Taxes as tithes?

[NJSeeker]

I was speaking with someone who does not like the idea of giving too much to church or charity because this person feels that enough money goes to the poor, uneducated, and unhealthy through taxes. Since this is the first thing taken out of a paycheck would it be reasonable to think of it as "first fruits" and could count as charitable giving? My feeling is that it is taken and not given so it's not what God wants from us. But then there is so much less after taxes it gets hard to peel away one's hands from the remaining money. How do you come to terms with giving (or not) when your spouse isn't feeling the same call?

[cslewislover]

One of my former pastors talked briefly with a group of us about this. He said the issue of tithing could involve this, yes, since originally that was what part of the tithe was for - what we now do with our taxes. The fact that it is forced is something we don't have any control over, so . . . To me, it's up to each person to decide how much they will give and if they want to consider taxes a part of it.

As for our spouses, personally, I wouldn't try to force a spouse to go along with tithing. I would be quite upset if my spouse didn't want me to give any monies at all to my church or other Christian ministries/missions, but it would be bad to force that, in my view. In these situations, I know people that try and make up for it by giving of themselves more, of their time in helping others.

[jlay]

Tithing is an old covenant issue.

You won't find anything in the new testament regarding tithing. The disciples shared ALL they had.
Further, if you study tithing in the OT you will be quite surprised at what you find. You didn't give 10% of your money to the church.

I give 10% at my church. (I don't even want to call it a tithe) It started because I was in bondage to churchism and "the tithe" and didn't know better. I continue to give because I serve in children's ministry in this congregation and wish to support the ministries of this congregation.

Most people have not studied this issue. Many pastors mislead their congregations in regards to tithing. Paid ministry is the biggest problem if you ask me. Most money tithed through a church goes to pay for fixed costs (lights, water) and paid staff. Of course this is because such a low % of the congrgation tithes.

The church should be the one caring for the poor and needy. Not the government. The church should be the one educating children. I am for giving IF the church will step up and take the reigns. If all so called Christians gave 10% faithfully, we could end public education in this country by offering a private Christian education for free, or little cost. And, we could end virtually all government programs that support the poor. Do you think people would take notice of a church like this???

[ageofknowledge]

I have no problem with giving 10% of my income to my local church as a tithe. I also have no problem with full time ministry people being compensated for their service. That said, I think a person is free to choose whether they wish to give a tithe on the gross or the net as their conscience dictates.

[Cross.eyed]

I have had a problem with taxes/thithing for a long time.

The information I recieved many years ago was the Church through the decades turned over to the government
many of the charities the Church had maintained.
If this is true, then it seems the Church is responsible for a growing government that uses tax dollars
for any and everything it chooses to keep the powerful in power.

I give to faith based charities and thiths to the Church and I don't mind doing so, but what I don't like is for someone to tell
me I have to give to the Church whatever it demands in light of the responsibilities it has shirked.

Just my .02

[Jac3510]

Just my .02

Don't you mean, "Just my .1"???

Er . . . wait . . . depends on your tax bracket, doesn't it? If you are in the 25% bracket, then you could say just your .075. That's assuming you figure it exclusively. If you did it inclusively, it'd be more like .067, I think. Unless, of course, you figure them totally separately, you get your .1 still, but even then, you could consider it a tithe-credit, in which case, someone (I'm not sure who) owes you .15.

I think I confused myself.

[zoegirl]

....but really it does turn me

[jlay]

Man, I was really hoping for a more in-depth debate of this topic.

I remember the first time I was confronted with the reality that tithing is not a NT truth. So, many just assume it to be true. Preachers will teach right out of the old testament, that tithing is a biblical requirement, and that by tithing we can be blessed monatarily. Tithing is in fact a clinging on to the old ways, and a way to justify "holding" on to self. It really ate me up when this was presented too me. I'm still desiring to work through the issue and get to the truth of the matter.

I guess we could change the hymn from "I surrender all," to "I surrender 10% on Sunday mornings."

[ageofknowledge]

Man, I was really hoping for a more in-depth debate of this topic.

I remember the first time I was confronted with the reality that tithing is not a NT truth. So, many just assume it to be true. Preachers will teach right out of the old testament, that tithing is a biblical requirement, and that by tithing we can be blessed monatarily. Tithing is in fact a clinging on to the old ways, and a way to justify "holding" on to self. It really ate me up when this was presented too me. I'm still desiring to work through the issue and get to the truth of the matter.

I guess we could change the hymn from "I surrender all," to "I surrender 10% on Sunday mornings."

If you sell everything you have and donate it to the church, how will you then support yourself and your family. What will your children eat? Where will you live? How will you get to work? Jesus never commanded us to act like irresponsible fools. In fact, he taught good stewardship. We are to be wise as serpents but innocent as doves and provide for our families. Those are scriptural admonitions. Jesus taught allegorically on this issue but some legalistic people become confused and try to act that out literally in their flesh. Jesus no more meant for your to get rid of everything you have and wander the fields eating grass like a wild cow than he meant for you to pluck out your eye.

[Jac3510]

Man, I was really hoping for a more in-depth debate of this topic.

I'd be interested in seeing a poll on who actually thought tithing was still necessary. People like their rules, J. That whole "grace" thing ticks most people off (not that I'm speaking of anybody in particular). It goes along with that whole "we're no longer under the law" and "it is for freedom Christ has set you free" idea. For what it is worth, though, I agree with you.

BRUTHA!!!

fdit: why do we have a devil smiley but not an angel/halo smiley?!?

[zoegirl]

I don't think there is anything wrong with placing a percentage on tithing, in the budget, etc, as long as the heart remains clear of the legalism and open to changes (a need in the church prompting more, missions support, etc).

Ultimately, there IS no rule on it and it SHOULD be something that everything works out for themselves as God leads them.

This leads to a bigger question, perhaps....that of stewardship overall of our moeny, talents, and belongings. SOmebody can give their "10%" and still be a horrible steward, others can give only 5% or 30% and be great stewards of what God has given them. Age of knowledge has a great point that we hav to think overall of what God has given us, especially in light of being responsible for families.

[jlay]

They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. Acts 2: 42-47

If you sell everything you have and donate it to the church, how will you then support yourself and your family. What will your children eat? They would eat food. It doesn't say they sold everything, and gave it away to some "church". But that they shared all things and met each other's needs. It was community. Where will you live? In a home.How will you get to work? In a car.Jesus never commanded us to act like irresponsible fools. No he didn't. He also did not command us to act like money grubbing, ladder climbing, greedy isolationists.In fact, he taught good stewardship. Agree.We are to be wise as serpents but innocent as doves and provide for our families. You bet!Those are scriptural admonitions. Jesus taught allegorically on this issue but some legalistic people become confused and try to act that out literally in their flesh. Act what out? Do you mean his encoutner with the rich young ruler. This confrontation was not meant as living instructions. However there is a reason we call the book of Acts, "Acts of the Apostles."Jesus no more meant for your to get rid of everything you have and wander the fields eating grass like a wild cow than he meant for you to pluck out your eye.

Where did you get the notion that this what I am driving at? I'm talking about surrender. And not as one who has it all together. I'm talking about personel examination through the scriptures, versus living under traditional bondage and false doctrine.

[Cross.eyed]

Just my .02

Don't you mean, "Just my .1"???

Er . . . wait . . . depends on your tax bracket, doesn't it? If you are in the 25% bracket, then you could say just your .075. That's assuming you figure it exclusively. If you did it inclusively, it'd be more like .067, I think. Unless, of course, you figure them totally separately, you get your .1 still, but even then, you could consider it a tithe-credit, in which case, someone (I'm not sure who) owes you .15.

I think I confused myself.

I get your drift, but it seems what is left after taxes is more like .01

[ageofknowledge]

They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. Acts 2: 42-47

If you sell everything you have and donate it to the church, how will you then support yourself and your family. What will your children eat? They would eat food. It doesn't say they sold everything, and gave it away to some "church". But that they shared all things and met each other's needs. It was community. Where will you live? In a home.How will you get to work? In a car.Jesus never commanded us to act like irresponsible fools. No he didn't. He also did not command us to act like money grubbing, ladder climbing, greedy isolationists.In fact, he taught good stewardship. Agree.We are to be wise as serpents but innocent as doves and provide for our families. You bet!Those are scriptural admonitions. Jesus taught allegorically on this issue but some legalistic people become confused and try to act that out literally in their flesh. Act what out? Do you mean his encoutner with the rich young ruler. This confrontation was not meant as living instructions. However there is a reason we call the book of Acts, "Acts of the Apostles."Jesus no more meant for your to get rid of everything you have and wander the fields eating grass like a wild cow than he meant for you to pluck out your eye.

Where did you get the notion that this what I am driving at? I'm talking about surrender. And not as one who has it all together. I'm talking about personel examination through the scriptures, versus living under traditional bondage and false doctrine.

I'm sure your reasoning makes sense to you anyways.

[Jac3510]

I'm not sure what is hard to understand about his reasoning? He's talking about personal surrender to Christ and absolute commitment by the believing community to one another's welfare (an idea that's certainly never been picked up in western Christianity). One of the major problems I have with the "tithe" is that it makes people feel like they have "done their part." "I gave my 10%," they'll say. They've done God their weekly service and are free to use the other 90% on themselves. That's a stark contrast to early Christianity. In addition to Acts 2:42-47, which jlay quoted, I would ask you to consider Phil. 2:3-4-: "Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others [more important] than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others" (NIV, my translation change in bracket). This also goes along with a proper biblical understanding of James 2 "Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?" God is far more interested in helping hands than in praying lips. In fact, if I may quote an atheist on how to raise children to be good atheists:

• Get some hands-on, face-to-face charity in there. Show them how good it feels to help someone. Tell them this is the Atheist way (which is true) - hands that do are much better than lips that pray.
  
  On a related note, see if you can find people on TV who are praying instead of helping, and point it out.

“NJ Dave” is New Jersey State Director and Director for Youth and Families. Email him at N.J. Office of American Atheists.

All this to say, preachers who preach the tithe are missing the boat. If someone wants to give a set amount, fine. But that doesn't excuse them if a fellow believer--especially a fellow church member--is in financial need and they do nothing to help them (which, as we've seen from our passages, means a lot more than just saying a prayer with them).

Bottom line, j is right. We're not asked to surrender 10%. As the old hymn says, we're asked to surrender all. All to thee my Blessed Savior, I surrender all.