Heaven & Hell Vs Annihilation

[jlay]

Again, I think you are missing the context.

Dead to sin, is a good thing. Through Christ we are dead to sin, alive in Christ.

Someone who is unsaved is dead IN their sin. Just as you, and I, and anyone would be apart from Christ. This is regarding people who are physically alive, but are dead spiritually, otherwise lost.

Paul also clearly states that we are brought from death to life

Again this is talking about people who are physically alive and were lost, now gaining new life or being born again. Not the day of judgment. It is appointed once to die and THEN the judgment. We become alive in Christ (born again) when we trust in him. This is why Jesus told Nicodemus you MUST be born again, or born from above.

...no mention of agonizing pain in the fires of hell.

In this context why would it? There is now no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus.

Surely you also understand that Revelation talks about death in terms of the 2nd death.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi BW...

Discussing the fallacy of ETERNAL torment (HELL) is of my favorites... It is quite easy to refute because...

BATTER UP!

(1) it proposes that LOVE which is GOD... is nothing more than a merciless "HITLER" of eternal proportions (which is ridiculous) ...1 Cor 13 defines the LOVE of God... Please note the presence of this doctrine [HELL], within that description... strike 1

(2) that it is deemed so by FINITES which cannot even BEHOLD the ETERNAL... so you end up having men discussing a "language" of EXISTENCE, they do not understand... strike 2

(3) It proclaims GOD's WORD as a LIE, because later in Revelation it is stated that SORROW and PAIN (amongst other things) are PASSED AWAY... strike 3

(4) That OF COURSE, in convenience, ALL that proclaim its fallacy, are not part of the TORMENTED -- strike 4 (oh yeah, we only needed 3 strikes! )

That said, this was so much info, that I thought I would just take a portion of it... Let's start here:

Again, please do not bring disrupt to God and make him out as cruel for everlasting torment of the lost. Fire can be literal or symbolic. In Revelations 20:10 and verse 15 make it plain that whatever this fire is — it will last forever and ever causing those within it to eternally reap what they have sown. If it is sin they want and rebellion — they'll have it tormenting them.

Though you, in the outset of this quote, seem to devote part of your thought to this work as SYMBOLIC (which the Revelation of JESUS CHRIST, so names itself in its beginning verse - Rev 1:1) you immediately apply LINEAR and FINITE thought to it... thinking that which was done in the FINITE is now applicable to the ETERNAL... ("reap what they have sown")... failing to understand that "reaping and sowing" is done IN THIS LIFE...

PAUL notes sowing to the flesh is reaped of the flesh: Gal 6:8 --- That which is sown to the FLESH is temporal, and those who sow temporally, will reap corruption temporally... He that soweth to his flesh, shall ...OF THE FLESH, reap corruption... this is not speaking of beyond this LIFE... this is speaking of IN THIS LIFE...

Back to Rev 20:10...

To begin with, the "torment" whatever it is in Rev 20:10, is certainly NOT "hell"... for "HELL" is cast into whatever is doing the "Tormenting" (Lake of FIRE)... (see Rev 20:14)... Something cannot be "cast into", itself...

For instance --- Here a ball BW... try to cast the BALL into the BALL... Do you see the fallitious nature of this thinking? Or Here is a tree, try to cast the tree into the tree...

Rev 20:10 notes the Greek word AION which is MIStranslated "EVER"... and no matter HOW any FINITE man might and does, translate it as EVER, FOREVER, ETERNAL or EVERLASTING (which by the way AION is translated to, in various places), the translator names himself a LIAR for the concept of FOR EVER or ETERNITY, cannot be beheld by any FINITE entity, and is therefore MISUSED as a TERM, for the translator himself (whomever this might be), cannot BEHOLD that which he proposes the word to mean...

AION is also translated "WORLD" in the NT... which is it -- BW? "FOREVER", or "WORLD"? It appears in Matt 28:20 in which CHRIST in His OWN SPEECH, notes to the Apostles that He shall be with them always, ...even unto the END of the ...WORLD [aion]...

This denotes that an "AION" whatever it really is, ...can and DOES have AN END, for CHRIST only spoke the words of TRUTH... and denotes in this verse that AION has an END... Disqualifying it from meaning either "FOREVER" or "ETERNAL"...

The ETERNAL preceeded time, and will EXCEED time... TIME is a temporal entity which is limited by a BEGINNING and an END... (first day, last day)

GOD did not impose FINITE mental ability on us, and then expect us to employ TERMINOLOGY which we could not BEHOLD, for He calls unto us: "Come now and let us REASON together saith YHVH" -- Isaiah 1:18

He could not expect "REASONING" together as an accomplishable request, unless that which we had to REASON WITH, was within our capability to COMPREHEND and UNDERSTAND... For example, ...you cannot REASON math with a 5yr old, using CALCULUS terminology, simply because the 5yr old does not have the ability to COMPREHEND those terms... and thus your "REASONING" with him shall fail, accordingly.

AION is a MEASUREMENT of TIME... TIME was not a part of ETERNITY, for it had a BEGINNING (first day) Gen 1:5 and shall have an END (last day)-- John 6:44, 54 -- 12:48

To impose the observation of Rev 20:10 as a LINEAR notation, means that the TORMENT within it, can only occur IN TIME... For if it is truly ETERNAL, then those named in it have ALWAYS BEEN TORMENTED, Are Tormented, and Always WILL BE Tormented... which is NOT the case with Humanity... For any portion which finds NO "Torment", disqualifies the "Torment" from being ETERNAL... For ETERNAL means without interruption, ALWAYS being as it IS...

Jesus warns all to avoid hell at all cost; yet, people continue to mock its need, obfuscate its duration, or deny its reality in hopes eternal is not true. Who is right - Jesus or men?

JESUS did not "warn" anyone of an ETERNAL place called HELL -- for one, He never used the term HELL which is an ENGLISH term... He used the term GEHENNA ...and on the (VERY) FEW times He mentioned GEHENNA (only on 4 occasions in approx 3.5 YEARS)... He was speaking FIGURATIVELY (parabolically), and denoted the PLACE of SHAME, well known to the JEWISH culture as GEHENNA... a place where DEAD (not living) bodies were SHAMED... The JEWS found burial a SACRED event... and the LAST desire of a devout JEW was to end up in GEHENNA, the place of SHAME...

Matt 18:8 --- Mark 9:43 He was sent to the LOST SHEEP of ISRAEL ONLY! In this dialogue, He instructed them to POKE out their eyes, or cut off hands and feet... Do you take this LITERALLY as well? If so, are you one-eye, one-handed or one footed BW? Or maybe NO EYED, HANDED or FOOTED? Of course you are not... for if we took these literally, we ALL could potentially end up without sight or limbs...

Mark 9:43 is in the context that notes that EVERY ONE shall be salted with FIRE... (vs 49) EVERY ONE includes ALL... you and I included...

Also note in Revelations it lays out the principle that it is one's own torment that does the tormenting. This fits these principles within the bible, what a person sows they'll reap as well as God rending each one according to their deeds; therefore, your or anyone's revulsion of God being a happy torturer is scripturally unfound as well as unsound.

REVULSION of God as a "HAPPY TORTURER" is unfound and unsound? Listen to yourself my friend! Quite the OPPOSITE is true...

This is a pretty SICK picture that you have of LOVE and its doings bro... To give God (who is LOVE)... a reputation of "HAPPY TORTURER", is to group Him with such as the DERANGED mind of HITLER... who enjoyed tormenting the PEOPLE of GOD... Here you have GOD doing the very same THING!!! And you salute this thinking?

We are UNABLE to REPENT unless the GOODNESS of GOD, ...leads us... to it -- Rom 2:4 ...or,

to BELIEVE unless the FAITH to do so is AUTHORED by CHRIST in us to do so -- Heb 12:2 ...or

to COME to CHRIST unless the FATHER decides to DRAG us to Him -- John 6:44...

Yet YOU would name us the "authors" and "perpetrators" of our own TORMENT... when the WORD says otherwise: Rom 9:18... failing to see that SALVATION, REPENTENCE, FAITH, and HARDENING are ALL rooted in the hand of the POTTER... not the CLAY...

Skipping to the end of your post:

Final Note on Universalism:

Universalist claim that God cannot torture and are repulsed by the notion that God could ever be a happy torturer. However, some Universalist proceeds to make the claim that God tortures with fire in a small pond until a person is purged of sin. Then everyone eventually enters heaven loving God.

It cracks me up how those who know nothing of Universalism, come to their "concrete" conclusions about it...

Some of those who believe in the SOUND and TRUE Biblical teaching of the SALVATION of ALL MEN... still have a "foot" in the mud of Orthodox fallacy... but that number is diminishing... I have conversed with many recently which are losing this empty and ILLOGICAL foolishness which still seeks to keep its claws within their hearts...

GOD is LOVE... when will people get a grip on this FACT?

Tell me honestly BW, ...What example of PURE and completely devoted LOVE have YOU ever witnessed (or exerienced yourself), TORTURING its object in any way? Come on! Call upon your Savior to remove the scales from your eyes... and SEE!

I have a new grandson (10th & final one)... and there is absolutely NO WAY that MY LOVE for him would EVER allow another to TORTURE him, let alone ME do it, myself!

Don't know your experience BW... but if you are honest (and I shall assume you are)... you have NOT ever observed a DEVOTED and LOVING person, consciously and purposely TORTURING the one they LOVE... it just does not happen. GOD gave us things in life as examples of things in the SPIRIT, ...especially LOVE... for it is WHO and WHAT He ...IS...

A person that LOVES another, NEVER seeks harm to that one... on the contrary, even finds FORGIVENESS when that one lets him down or offends him...

How can God, who cannot torture — torture people until they love him? That is illogical as it denies God of his own justice. It also makes the work of the Cross pointless as all can eventually be forced to love God by means of fire. Universalism actually denies the purpose of the cross altogether because Christ would have died in vain if all get it by means of a little purging torture to make them love God.

GOD has brought countless human beings to their KNEES and NOT a ONE of them were ever FORCED ...OR "tortured"... When GOD reveals Himself to you and in the same moment of the process REVEALS you to YOURSELF... then to the KNEES do you fall... and upon your LIPS comes the confession...

It is almost unbelieveable to me, that you have FORGOTTEN how it actually works... GOD never FORCED or TORTURED you BW... and He shall do NEITHER to anyone else... He came to you at one point in your life, and showed to you WHO and WHAT you are, and in that moment, revealed WHO and WHAT HE IS... and to your knees you fell, and on your lips was the word "LORD"...

Because the teaching of ALL SAVED, does not agree with your THEOLOGY, you make the determination that SAVING ALL denies the work of the CROSS... how blind is this deduction... when the WORD plainly notes in several places that CHRIST died FOR ALL!

Thinking it took His death on the cross to SAVE FEW, but the purpose of the cross is removed if ALL are SAVED? ...Listen to yourself! That GOD has involved MEN in the work of SALVATION still requires HIM to work THROUGH them to accomplish it... and in the end, it is NOT the preachers, it is NOT the teachers, it is NOT the elders, that bring the Children to the CROSS... It is GOD USING them as TOOLS, that makes it happen...

I am a pro guitarist... and have played for over 40 years... and NONE of my guitars have EVER played a single NOTE... not ONE! Every note, good or bad, has been played BY ME! GOD uses His (human) instruments in the very SAME WAY!

In the quote above, you are saying that the PURPOSE of the CROSS is other than what the WORD says it is... however:

the WORD says that GOD so LOVED the WORLD -- John 3:16, ...and

the WORD says that CHRIST tasted death for EVERY MAN -- Heb 2:9, ...and

the WORD says that CHRIST is a RANSOM for ALL to be testified in DUE TIME -- 1 Tim 2:6, ...and

the WORD says that JESUS took AWAY the SIN of the WORLD -- John 1:29, ...and

the WORD says that HE is the SAVIOR of ALL -- 1 Tim 4:10, ...and

the WORD says that EVERY knee shall bow and tongue CONFESS that He is LORD -- Phil 2:10-11, ...and

the WORD says JESUS is the SAVIOR of the WORLD -- 1 John 4:14...

There is nothing more to say... If you have not yet seen the TRUTH after reading this, then it is just not your time to see it...

...willieH

[B. W.]

Comment regarding post…

Next "proof" text.…Isaiah 45:21-25…Isaiah 55:11…

Hi Bavarian,

First off, I am not using a proof text method at all but rather demonstrating biblical principles instead.

This form of logic may seem foreign but its purpose is to cause a person to think on his/her own concerning a subject with the intent and prayer that the Holy Spirit illuminates the truth to such a seeker.

Jesus used this method as well as illustrated in the gospels themselves. He even had shown the disciples how the scriptures testify of Him. Theses were not a series of proof text strung together but included how he is revealed in the Old Testament in various ways proving who and what he really is.

The Bible speaks of this method as well:

Proverbs 1:5-6, “Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance, 6 to understand a proverb and a saying, the words of the wise and their riddles (2420 Strong's)."

Ecc 12:11, “The words of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings; they are given by one Shepherd.”

Psalms 78:2, “I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings (2420 Strong's) from of old…”

The word translated Dark Sayings in Psalms 78:2 and Proverbs 1:6 use of Riddle means the following things: a riddle, difficult question, parable, enigmatic saying or question, perplexing saying or question, an enigma (to be guessed).

These reveal bible truths and principles about who the Lord is and what he is like as well as may various things. They are to engage thought and lead one to the Lord.

So do not think I am using a proof text method and then attack the proof text as you are attempting to do. What are the principles being revealed about the Lord?

Example -- Question: If wrath remains on a person and as well as the Lord's curse is on the house of the wicked (Proverbs 3:33-35), and then whatever God does endures forever, His counsel will stand, He performs his word (Isaiah 55:11, Isaiah 45:21-25) then how can God's wrath remain on a person who ceases to exist?

Isaiah 45:17, “But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.” KJV

Please note that the word translated Confounded (3637 in Strong's) means the following: Insulted, shamed, humiliated, be ashamed, be put to shame, be reproached, be put to confusion, be humiliated.

Therefore read the verse again: Isaiah 45:17, “But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded (insulted, shamed, humiliated, be ashamed, be put to shame, be reproached, be put to confusion, be humiliated) world without end.” KJV

Remember we have been grafted into Israel as well (Note: Romans 11:17 and Romans 9:6, 25-26, 32). The Isaiah verse applies to all saved by grace through faith as well. So those not saved, from the force of the pure logic of the text indicates that those rejecting salvation will be ashamed, confounded, insulted, shamed, humiliated, be ashamed, be put to shame, be reproached, be put to confusion, be humiliated world without end forever and ever.

This indicates the principle of cognition after death as well as what the torment / punishment consist of for those rejecting salvation. This builds to what Jesus reveals about the last judgment in Matthew 25:46 as well as what everlasting punishment consists of. In fact, Daniel confirms this in Daniel 12:2-3 (See Below):

“2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame (reproach, scorn, scolding, disparagement) and everlasting contempt ( aversion, abhorrence, repugnance, abomination). 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.”

Isaiah 45 verses 17, 22-25 indeed reveals truths profound! Please take the time to read these verses again.

So, is it any wonder Jesus warned us to avoid such a Hell at all cost? And for that you loathe what I wrote that uses similar enigmatic sayings and questions as He?

Lastly regarding this:

B.W.'s proof texts:

I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him.

Eternal death endures forever...no where does this text say the fires of Hell will burn continually forever. No where does this text mention the continual pain and agony in the fires of hell into eternity.

Did you not read the context of Ecc 3: 11-22 which deals with eternity, life and death, Judgment after death which determines is one is found beast like or made righteous by God's hand? Yes, verse 14 has everything to do with revealing what happens after death. As for everlasting fires Jesus warns of these in Matthew 25:41, Mark 9:22-43 and then regarding the future and final sentencing Revelations 19:20 and Rev 20:11-15, and Rev 21:8).

Ecc 12:11, “The words of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings; they are given by one Shepherd.”
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[B. W.]

Hi willieH,

Please read what I wrote to Bavarian as it answers you too.

Also, please do not lift scripture out of context as you have done. I seldom use a proof text model as you do. I stick with biblical themes and principles that engage thought. All I ask is for you to think on your own and not regurgitate rote arguments that have been already been answered. This has been tried before. Research this Board as well as this Thread and you'll find the answers to your argument that rest solely on what man thinks is best for man...

And remember Jesus speaks of Sheep and goats...The bible speaks of those who are the Lord's and those who belong to the devil and darkness. Two sets of people saved and unsaved.

Yes, God Loves us enough to respect His gifts to us and not allow sin to infect the new heavens and earth. Love sentences those who love sin to reside in its fruit and not annihilate them as He reneges not on the gift of life he gave Humanity. His Love warns and pleads to us all to return to him even foreknowing not all will. Love still warns of the dangers to come to turn one away from the path they are on.

God's love is not at all like our own so your comparisons that reduce God's love to the same level as human love is not wise. God's love governs his Justice and His Justice guides His Love. His Love will grant the desires and intents of ones heart and if it is for sin — Love confines that one to an eternal life sentence reaping what they have sown as that is what they desire more than the life God offers with him.

These principles are within the Bible and all throughout it. I'll let you discover these on your own...

Psalms 96:10, "Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns! Yes, the world is established; it shall never be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity (evenness, fairness, uprightness, straightness, equity, rightly)."


Have a Best Day!
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[CuriousBob]

Jlay said,

Well I have underestimated Bob. Good post

Thanks, Jlay!

Jlay said,

Bob, I have oft found myself wrestling with and trying to reconcile the bible to my own mind. In every case it has only ended in frutstration. Why? because my thoughts are NOT His thoughts. The frustrations you are experiencing are similar to my own past experiences. I can say without question, that it was my thoughts that were the problem and not the scirpture.
If you are determined to reconcile a fair God with the bible then I am afraid you will only be met with frustration. I read the scripture you provided and failed to see how it relates to this issue. We need transformed minds.

Is this an admission that sound thinking cannot be applied to Scripture any more than it can be applied to the Quran?

Using the same line of reasoning as you do, it would be just as fair for me to say that my thoughts are not Allah's (i.e., Satan's) thoughts.

To my mind, your reasoning renders Christian apologetics just as useful or useless as Islamic apologetics happens to be. You seem to be speaking just like cultists and other narrow-minded people do, because you are emotionally involved.
Jlay said,

Are justice and fairness the same?
No. Let's suppose that you get caught speeding doing 110 through a school zone. The penalty is a $1,000 fine or 3 days in jail. Someone you don't even know pays the fine for you. Is this fair? No, but justice is satisfied and you are free to go.

If you were intending to prove your point with that analogy, I am afraid you have failed miserably to do so. I fail to see how it proves your point.

You see, it all depends on whether or not the person who paid your fine for you wanted to do it for you or was not forced to do it. If that person wanted to do it for you or was not forced to do it for you, then it would have been perfectly fair for him or her or it would have been within his or her God-given right to do so and for whatever reason he or she may have had for doing so. The only one who might suggest otherwise, I dare say, would be an unreasonable individual.

Jlay said,

So many want to focus on the unfairness of hell, yet in doing so miss the real message of unmerited favor.

But you seem to be missing the point that the Bible's "unmerited favor" is necessary only because the Bible's God refuses to grant any request to be eternally annihilated or anesthetized or you seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that the Bible's "unmerited favor" is necessary only because the Bible's unsaved ones have no other choice but to, upon their rejection of that "unmerited favor" and after their final judgment, enter into and remain, throughout all eternity, in a state of agony, pain, or misery, to some degree or other.

[jlay]

Me thinks you make too much of the analogy.

Analogies aren't perfect. When anyone tries to read beyond the basic intent of an analogy they miss the basic underlying truth. The only point of the analogy is to demonstrate that justice and fairness are not the same. Although similar, they are different and for important reasons. Also we must understand that one's concept of fairness may be different from anothers.

Is this an admission that sound thinking cannot be applied to Scripture any more than it can be applied to the Quran?

Perhaps I should have been more clear. Because that is not at all what I am saying. When I speak of trying to reconcile the bible to my mind. I don't mean that sound thinking is not appropriate. Although we must accept the caveat that God's ways and thoughts are above our thoughts. That there are mysteries that we are incapable of fully grasping. In this instance I am not talking about sound thinking, but selfish desires. I know there are many times where I was convinced I was right, sound, and logical, only to find out later that I was not. And that often times I may be convinced in my mind I am being rational, but in reality I am being influenced by selfish desires and misconceptions. What if I am under the misrepresentation that God owes me something? Would this not change my ideas of fairness. Or, what if I have failed to grasp the slightest notion of holiness; could this in turn distort my understanding of fairness?

the fact that the Bible's "unmerited favor" is necessary only because the Bible's unsaved ones have no other choice but to, upon their rejection of that "unmerited favor" and after their final judgment, enter into and remain, throughout all eternity, in a state of agony, pain, or misery, to some degree or other.

I understand your objection, I just don't agree with it. Because choices are limited, and consequences exist fails to convince me in the least. I may not like the idea that if I step off a ten story building the law of gravity will take affect and I will pay the consequence of violating this law. I certainly won't consider it fair, but it is just desert. I can complain that it is not fair, and that I should have the option of being able to fly, but that doesn't make it a reasonable argument.

[CuriousBob]

Jlay said,

The only point of the analogy is to demonstrate that justice and fairness are not the same.

Well then! Since you put it that way, after thinking about it in its entire context, I have begun to see where you are coming from. I am certainly going to think about that one, 'cause I never saw it in that way before now. Thank you for the insight!

The Lord of hosts may very well be using you to help me find my way out of this terrible dilemma after all. Maybe it wasn't a matter of you missing the point so much as it might have been me. Please accept my apologies for thinking otherwise, if it turns out that I was wrong all along.

I understand your objection, I just don't agree with it. Because choices are limited, and consequences exist fails to convince me in the least. I may not like the idea that if I step off a ten story building the law of gravity will take affect and I will pay the consequence of violating this law. I certainly won't consider it fair, but it is just desert. I can complain that it is not fair, and that I should have the option of being able to fly, but that doesn't make it a reasonable argument.

Today I was thinking along these same lines: Nature is both kind and cruel and in that way reflects God on a finite scale. But maybe I shouldn't be associating cruel with fairness. I don't know! I want to know more before I commit myself to any conclusion on this matter. I hope this is leading me to the explanation I am looking for. I will write more later. I must sleep on it and continue to pray about it. Also, I earnestly covet your prayers for me on this important issue.

[B. W.]

Warning Long Post - Food For thought:

Jlay made a good point at the beginning of this thread on page one regarding the need to begin to grasp the nature and character of God. I'll add to this by stating that one must look at all attributes of his character and nature found within the bible, seek him in prayer with your questions, and understand that no part of his character are independent of each other. They are to be taken in as a whole as each part of his character reveals a little more of God.

The bible is plain. It reveals the nature and very character of God. It is by his nature and character that one must measure their doctrine against in order to see if it be true or not. Using a set of proof text strung together maybe good to use in some cases but it is not the final yard stick to determine what truth is.

That is why one must also use basic principles contained in the bible that help describe the nature and character of the Lord Almighty. Therefore, it is wise to gauge doctorial truth against who God is, not by proof text methods alone.

For example, Universalism and Annihilationism only looks at God's love and lifts this love out of context to appease the thoughts of men (by men I am including women too — enough of PC ). Annihilationism also mistakenly assumes God will annihilate into non-being unredeemed sinners because for God it is a logical act of mercy to exterminate rather than to incarcerate forever.

Do these honestly measure up against who God is? Let's see:

What we all should do is compile scriptures which begin to reveal God's character and nature. This will help understanding but keep in mind God will remain incomprehensible. You'll only gain a small glimpse. This is something the Lord wants his people to do — know the Lord.

I'll begin:

Job 37:23-24, “The Almighty--we cannot find him; he is great in power; justice and abundant righteousness he will not violate. 24 Therefore men fear him; he does not regard any who are wise in their own conceit." ESV

It is part of God's character and nature never to violate his justice, righteousness, etc and etc.

Deu 32:3-4, “For I will proclaim the name of the LORD; ascribe greatness to our God! 4 "The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.” ESV

God's work is perfect and all his ways are based on justice. The Lord is faithful which means we will not renege of any gift, word, or promise. He can be counted on. The Almighty is without iniquity because he is absolutely just and upright in all things.

Job 34:10-12, "Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong. 11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him. 12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.” ESV

God cannot do wickedly nor do any wrong and will never pervert justice. He is so upright that he renders to humanity according to their ways. How can rending to ones ways be fulfill if they non-exist? This is brought out in the following verse:

Col 3:24, “…knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. 25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.” ESV

God shows no partiality because he judges in righteous judgment. The Lord commutes justice to people as they ought to be judged; according to their character and what they deserve. No judgment of God will be contrary to their character or partial. It will be perfect and devoid of wickedness or iniquity on God's part as the Lord cannot do these things. He will never pervert justice. God judges fairly and without partiality.

2 Ch 19:7, “Now then, let the fear of the LORD be upon you. Be careful what you do, for there is no injustice with the LORD our God, or partiality or taking bribes." ESV

Psalms 98:9, “…before the LORD, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity.” ESV

Rom 2:11, “For God shows no partiality.”

In other words — His justice is fair and fairness is found within his justice! This is contrary to how we human beings think. We have a habit of thinking of justice is limited to judicial acts and commuting of sentence. Not so with God. God's justice weighs everything without partiality and contains absolute fairness.

Next:

Rom 11:29, “…For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”

Isa 55:11, “…so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.”

Isa 46:10. “…declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose…”

Psa 33:11, “The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.”

God's gifts and callings are irreversible. God will keep his word and changes not. God is faithful and remains faithful to his word, promises, callings, gifts. He has a plan and his counsel will stand and endure even to future generations if one failed as did the people of the Exodus.

In other words, these attributes of his nature and character (and there are more) define his great love and mercy as well. One cannot use the sentimentality of love alone to describe God's character, to do so, neglects what defines and makes the Almighty's love absolutely pure and how corrupt ours have become enslaved to selfishness.

Please feel free to post more of God's character as revealed in the bible such as mercy and love and grace as well as his wrath, anger, and what he hates. For now, I'll look at this statement found in Romans 2:11, “For God shows no partiality.”

God shows no partiality

Eph 2:3, “…among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”

Ephesians lays out the principle that all of humanity are by their nature children of wrath (meaning deserving the wrath of God and not his mercy).

Rom 1:18, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth…”

In other words God shows no partiality. In his sovereign right he has the right to exterminate all of humankind into a non-being state. This is brought out in Genesis 6:5-7 as well as Elihu's statements in the book of Job:

Job 34:14-15, 21-23, “…If he should set his heart to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath, 15 all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust… 21 For his eyes are on the ways of a man, and he sees all his steps 22 There is no gloom or deep darkness where evildoers may hide themselves. 23 For God has no need to consider a man further, that he should go before God in judgment.”

Yet, ask yourself, if God said nothing to Adam and Eve after the fall but remained silent would that prove God just, merciful, loving, exercising fair justice, match any and all attributes of his character?

The Lord has that right but due to who he is and him remaining true to himself God called out to Adam and Eve. Since that call, he continues to call to all humanity's progeny to return to him. This call provides us all choice when before there was none proving that God judges with equity and is not partial.

He even foreknows all our responses to his very call before we were ever born but still calls to all proving he his faithful to none other than himself. From this he can shape and fashion each as he so sovereignly wills. God will not pervert justice and does no wrong because he is all knowing, all powerful, all wise. He is the initiator of choice to the children of wrath when without him there world be none.

Job 36:10-13, “He opens their ears to instruction and commands that they return from iniquity. 11 If they listen and serve him, they complete their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasantness. 12 But if they do not listen, they perish by the sword and die without knowledge.”

God, because he is just and fair and does no wrong. He clothed Adam and Eve and was fair to them as well by sending them out into the world they chose over his ways — world corrupted by sin. He even promised that he would come and crush the serpent's head at a future time so he can fulfill his promises of Genesis 1 and 2 to future generations. He proves he is fair and just by not exterminating humanity by permitting us a choice to return to him or be brought into a state of eternal ruination. God is righteous in all his ways and judges with equity.

Job 36:18, “Beware lest wrath entice you into scoffing, and let not the greatness of the ransom turn you aside.”

Since if all humanity are children of wrath God still provided a ransom. We really deserve no ransom because our sins are against God and his character always attempting to manipulate and bend these towards ones own advantage. Yet God provided a ransom nevertheless. His justice is fair - if one does not want that ransom, he gives, renders, to them according to their deeds. If one accepts - he transforms them into a new creation in Christ. What does this reveal about God's character?

If God did exterminate into a non-being state of non-existence the Almighty would be demonstrating partiality. God being who he is not partial and He offered Jesus Christ — the Word — his call to humanity to return to him and his ways. Would not the Almighty be partial by obliterating all without any offer to return to him? God shows no partiality.

God also reneges on no gifts and always keeps his promise, and word. He said to Adam and Eve be fruitful, subdue the earth, multiply, take care of his creation on earth. He breathed the breath of life into humanity and creates from nothing living beings in the womb. Life is his gift and his calling is for us to take care of it. With life comes responsibilities as well and the use of reason and intelligence to give things a name and to create. God is not Partial. He gave reason and intelligence to create and name and take care of things...

If God destroyed any into non-being obliteration then it is proved beyond all reasonable doubt that he is unable to keep his word and shows partiality. Either he must destroy all humanity (Genesis 6, Job 34:14) or offer a call which creates a choice for humanity so he proves himself true to no one other than himself that he is not partial as well as faithful to keep his word and honor his gifts and all that he is. Oh the wisdom of God is greater than the wisdom of men!

How can he honor life by obliterating it into non-existence? We as mortals fail to see the eternal. Our mortal being will die and from this we think death is sleep or non-being. It is not. What God does regarding placing eternity in the heart of humanity endures forever just as Ecclesiastes 3:11-22 tells us. Therefore we do continue on after we die. This is consistent with God honoring and keeping his word and reneging on the true gift of life.

When mortal dies we enter into judgment with God and some are shut up in prison awaiting the final verdict from God. Others heard God's call and returned to him. God shows no partiality because he chose to call to all (not obliterate) which creates a choice to return to his ways or perish in sin. He renders to a person their ways. If they reject him, he rejects them. Fair is fair.

Isa 24:22, “And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the dungeon, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be punished.” JPS

Mortalness dies but life continues on because it is God's ways not ours due to him proving what he says about himself is true. He shows not wickedness and his justice is just for all.

Annihilationism makes God deny his Character as well as proves he is unable to keep his word, unable to give, as well as proves he shows partiality because he gives life to some and to others he annihilates into non-being. The only way around partiality would be to offer choice to humanity as this proves God is just in all his ways and that he judges without partiality the result of his own call on a person's heart.

This way some persons will fulfill God's need in the age to come (Rev 21,22) while others will be cast away from the presence of the Lord forever as that is what they desire. The Lord renders to us accord to our deeds and grants the desire of the heart. Never forget the Lord test the heart and renders what is just.

So a place of containment was fashioned by the Lord by which he proves that he honors the life he gives to those who do not want him. The Lord judges with equity. To annihilate into non-being (not the killing of the flesh to bring one before God's judgment) is in actuality a type of cosmic abortion proving God is not a God of the living but rather a denier of his own character and nature as the Lord of life — A God of the living.

Universalism denies the gravity of sin and how a little leaven leavens the whole lump. It also makes God show partiality to sinful human beings by permitting them all into heaven without honoring the justice of choice to them. It manipulates God by telling him he can't dare punish sinners because he is to loving for that.

Sin manipulates God and his laws so that a person attempts to entrap God at his own word so one becomes a god over God. We all do this everyday. There is no sin less equal to another. The sin of murder is the same as stealing a candy bar. Both only take seconds to commit. Should punishment last a mere second?

The idea that there are degrees of sin and therefore a need for sin's punishment to fit the crime does not consider that a little sin leavens the whole lump. It is a cancer that needs to be removed and contain so it no longer spreads. Sin is toward God alone and seeks to nullify his ways and exalt humanities own ways over God's. It seeks to take over.

God shows no partiality. All his ways are justice. He is perfect in all his ways. No gift will he renege on. God is not an exterminator of life into non-being as that is contrary to who he is. He will slay mortal life to bring people into just judgment but annihilation into non-being would prove God is not God capable of keeping his own word and promises.

Instead he fashioned a place for the devil and his followers for eternity. Will you fault God for honoring life — his gift of life he gave in the most perfect and absolute manner and ways?

Job 34:17, Shall one who hates justice govern? Will you condemn him who is righteous and mighty..."

Annihilationism and Universalism, while appealing to mankind, in reality is an attempt to manipulate God's mercy and love to get people off the hook and overlook ones own sin. It is appealing to think one will never suffer in the afterlife for eternity. Such thinking attempts to make God deny himself and who he is. In other words - God's knees bow to us. What deceitful Sin!

I pray that anyone reading this who adheres to Annihilationism or Universalism see the depths of their sin and its attempts at manipulating a Holy God to bow his knees to the doctrine of men.

Listen carefully to Elihu's words to Job:

Job 33:23-33, “If there be for him an angel, a mediator, one of the thousand, to declare to man what is right for him, 24 and he is merciful to him, and says, 'Deliver him from going down into the pit; I have found a ransom; 25 let his flesh become fresh with youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor' 26 then man prays to God, and he accepts him; he sees his face with a shout of joy, and he restores to man his righteousness.

27 He sings before men and says: 'I sinned and perverted what was right, and it was not repaid to me. 28 He has redeemed my soul from going down into the pit, and my life shall look upon the light.'

29 "Behold, God does all these things, twice, three times, with a man, 30 to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life. 31 Pay attention, O Job, listen to me; be silent, and I will speak. 32 If you have any words, answer me; speak, for I desire to justify you. 33 If not, listen to me; be silent, and I will teach you wisdom."

All Scriptures not cited are from the ESV

Copyright Note:
By
B. W. Melvin
Author of - A Land Unknown Hell's Dominion
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[CuriousBob]

B.W.,

I appreciate long posts like yours. They have the potential of revealing more of the poster's position than shorter ones do and in less time.

For this reason, I may take a lot more than a day or two to prepare a thoughtful reply to every point you have espoused.

There is one thing about your post that I want to bring to your attention, though. It is that it seems to contradict what Jlay was saying about the distinction between fairness and justice, a distinction that may have taken loonger to dawn on me than it would have to dawn on the average man (a term that, in this and any synonymous context, I prefer to use when referring to mankind or the whole human race).

Would you care to explain?

[CuriousBob]

Jlay,

After thinking about it some more, I must admit that I don't know what to make of the suggestion that justice and fairness are not the same. I still do not yet see how you can be as confident as you seem to be in the idea that God, as He is portrayed in "The Good Book", is either absolutely just or entirely fair or both.

I sincerely wish I had your confidence in the the God of the Bible. But, as it stands, your arguments for that God seem a lot like con jobs or smoke and mirrors to me. They don't make the kind of sense to me as they seem to make to you. They make my head spin or confuse me at best. I don't like that. I need your confidence.

Also we must understand that one's concept of fairness may be different from anothers.

I believe that, if only because sound thinkers have a different concept than unsound thinkers do of fairness. But I also believe that each sound thinker has the same concept as every other sound thinker does of fairness.

I believe that no sound thinker would think it unfair to support a community that catered to his and every other sound thinker's way of life or culture. I also believe that no sound thinker would seriously oppose defending that community by any and every means possible.

It still seems to me that your answers continue to dodge the issue. HELP ME PLEASE TO SEE IT MORE CLEARLY.

[CuriousBob]

B.W.,

Jlay made a good point at the beginning of this thread on page one regarding the need to begin to grasp the nature and character of God. I'll add to this by stating that one must look at all attributes of his character and nature found within the bible, seek him in prayer with your questions, and understand that no part of his character are independent of each other. They are to be taken in as a whole as each part of his character reveals a little more of God.

Why does that statement remind me of the Scripture about the potter and the clay or the "Might is right" cliche that I believe was inspired by Darwin's "Survival of the Fittest" philosophy?

It certainly appears to support the suggestion that since God has all might He must be all right, without regard for any other form of reasoning that may prove Him wrong.

[jlay]

Very true. I mean who are we? Cracked pots.

[CuriousBob]

Jlay,

Very true. I mean who are we? Cracked pots.

But, in effect, does that not send us all the very clear message that all the gods who claim to have all might must all be right? If so, then who are you or I to say that the one we worship is superior to or any different from the one whom Muslims, for instance, worship, since both the Christian Yahweh and the Muslim Allah make the same claim and since each insists that, ultimately, it is his might, not his right-thinking, that makes him right?

Muhammad's god (Allah) claims to be the Almighty God to the same extent that the Christian Yahweh does, though my careful research makes it quite obvious to me that trying to compare Allah with Yahweh is like trying to compare Yahweh with Satan? But that claim is the ultimate argument that settles all disputes among Muslims when it comes to determining for them who will escape the torments of hell or who will have the right to enter the gates of paradise. It becomes even more forceful when it is combined with the purely Islamic claim that Muhammad (the sex offender, child-molester, terrorist...that the texts that settle all dispute among Muslims have made him out to be) is God's ultimate emissary and example to mankind .

But your God's claim of being right because of His might happens to be the ultimate authority (or superior reasoning) that you have appealed to since you have discovered that, without it, you cannot resist my obviously sounder reasoning. Also, ultimately, that claim alone is how you consistently attempt to prove my reasoning wrong. You have obviously resorted to the tactics or mentality of ignorant and wishful thinkers, con-artists, liars, ventriloquists, bullies, emotionally disturbed children, stark raving mad lunatics, or terrorists.

I hope to God that you can prove me wrong. But, as it stands, your words are consistently making it more and more difficult for me to believe that your thinking is superior to mine. I need to have my confidence in Yahweh restored and strengthened. But the hope I am receiving from your words thus far, is rapidly disappearing.

Surely you and B.W. can reason better than you have been on this important matter or can you?

I thank my God that you don't resort to the tactics of stark raving mad lunatics or terrorists. But, so far, it appears as if you resort to all or most of the other erroneous tactics I just mentioned.

Muslims, on the other hand, because of the harshness of their most sacred theocratic or political doctrines, have consistently resorted to the tactics of all the ones I have just mentioned, at one time or another, and whenever they feel they have the might.

So, for all intents and purposes, I might venture to say that you fair precious-little better than Muslims when it comes to reasoning about God and the doctrine of eternal damnation.

With that thought in mind, I predict that as long as unreasonable people are allowed to acquire the might it takes to subdue or rule over others there will never be peace .

By the way, you, B.W., and the typical Christian fundamentalist keeps insisting that this life is a gift and that God has given or is offering a gift of eternall life to all of us. I have a couple of questions that can be phrased in several ways to make myself understood:

Apart from the "Might is Right" mentality, What makes you think that this life is a gift?

Apart from the "Might is Right" mentality, what good reason is there for me to believe that my birth was a gift from any conscious entity that might expect me to believe that I was nothing before I was born or that before I was born I had no consciousness to recognize, much less accept or reject, any gift from any conscious entity that might venture to give any gift to any other conscious entity?

Apart from the "Might is Right" mentality, why should I believe that this life is a gift when I wasn't there to receive it before I was able to recognize, accept, or reject it?

Apart from the "Might is Right" mentality, how can anything be a gift to an entity that does not exist to recognize or receive it?

Apart from the "Might is Right" mentality and assuming that I am a mere mortal creation that had no say in the matter of whether or not I should be born or no say in the matter of whether or not I should posses a will, why should I believe that the entity that created my consciousness out of no consciousness or out of His consciousness is offering a gift of pardon to me for doing what He designed me to do (i.e., excercise the will He placed within me to do as I please even though it may not be what He would do if He were in my shoes)?

Before I ask you the next question, I would like you to consider the following presuppostions (If you do not agree with any of them, please let me know):

At some point in the past, before anything else or anyone else (including nothingness) came into being, God is all there ever was in the immeasurable past.

This means that everything that exists now is made of Godstuff, God-substance, God-essence, and God-traits or what have you.

It means that apart from God, everything else and everyone else had a beginning.

It means that God is, always has been, and always will remain omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent.

It means that God will forever remain, if everything else and everyone else should ever disappear.

It means that, unless God causes it to exist it can never exist and unless He causes it to exist for eternity it can never exist for eternity.

It means that God has always existed and can never stop existing.

It means that from God came everything else and everyone else.

It means that nothing else and no one else can exist without God, who makes it possible for them to exist.

It means that God is the ultimate source of all wills, entities, powers, forces, knowledge, and wisdom apart from His own.

It also means that all that is and ever shall be must and always shall live and move and have its being in God.

Question: Apart from the "Might is Right" mentality, why would I want to believe that the God who matches the above description is not mean and cruel by nature or incosistent with Himself if He is, for any reason, willing to torture any of His creatures, for any length of time, let alone for eternity or why would I want to believe that God did not create me just so He could play His own game and pretend to give me gifts that He thinks I don't deserve?

[B. W.]

B.W.,...There is one thing about your post that I want to bring to your attention, though. It is that it seems to contradict what Jlay was saying about the distinction between fairness and justice, a distinction that may have taken loonger to dawn on me than it would have to dawn on the average man (a term that, in this and any synonymous context, I prefer to use when referring to mankind or the whole human race).

Would you care to explain?

These explain things well enough - the rest is up to you to uncover...

Isa 5:16, "But the LORD of hosts is exalted in justice, and the Holy God shows himself holy in righteousness."

Isa 30:18, "...For the LORD is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him."

Psa 98:9, "...before the LORD, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity."

Rom 2:5-8, "But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury..."
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[B. W.]

...Question: Apart from the "Might is Right" mentality, why would I want to believe that the God who matches the above description is not mean and cruel by nature or incosistent with Himself if He is, for any reason, willing to torture any of His creatures, for any length of time, let alone for eternity or why would I want to believe that God did not create me just so He could play His own game and pretend to give me gifts that He thinks I don't deserve?

You are still alive with a roof over your head, plenty of food to eat, and can even take time to write on this forum. God's grace has been good to you this life. He causes the rain to fall and sun shine on all.

Yet, are you not sticking him in the eye spoiling for a fight with him, telling him what to do that is acceptably correct for you? So is it your might that's right is what you are really saying? Maybe that attitude is what is separating you from finding the Lord?

Regarding All Religion Argument: There is only one road leading to my family farm. Try locating my family farm without directions by taking any road you wish. All roads, or paths, do not lead to the same end. Same with finding God.

John 14:6, “Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." ESV

What are you doing with his gift of life?

Looks like you are spoiling for a fight to make God bend his knee to you? With that attitude you expect to be honored with heaven or at the very least the peace of annihilation's oblivion?

Jer 17:10, "I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds." ESV

Ecc 3:18, "I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts..." ESV

So is humanity so pure and noble and God so mean and heartless by not standing by humanities nobleness? He gave us a gift of life and what do we do with it? For that, you expect God to let all in heaven?

Jer 17:9, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? " ESV
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