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ESV

If eternal punishment is not forever, neither would eternal life be forever either. You have the word eternal used twice in same grammar from and usage. You cannot use one definition for one word without applying it to the other in this text without violating the very grammar of the text. If eternal life that comes through the Lord to be with him is not eternal then the bible has recorded and proven God's own word to be based on an irreconcilable contradiction and thus not true.

Look realistically at what writers like Fudge and Stotts do — in essences their argument makes God bow to the whims of man's will. That is rebellion. Rebellion is the sin of divination/witchcraft the bible states in 1 Samuel 15:23. Divination/witchcraft as used in the context of that OT verse meant that people manipulate God, or gods, or spirits to do a person's bidding. Who are we to cite that God's wrath / punishment unfair if it last eternally forever? Who are we to tell God, he cannot do this by manipulating the bible text to get us off the eternal hook?

If you but look at how God proves his justice, you'll discover why his wrath is eternal and why he gives to each according to their deeds — reaping what they have sown. How can God be just if he is coercive, does not allow people to make up there own minds even knowing their deeds and intents before they are ever born (Deu 31:21, Lev 26:14-15, 23,27)?

In his justice — he still lets them live! Amazingly profound! Yet hold them justly to account as well as warns them despite knowing what they'll do and how they'll end up! Does this not prove God judges with equities fairness as well as prove he is just to all? After all, God really has no need to consider anyone further as Job 34:23 states, but because of who he is — He still let's a person live. Ponder his awesome justice more on your own.

Compare that principle of justice to heaven if God allows all in as some cite. If such foreknown corruption is allowed into heaven — then it would corrupt it. No, God will not allow this to happen again. He provides the means to return to him, on his terms, and cleanses us during this mortal sojourn (Isaiah 55:6-7). Reject this — then God honors that person's intent and also will not renege on the gift of life he gave. What God does endures forever (Ecc 3:14-17, Isaiah 45:21-25) if not, then how can he be God true to himself? A God who keeps his word and reneges on no gift?

If one argues that life is not a gift from God — then what is it (Job 33:4)? He foreknew us all before we were ever born and could have chose not to make humanity because of sin. Instead, he did what? What do we each of us do with this gift of life? If God fashioned us originally according to a similitude of his image and likeness does not whatever God does endure forever?

If God made the soul, spirit, and the mortal body of human beings, then these also will last forever as God deems best according to his own time and purposes — not ours. He made us; therefore, what he made is forever. Deny that foreverness in any shape or form, then how could God really be a just God and savior? Think on this a bit more.

3. I don't believe the lake of fire will burn for "a little bit"...it will burn as long as there is something left to burn. Who knows how long it will take?

Read Ecc 3:14-17, Isaiah 45:21-25 Isaiah 55:11 for your answers...

4. Lastly...to an already Christian, this subject can be a very difficult subject to take in given either interpretation. I'd say your interpretation is more difficult to swallow, HOWEVER, even if I'm wrong, I know that God will wipe our tears. If the fire burns "forever" as you promote, it certainly cannot be in eye or ear shot of our existence in eternity.

As far as I'm concerned, if God chooses to burn people forever in perpetual agony, He's God...what can the created demand of the Creator?

Again, please do not bring disrupt to God and make him out as cruel for everlasting torment of the lost. Fire can be literal or symbolic. In Revelations 20:10 and verse 15 make it plain that whatever this fire is — it will last forever and ever causing those within it to eternally reap what they have sown. If it is sin they want and rebellion — they'll have it tormenting them.

Jesus warns all to avoid hell at all cost; yet, people continue to mock its need, obfuscate its duration, or deny its reality in hopes eternal is not true. Who is right - Jesus or men?

Also note in Revelations it lays out the principle that it is one's own torment that does the tormenting. This fits these principles within the bible, what a person sows they'll reap as well as God rending each one according to their deeds; therefore, your or anyone's revulsion of God being a happy torturer is scripturally unfound as well as unsound.

Finally, oblivion is non-being. Non-being would also be unjust for a just God to perform even though he could. If he did, how could he really and truthfully be just to a living entity by taking away the gift of life he gave turning it into a non-being state? Would this not prove that God is not really and truthfully just? How do you think the devil got away with his rebellion — albeit temporally?

There are way too many scriptures that reveal God keeps his word and reneges on no gift even when he foreknows one will abuse such. He made a way back to him and pleads to all to avoid an eternal everlasting hell. Yet, he is just to the unjust giving them what they desire — life without him after he warns them through the gospel offering them another chance despite already knowing the answer of their/ our hearts. Justice profound!

Final Note on Universalism:

Universalist claim that God cannot torture and are repulsed by the notion that God could ever be a happy torturer. However, some Universalist proceeds to make the claim that God tortures with fire in a small pond until a person is purged of sin. Then everyone eventually enters heaven loving God.

How can God, who cannot torture — torture people until they love him? That is illogical as it denies God of his own justice. It also makes the work of the Cross pointless as all can eventually be forced to love God by means of fire. Universalism actually denies the purpose of the cross altogether because Christ would have died in vain if all get it by means of a little purging torture to make them love God.

Again, who is forcing whose knee to bow to whom? Rebellion is the sin of divination…

Repent…

Jeremiah 17:9-10, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? 10 "I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."

Isaiah 59:18, “According to their deeds, so will he repay, wrath to his adversaries, repayment to his enemies; to the coastlands he will render repayment.”

Proverbs 3:33-35, “The LORD's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the dwelling of the righteous. 34 Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he gives favor. 35 The wise will inherit honor, but fools get disgrace. “

Isaiah 46:10, “…declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose…”

Ecc 3:14-17, “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him. 15 That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away. 16 Moreover, I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, even there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness, even there was wickedness. 17 I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work…”

Job 34:10-12, "Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong. 11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him. 12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

All Scriptures cited are from the ESV
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Peace...

...willieH

[Byblos]

Let's see what Paul says of this...

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in* Christ Jesus our Lord.

Are you then saying that your interpretation of eternal punishment is more correct than Paul's?
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It rather depends on what is meant by death then, doesn't it? Let's see if we can explore that a little by looking at what God meant by the wages of sin being death, way back when in Genesis with Adam and Eve. God said:

"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; (17) but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

So we've already established that the wages of sin is most definitely death. But what kind of death is it? Well, since Adam and Eve didn't immediately die and went on to live very long lives, it seems logical then to conclude there are 2 kinds of deaths, a physical death as well as a spiritual death. Whether or not physical death was brought on by sin is an entirely different debate so we can let that go for now. On to spiritual death, what is meant by that? Exactly what happened to Adam and Eve when they disobeyed God? Were they annihilated? No. They were chased out of the garden of Eden and out of the presence of God. That's a clear indication as to what spiritual death is, the separation from God who is life. That's how it was preached in the NT and how the early church fathers understood it.

Here are a few quotes:

"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1—2 [A.D. 110]).

"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and b.asphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).

"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).

[Byblos]

I will probably be getting kicked out of here soon

Only you can decide whether or not to abide by the rules (of the board purpose and the discussion guidelines) or you want to be banished from the garden ... err ... board.

[BavarianWheels]

wheels,

Clearly Paul is not attempting to make a statement regarding hell in Romans 6:23. The context of Romans 6 is a statement of hope in Christ and being dead to sin.

In fact do we know what Paul is communicating when he uses the word death in this verse. Prior to this verse Paul talks of death in a number of contexts.
Paul mentions in Eph 1 about one being dead in their sin.
Paul says in 6:11, count yourselves dead to sin. And, that by trusting in Christ we are brought from death to life. But our body still dies, right? Yep.

So, to infer that Paul is making such a statement in Romans 6 is not accurate.

Dead to sin? Let's look at this...if we are dead to sin, then in the context of hell, we should be suffering as THAT is what B.W. and apparently you are saying is hell. However the simplicity of these three words, death to sin, further makes eternal, perpetual pain and suffering in hell simply foreign to God's plan. If the wages of sin is perpetual pain/suffering/agony...then when did we pay that pain in Christ? Is Christ in perpetual pain and agony? No, He's alive...having PAID THE WAGE...which is death.

Paul also clearly states that we are brought from death to life...no mention of agonizing pain in the fires of hell. It is mentioned over and over in scripture and even examples are given...but for your man-made traditions and interpretations...

The wage is DEAD / DEATH apart from Christ and in sin.

No where did I mention that Paul was making a statement of hell...however, thank you, jlay, for establishing my point more clearly.
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