A few questions that have been bugging me...

[Sharna]

Hey everyone.
I am new here, and joined this forum through the amazing testimonies presented at God and Science.org
I hope you guys can help me answer this person's questions sufficiently. Thanks.

"there are entire websites dedicated to apparantly conflicting passages in the christian bible.
and you determine the validity of the claimed contradictions by.......reference to the bible. god can't be wrong, because he is perfect, therefore there must be something wrong with a/ the interpretation b/the translation c/the person stating it. d/any combination of the above.

prophesies? pah. no chance that jesus was aware of these prophesies, coming as he did from a priviliged background (no, not a carpenter. rich middle-class bloke. translation error, okay) and then acted in such a way as to fulfill them, even did a switcheroo on the cross? 16 billion people think so. they're called muslims. but they must be wrong, because your bible says so, right? (but the quran makes exactly the same claims as the bible about it being the word of god, full of prophesies, just about the same amount of tolerance for other religions, quite positive towards women, same god talking, btw) more on this below.

all very open to opinion. how many generations from david to jesus? one gospel gives 28, i think , another 34, or something other different number like that. (guess what? i never studied the bible. well, not the christian one, anyway)


infanticide: go kill all those kids from another country, but just the boys, do what you like with the girls

genocide:kill them for me because you are my chosen people and they are not

jealousy:you shall not worship false gods (all right, maybe he's insecure and likes a bit of affirmation and reassurance)

weird proxy stuff: how did mary get pregnant again?

obtuse commandments/double bind stuff: i made adam and eve,i told them not to sin, but i knew they would sin because i am onmipotent, however i let them sin because i knew the devil would trick them, so i will punish them. oh, and i love them, they are my children.

does any of that help locate these not so pleasant attributes of some people's christian god? sorry, i'm tired.
so, what happened to grumpy wrathful OT god? did he just change his mind and stop smiting? that would imply his previous actions were wrong, wouldn't it? but he's infallible, so...oh yeah, refer to a/b/c/ or d/ above.

okay this is how it looks to me...god knows everything, makes everything, makes a man and a lady from dust, they don't do what they are told, he punishes them for doing what he knew they would do and could have prevented them from doing, it all goes wrong, god gets angry and smites a whole lot, decides he's going to kill everyone, with a flood, changes his mind and just kills most things (including animals, except fishes and birds, who i guess he just felt like smiting) then he brightens up and he sends his son, who is also him, to be killed by the people he is saving. if they accept him taking their punishment (dispensed by god) for them, then they are saved, if not, then they will burn in hell forever, because god loves us. the only way to avoid gods punishment (for a crime that adam and eve...or perhaps our ancestors...did) is to believe in god. the only evidence for god is the bible, which tells us all about god, because he wrote it.sorry, told some people to write it. at the same time, innumerable other religions are telling us similar things, but they don't count because they say nasty things, but the nasty things our god did or said don't count because he says they don't, but the bad things the other religions say do count because he (or his ministers) says they do.


but this is all meaningless, to me, anyway. Mostly, the christian bible makes no sense to me at all. not even the good bits. any time you use the bible to convince me (and i'm not alone) of the veracity of the bible, it's self-referential logic that just makes my brain recoil in horror at an infinite loop of faith.

like this:

the bible is true> the bible says god exists>god exists>god says the bible is true>the bible is true> etc etc.

can you understand that?

it's similar to this:

a/the following statement(b) is true>b/the previous statement (a)is true, because it said this statement(b) is true> statement (a)is true>the following statement is true etc etc....

continued statement of truth, where it refers to itself, does not provide evidence, only repeated assertion.

if i assert that the great goddess ERIS, lady of chaos, created everything, and planted false evidence of all the other gods, just so we'd argue about them, because she like arguments, you can't refute it. i have a bible that tells me this. there are no valid contradictions in the principia discordia, no false prophesies, no unsound logic. in fact a heck of a lot more sound logic than you'll ever find in a christian bible. but it won't make sense to you. even if i offer arguments as compelling as those you believe you offer me, you won't get it. it has as much evidence, truth, honesty, and humour as your bible. just because i believe it wholeheartedly 23% of the time (when i'm not a taoist or an atheist) does not make it false 77% of the time. it is absolutely as true as the bible.

science, on the other hand, looks for evidence beyond supposition or assertion. it has discovered many things about the universe, and it would appear that some of the bible is inaccurate. (depending on your interpretation. if you choose to believe an interpretation of the bible that concurs with current scientific knowledge, apart from the existence of god, well, i guess that makes you pretty mainstream, not a creationist. cool. goodnight. "

[erawdrah]

Hey everyone.
I am new here, and joined this forum through the amazing testimonies presented at God and Science.org
I hope you guys can help me answer this person's questions sufficiently. Thanks.

"there are entire websites dedicated to apparantly conflicting passages in the christian bible.
and you determine the validity of the claimed contradictions by.......reference to the bible. god can't be wrong, because he is perfect, therefore there must be something wrong with a/ the interpretation b/the translation c/the person stating it. d/any combination of the above.

prophesies? pah. no chance that jesus was aware of these prophesies, coming as he did from a priviliged background (no, not a carpenter. rich middle-class bloke. translation error, okay) and then acted in such a way as to fulfill them, even did a switcheroo on the cross? 16 billion people think so. they're called muslims. but they must be wrong, because your bible says so, right? (but the quran makes exactly the same claims as the bible about it being the word of god, full of prophesies, just about the same amount of tolerance for other religions, quite positive towards women, same god talking, btw) more on this below.

In some cases Jesus did things to fulfill prophesies (Matthew 21:1-4), in other cases it was indirect to him being there (Luke 18:31-34). So yes the old testament was written before the new testament, and Jesus did things to fulfill the prophesies. But he also had things happen to him that wasn't because he sought them out to be fulfilled.

all very open to opinion. how many generations from david to jesus? one gospel gives 28, i think , another 34, or something other different number like that. (guess what? i never studied the bible. well, not the christian one, anyway)

The Lineage of Jesus in Matthew is the that of Joseph and the lineage of Jesus in Luke is that of Mary.

infanticide: go kill all those kids from another country, but just the boys, do what you like with the girls

genocide:kill them for me because you are my chosen people and they are not

jealousy:you shall not worship false gods (all right, maybe he's insecure and likes a bit of affirmation and reassurance)

I'm not sure what you are looking for here.

weird proxy stuff: how did mary get pregnant again?

Why wouldn't she be able to get pregnant again?

obtuse commandments/double bind stuff: i made adam and eve,i told them not to sin, but i knew they would sin because i am onmipotent, however i let them sin because i knew the devil would trick them, so i will punish them. oh, and i love them, they are my children.

Man had free choice. If he knew that they would sin and made them not to sin, then they would not have had free choice. If he would've just created Adam and Eve to not sin, then they would have been robots without thought. You have a choice to do anything you want in life. Some times those choices have consequences. Our law says do not murder. You can murder someone if you "want", but you will have to answer to the law. Did we make those laws to trick people into committing murder just to punish them? God does love us, that's why he went to the cross to save us from the punishment. Now it's your choice to accept that gift.

does any of that help locate these not so pleasant attributes of some people's christian god? sorry, i'm tired.
so, what happened to grumpy wrathful OT god? did he just change his mind and stop smiting? that would imply his previous actions were wrong, wouldn't it? but he's infallible, so...oh yeah, refer to a/b/c/ or d/ above.

okay this is how it looks to me...god knows everything, makes everything, makes a man and a lady from dust, they don't do what they are told, he punishes them for doing what he knew they would do and could have prevented them from doing, it all goes wrong, god gets angry and smites a whole lot, decides he's going to kill everyone, with a flood, changes his mind and just kills most things (including animals, except fishes and birds, who i guess he just felt like smiting) then he brightens up and he sends his son, who is also him, to be killed by the people he is saving. if they accept him taking their punishment (dispensed by god) for them, then they are saved, if not, then they will burn in hell forever, because god loves us. the only way to avoid gods punishment (for a crime that adam and eve...or perhaps our ancestors...did) is to believe in god. the only evidence for god is the bible, which tells us all about god, because he wrote it.sorry, told some people to write it. at the same time, innumerable other religions are telling us similar things, but they don't count because they say nasty things, but the nasty things our god did or said don't count because he says they don't, but the bad things the other religions say do count because he (or his ministers) says they do.

God was going to kill everything that he created. Except Noah found grace with God, now days is the time of grace. You, as did the people in Noah's time, have opportunity to avoid God's wrath. When he sent the flood, it killed creatures that breathed air, including birds. Even fish were killed in the flood. Noah took two of every "kind" of animal and seven of the "clean" animals, including birds, into the ark.

but this is all meaningless, to me, anyway. Mostly, the christian bible makes no sense to me at all. not even the good bits. any time you use the bible to convince me (and i'm not alone) of the veracity of the bible, it's self-referential logic that just makes my brain recoil in horror at an infinite loop of faith.

like this:

the bible is true> the bible says god exists>god exists>god says the bible is true>the bible is true> etc etc.

can you understand that?

it's similar to this:

a/the following statement(b) is true>b/the previous statement (a)is true, because it said this statement(b) is true> statement (a)is true>the following statement is true etc etc....

continued statement of truth, where it refers to itself, does not provide evidence, only repeated assertion.

Circular reasoning is never a proof for anything. It's kind of like, this bone is 200 million years old because we found it in this strata, and the strata is 200 million years old because we find these bones in it. Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth HIS HANDYWORK." Look at nature, look at the stars. See how everything works together? This is a testament to God not chance evolution.

if i assert that the great goddess ERIS, lady of chaos, created everything, and planted false evidence of all the other gods, just so we'd argue about them, because she like arguments, you can't refute it. i have a bible that tells me this. there are no valid contradictions in the principia discordia, no false prophesies, no unsound logic. in fact a heck of a lot more sound logic than you'll ever find in a christian bible. but it won't make sense to you. even if i offer arguments as compelling as those you believe you offer me, you won't get it. it has as much evidence, truth, honesty, and humour as your bible. just because i believe it wholeheartedly 23% of the time (when i'm not a Taoist or an atheist) does not make it false 77% of the time. it is absolutely as true as the bible.

science, on the other hand, looks for evidence beyond supposition or assertion. it has discovered many things about the universe, and it would appear that some of the bible is inaccurate. (depending on your interpretation. if you choose to believe an interpretation of the bible that concurs with current scientific knowledge, apart from the existence of god, well, i guess that makes you pretty mainstream, not a creationist. cool. goodnight. "

Science = knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method. Scientific Method = principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. Please list those things in which the Bible is inaccurate.

Thanks for your time, have a great day.

[Sharna]

Thanks! Here is there response.

Aren't you completely missing the point? [/rhetorical] Adam and Eve had absolutely no concept of Good and Evil, or of death, before they ate of the Forbidden Fruit - that is as close to Old Testament gospel as you're gonna get. Ergo, tellin them NOT to eat it because it is bad and would kill them has ZERO meaning. It's like telling a dog not to eat one SPECIFIC biscuit in its bowl because it will cause fatal stomach ulcers. The dog doesn't understand. Neither did Adam and Eve. If God was omniscient, which he is consistently described as being, then he knew that Adam and Eve lacked this understanding, just as he knew that they would sin.

And that's aside from the predeterminist issues of free will coexisting with an omniscient deity around.

[cslewislover]

Thanks! Here is their response.

Aren't you completely missing the point? [/rhetorical] Adam and Eve had absolutely no concept of Good and Evil, or of death, before they ate of the Forbidden Fruit - that is as close to Old Testament gospel as you're gonna get. Ergo, tellin them NOT to eat it because it is bad and would kill them has ZERO meaning. It's like telling a dog not to eat one SPECIFIC biscuit in its bowl because it will cause fatal stomach ulcers. The dog doesn't understand. Neither did Adam and Eve. If God was omniscient, which he is consistently described as being, then he knew that Adam and Eve lacked this understanding, just as he knew that they would sin.

And that's aside from the predeterminist issues of free will coexisting with an omniscient deity around.

. . . this response make it seem as though humans were like the animals before they ate that fruit. But humans were made in the image of God - they were different - and intelligent. What makes sense to me is that God was able to convey to Adam what death meant. Clearly, Eve understood its meaning since she was having a conversation with Satan about it. She didn't ask Satan what it meant.

[erawdrah]

Thanks! Here is there response.

Aren't you completely missing the point? [/rhetorical] Adam and Eve had absolutely no concept of Good and Evil, or of death, before they ate of the Forbidden Fruit - that is as close to Old Testament gospel as you're gonna get. Ergo, tellin them NOT to eat it because it is bad and would kill them has ZERO meaning. It's like telling a dog not to eat one SPECIFIC biscuit in its bowl because it will cause fatal stomach ulcers. The dog doesn't understand. Neither did Adam and Eve. If God was omniscient, which he is consistently described as being, then he knew that Adam and Eve lacked this understanding, just as he knew that they would sin.

And that's aside from the predeterminist issues of free will coexisting with an omniscient deity around.

She ate the fruit because it would make her as God. But that was a lie. If you tell your dog not to eat the blue biscuits, the dog will have no idea what you are saying. Their only rule was don't not eat of this tree, but the temptation of being "God" clouded her judgment. She made a choice to break the rules. He did not tell the animals not to eat of the tree, they were not given the ability to make a choice. They act on instinct or rather on the programming of God. God didn't walk in the cool evening with a deer or rabbit, he walked with Adam. He had conversations with Adam. How long do you think Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden before they sinned? My guess was around 100 years Genesis 5:3. We know that Adam and Eve didn't have children until they were kicked out of the garden. 100 years give or take is quite a long time not to know anything at all.

[B. W.]

Hey everyone.
I am new here, and joined this forum through the amazing testimonies presented at God and Science.org
I hope you guys can help me answer this person's questions sufficiently. Thanks.

Here is an idea - this person or persons please ask them to ask here on this forum thread so you do not have to be in the middle...
-
-
-

[Sharna]

Thanks for all the help guys! ^^ The debate is over now because the forum admin locked it...

You are all a real blessing