Speaking in tongues.

[ageofknowledge]

Ok jlay. Your last post is acceptable to me. I accept your position.

[jlay]

Thanks.

Praying for your physical and medical problems, btw. God bless.

[ageofknowledge]

Thank you very much. I am trusting God and appreciate the prayers.

[For_Narniaaa]

Well, Paul said that different gifts of the Spirit are given to different people. Tongues is one of those gifts. It's supposed to be used a sign to unblievers or could be a message from the Lord (with spiritual translation). I'm not sure this topic should be in "aberrant Christianity", in my personal opinion...

[TallMan]

I havn't read all the 8 pages of replies, but I pray in tongues daily.
I believe that the main purpose of it is personal prayer "praying in the Spirit":-
"we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Romans 8:26)

Like a parent, God knows better than his children, they should take him by the hand and let him lead them into more of his nature. This is beyond my understanding, but the Spirit has the words because he understyands all things:-

"as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him. But God has revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God. (1 Cor. 2:9-11)

"he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries . . . he edifies himself . . . if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also (1 Cor. 14v2, 4, 14-15)

"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding . ." (1 Cor. 14v18-19)
_ _ _ _ _ _

To people that think tongues was/is for preaching

In Acts 2 the Jews gathered in Jerusalem from other nations overheard the 120 Galilaean disciples speaking in tongues and recognised the languages as from where they came from, these were bi-lingual Jews.
Peter stood up, they stopped speaking in tongues, after he explained the gospel to the crowd in the common learned language they understood and took it back to many countries without anyone having to learn a new language to preach with!

So, the disciples were speaking in tongues before the others over-heard and even after they did, the crowd were left in doubt and confusion:-

"And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?" (Acts 2v12)

So, tongues was not an effective way of communicating to other people!

I believe teaching must fit all the scriptures on the subject, otherwise we have a confused mind behind them!

Please consider 1 Corinthians 14v2:-
"he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries"

An Analogy:
I am walking doewn the Champs Elyses in Paris and I over-hear two americans talking about their reltionship with someone. I will understand their words, but I would be wrong to asume they are talking to me, and the person they refer to remains a mystery to me.
_ _ _ _ _ _

To people that think that tongues is "just one of the gifts"
This is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 and refers specifically to the meetings-use, giving to the church of attributes that all Christians have for private use. The same passage also says:
“to one is given … the word of wisdom, to another the word of knowledge ... to another faith” (1 Corinthians12v8-10)
That's why it says “to one...” In meetings only one person should speak at once, to give a clear message from God and avoid confusion. It is precisely because all Christians have all these attributes that there needs to be limitation and order when they all meet.

If only some could speak in tongues, Paul would not have to reason with them not to all do so when they meet, the problem could never arise!

Also, no-one ever suggests that only some Christians get knowledge, wisdom and faith, yet these are in the same list as tongues!

[TallMan]

I had another experience of charismatic prayer last night and again it really freaked me out. There was people falling over, grunting - almost howling, wailing and tongues. I felt very uncomfortable and had to leave - which was probably a little bad as I was one of the organisers of the event.

Both myself and my wife was very confused after the event. Especially when we both felt that this really can't be how the Holy Spirit works. If it is? Then why are we feeling uncomfortable?

Silvertusk

Hi ST,
It is sad that the only exposure some people get to the Spirit is mis-use by "foolish virgins", but it comes as no surprise:-

"there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." (2 Peter 2v1-2)

The idea that the Holy Spirit makes takes people over is contrary to scripture:
"the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." (1 Cor. 14:32)
"the fruit of the Spirit is...temperence" (Galatians 5)

As you have been to a meeting such as this, and you intend to read a book that I believe "throws out the baby with the bath water", can I invite you to a meeting where the gifts of the Spirit are used in an orderly way, like the bible details in 1 Corinthians 11-14:-
Only one person speaking at once (apart from communal singing), bible-based talk (words of wisdom and knowledge), 2 or 3 gifts of tongues, each with interpretation, 2 or 3 prophecies as well as personal testimony, prayer for needs and friendly chat after . ."all things done decently and in order" (1 Cor. 14:40)

Many people have never been to a meeting like this!!
Even though God says:
"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." (1 Cor. 14:37)

[cslewislover]

There are two types of tongues, one of private prayer and one of public preaching or edification of the body. Indeed it/they are one of the gifts and not everyone has all the gifts (Paul said we should pray for all the gifts). It amazes me when I see this type of thing, that just because someone has a gift, then everyone should have it, and trying to use scripture to justify this argument. I have certain gifts and have had blessings, but I would not expect the Lord to make everyone be the same as me. No, God does not have favorites, but neither does He mold us (or use us) all the same. I would like to get into this further, but I can't right now.

[TallMan]

There are two types of tongues,

I believe it is mis-leading to say this, rather there are 2 uses of the same ability.

The main use is personal private prayer, then there is the meetings-use, "the gift of tongues", 2 or 3 per meeting, each followed by a gift of interpretation.

So, like all my brothers & sisters, I pray in tongues privately, but, in a meeting, I may or may not receive a gift of tongues.
The same can be said of the other attributes listed - knowledge, wisdom, faith, discerning etc.

As Paul said:
"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: (a crass & boastfiul thing to say if only some could speak in tongues!!)
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding . ." (1 Cor. 14v18-19)

one of private prayer and one of public preaching or edification of the body.

Tongues is not and never was for preaching top people, as I explained above.

Indeed it/they are one of the gifts and not everyone has all the gifts (Paul said we should pray for all the gifts). It amazes me when I see this type of thing, that just because someone has a gift, then everyone should have it, and trying to use scripture to justify this argument. I have certain gifts and have had blessings, but I would not expect the Lord to make everyone be the same as me. No, God does not have favorites, but neither does He mold us (or use us) all the same. I would like to get into this further, but I can't right now.

So can one receive Jesus and not have his mind, heart, power or other attribute?

No, he bible says "all" were filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues - Jew and Gentile. All receive all, the perfect message.

Much doubt and confusion is caused when people take "the gifts" passage as referring to what different Christians get at conversion.

[Zašto?]

So is speaking in tongues something that you have control over or not?
(for example: someone once told me that you just start babeling nonsense and once you start babeling the Holy Spirit will take over)
Is that true?
I thought the whole speaking in tongues thing was to bring non-believers to Christ?
If so then how could mindless babel bring others to Christ?
If anything it would probably repel them.

[jlay]

The question is not whether tongues is real, but what are/is tongues. Are tongues babbling, "wannabuyahonda"? That is not what happened on Pentecost.

What happened there was God reaching out to those seeking the Kingdom of God. Who was in Jerusalem that day? Jews of the dispersion. Jews who had returned to celebrate the feast and were seeking God, expecting God to do something. And God did.

I thought the whole speaking in tongues thing was to bring non-believers to Christ?

Not in this case. This was to bring beleivers (in the one true God) to saving knowledge of the Messiah. God sent Israel's Messiah and 3,000 came to a saving faith that day. The act of Tongues was a manifestation to those Jews from various nations. An obvious sign that God was doing something. And so Peter had their undevided attention. The focus was not the gift, but the giver. This was "A" way that God manifested himself. Not "THE" way.

There were also mockers. Likely, they were Jews who lived year round in Jerusalem. The same that Jesus encountered many times. They knew something was going on, but their unbelief and hardened hearts kept them from experiencing the good news.

I often wonder what Paul is referencing when he mentions tongues in his epistles. It is obviously something different than what happened on the day of Pentecost. And I struggle to see how one can come to a clear understanding considering the limited information we are given in the letters.

The divisive part are those who make the gift the issue, and not the giver. Those who say that tongues is the only sign that one can show they are a true beleiver.

[Zašto?]

Those who say that tongues is the only sign that one can show they are a true beleiver

Lets say someone says "hey lets go speak in tongues", and they do,would that be considered a true case of tongues?

[cslewislover]

From: https://www.rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx?id=45942

Does the Holy Spirit always manifest His presence in a believer through the ability to "speak in tongues"?

Speaking in tongues doesn't always accompany the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2 gives no indication that the converts on the Day of Pentecost spoke in tongues. Moreover, the apostle Paul explicitly declared that not all speak in tongues, any more than all are called to be apostles, prophets, or miracle workers ( 1 Corinthians 12:30 ).

Through nearly 20 centuries of church history, the tongues phenomenon played a very minor role among orthodox Christians,but it suddenly and spectacularly burst on the scene early in the 20th century. Most people who call themselves Pentecostals view tongues-speaking as an indispensable sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Many charismatics do not see it as essential. Some view it as a gift to be exercised publicly; others consider it a private prayer language. Some churches try to follow Paul's rules for public tongues-speaking ( 1 Corinthians 14:26-40 ), while others pay little attention to them.

RBC Ministries neither denounces nor advocates tongues-speaking. We don't claim to have absolute biblical or historical evidence that it ceased with the apostles, nor do we imply that present-day tongues-speaking by Christians is sinister or demonic. However, we also have good reason for believing that it was not a major gift during the apostolic era and that it is unlikely to be one today. As we observe the modern tongues phenomena, we see no evidence of miraculous speech in foreign languages as occurred at Pentecost ( Acts 2:1-18 ). In fact, in spite of considerable research and the availability of modern technology, we aren't aware of even one incident of miraculous tongues that has been tape-recorded or corroborated by unbiased testimony. Besides, many evangelicals who once "spoke in tongues" now think that their tongues-speaking was psychologically induced. Another troubling factor is that ecstatic tongues-speaking as practiced by Christians seems to be similar to that found in some non-Christian religious groups. It certainly is an area where self-deception can easily occur.

We respect and love our Christian friends who are convinced that they genuinely speak in tongues. Many of them offer abundant testimony of genuine commitment to Christ. We hope that they won't take offense at our conscientious attempt to evaluate the biblical evidence on this subject, just as we aren't offended when they defend their own view.

Dan Vander Lugt

A much longer treatment can be found in this online pdf booklet: http://rbc.org/uploadedFiles/Bible_Stud ... ongues.pdf

[TallMan]

Acts 2 gives no indication that the converts on the Day of Pentecost spoke in tongues.

In all my years of talking to people about the bible I have never seen such a bare-faced lie!!

Moreover, the apostle Paul explicitly declared that not all speak in tongues, any more than all are called to be apostles, prophets, or miracle workers ( 1 Corinthians 12:30 ).

This point has already been dealt with, you have made no attempt to respond to the points I typed out ... it seems that all you have done is copy and paste what you want to believe, regardless.

[cslewislover]

Acts 2 gives no indication that the converts on the Day of Pentecost spoke in tongues.

In all my years of talking to people about the bible I have never seen such a bare-faced lie!!

Moreover, the apostle Paul explicitly declared that not all speak in tongues, any more than all are called to be apostles, prophets, or miracle workers ( 1 Corinthians 12:30 ).

This point has already been dealt with, you have made no attempt to respond to the points I typed out ... it seems that all you have done is copy and paste what you want to believe, regardless.

Tallman, I didn't write these, and I haven't copied and pasted anything. You seem to be the one doing this. I wrote a paragraph first, then I provided a short article and link - that's it. I will study where you got these from . . . I'm wondering if you misquoted (rewrote) from the article to come up with your first quote here.

* * *

OK, so the second quote is directly from that article I provided (by Dan Vander Lugt). The first quote is not a quote at all, unless I'm missing something. I think you are referring to: "As we observe the modern tongues phenomena, we see no evidence of miraculous speech in foreign languages as occurred at Pentecost ( Acts 2:1-18 )."

As for your second issue, no, it has not been dealt with. I do want to respond to your points, but I don't post or do research for this site everyday. Again, I have not copied and pasted anything in my above two posts, so I would say that you should be more careful in how you respond to posters. If you haven't read the discussion guidelines, it would be good to do so: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... hp?f=1&t=4

[Zašto?]

Ah Confusion!