Struggling with lust

[cslewislover]

You ask what is wrong with becoming aroused, but if you become aroused outside of marriage, it will most likely lead to masturbation or sex outside of marriage.

Well said; however what if it doesnt? See, it is the obvious thing to say, but i push the line by saying what if it doesnt... i really want to know WHAT is it that makes something evil.

Thanks. M, you seem like you're asking how far you can go without getting punished, lol. I think you may have some learning by experience in your future. Jesus talks about being responsible for what we know, which you basically bring up here:

For example: if taking a drug/medicine/seeing a person/whatever makes you more angry, unfriendly etc then it is wise to abstain from that thing. E.g. if one KNOWS he would act aggressive if drunk, then he should not drink to such a stage. If one KNOWS being next to his gf would result in masturbation, then he should abstain. Agreed.

So then I'm back to wondering why you're asking in the first place . . . If the arousal leads to just thinking of the sex act with someone, when you're not supposed to be doing it with that person, then it's a sin. It's hard for me to imagine that it wouldn't, but again, experience may be a factor here.

I also read, as far as masturbation goes, that the Catholic Church allows a woman to do this if her husband isn't bringing her to orgasm during sex--their reasoning was that it was indeed helpful in getting pregnant. So masturbation is OK if it makes one more fertile . . . one could perhaps run with that. I'm sorry I don't have the link to the page where I read this.

And that you are being serious here? wow. Well thats probably some anticatholic site going on ancient sex ethics.

Yes, and no no no. It was talking about a recent thing. You said yourself that masturbation is considered a sin by the church. But this was saying that the church doesn't view this instance of it as a sin. If I find the link, I'll let you know. I think maybe you don't know what I'm talking about, really, but I'm not going to explain it more here.

Hm thats absurd however. Dont think it holds true. And yes; what i'm referring to is asking the non-catholic view/opinion. I know masturbation and contraception in catholic view are mortal sins - but the book i read says these have been based off wrong conclusions from St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas. THat others have moved forward but western church remained there...

???? So are you saying what the Catholic church espouses is wrong?

Now suppose - if friend X's arm/leg touching me would arouse me but friend Y's would not, then would it be totally OK to allow friend Y to touch me (comfort, friendship, closeness etc) but not friend X, all just on the basis of being aroused or not?

Where's Jiminy Cricket when you need him?

[zoegirl]

Now suppose - if friend X's arm/leg touching me would arouse me but friend Y's would not, then would it be totally OK to allow friend Y to touch me (comfort, friendship, closeness etc) but not friend X, all just on the basis of being aroused or not?

I think scripture shows pretty easilty the response. Two examples:

When Joseph was approached by Pharoahs wife (and no doubt he was aroused, why would he not be?), he ran away and left his outer garment. He RAN AWAY. He didn't sit there and ponder what her intent was or whether his arousal was sin. He knew, bottom line, that he shouldn't be there and let the interation continue. This isn't about how far we can go this is abut keeping ourselves from behavior that will lead us astray.

Paul in his letters writes: "FLEE sexual immorality"...not, gee, let's give it some time and wait and see what appens.

I think it would be perfectly fine to be very cautious with how much body interactions. To be honest, I think there is a trend among young women to be much more touchy feely with their entire body (lounging, leaning, indescriminate sitting) with boys who aren't involved in a relationship. A lot of this is probably simply a need to be affectionate, women are driven more by touch and this is probably seen in young women who seek affection. But boys/young men need to be extra cautious with this. And young women shouldn't be this free with the physical affection. Ultimately this is about caring for the other person.

But bottom line, the scripture doesn't play around with this. It says pretty strongly to keep yourslves pure and free from temptation.

[madscientist]

I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." ESV

Yes... well i never really understood this. Is JC speaking of ANY people, or is He saying that those who believe are forgiven? there is another list of people; it includes thieves, etc etc- basically, i believe every one of us fits this category. Is He saying that when we believe we are excused from these things (forgiven) but those who don't believe ARE at least one of these, and as we are at least one of these then that's the reason we can't inherit kingdom of heaven?
But yes i see your point. See, i know sexual immorality is a sin; that's not what i'm after. I'm asking where one draws the line.

Are you and your GF afraid of mariage? Do you and she want to sped the rest of your lives together through all lifes storms and growing old? If not, then is she really your Girl friend or just an object to get each other off on? If that is the case - then that is sexual immorality...

And yes, I may give an impression i'm someone who sits around with his gf and female friends and gratifies at their body touching. No. First, I have no gf. Second, I'm not saying I do experience this often or it happens to me exceptionally. In school etc I seen my classmates doing all sorts of things, and i got none - while they sat on each other's laps etc, a girl who everyone went after gave a massage to other people but never asked me. I can say with 100% certainty they must've been aroused as hell when she was sitting on them and touching them. And other worse things. I know atleast some of these are immoral. I could feel that sex, making out with strangers "for the fun of it", feeling each other up etc were immoralities. Basically they were both enjoying it. I never experienced any of that; i felt bad... not for the sexual stuff, but also for the touches etc. My classmates etc would hug etc (not sexual!) etc but if u get none u feel bad. As i was far from mainstream and popular, they had "fun" etc while i was out. Others surely know what i'm saying. Now, some of these touches were purely for friendship etc and some were for arousal and "immoral". Putting your hand in a girl's pants or bottom or the near areas is crossing the line i'd say. Similarly, throwing a pen and waiting for a girl or even teacher to bend down and look at their ass-crack is not pure, I'd say - my classmates HAVE done that; i havent seen it as they were in other class but i heard about it. That surely produces arousal and is not really building on any friendship. But, if a female friend leans on you for comfort, etc, and you do get aroused as a by-product; then is THAT sinful? That's basically what i'm going after.... May look like yes; I'm however being very specific. Not what she intends, not what you look after. Whether they byproduct of touching makes one aroused; whether that must be stopped even if it could mean the other person would feel we want to be more distant (closeness = friendship) and would be bad for the relationship. There are different people... some go closer, some not. If we happen to be near someone who likes to touch, and when we move away (indeed, this IS what i been doing years ago - when someone would touch me, i just ran away (not to stop arousal, just felt they went too close) and maybe that is why in high school classmates werent affectionate to me as i would stay away from hugs, touches and the like. This wasnt to stop arousal (there wasn't any), but just this is as it was.
And yes, i am aware looking at naked people for getting aroused, looking under skirts and all that is "immoral" as it only brings arousal to us. But i bet nakedness within marriage is ok.
What i distinguish is, if some other person does something for comfort or as zoegirl said, women liketo be affectionate. If they don't intend to doit for their own arousal or the other person's - then whether that is sinful. Or, imagine you tell to the person who arouses you that she should stop; she asks why - what do you say? Saying "because it arouses me" would be an awfully embarrassing thing to say, really!! I am aware that there is a line; that people often do cross this.

When Joseph was approached by Pharoahs wife (and no doubt he was aroused, why would he not be?), he ran away and left his outer garment. He RAN AWAY.

Hmm where is this? How do we know that it was arousal? He didnt have to be. Of course it was taboo, and i accept that (though many would not be afraid to say it nowadays straight forward)...

If the arousal leads to just thinking of the sex act with someone, when you're not supposed to be doing it with that person, then it's a sin. It's hard for me to imagine that it wouldn't, but again, experience may be a factor here.

Exactly! im asking IF IT DOESN'T. I know this may seem stupid etc, but thats all im asking... im being very specific. People give answers about immorality etc. I know that's wrong. I'm simply asking, whether it's wrong, if it arouses us, BUT doesn't make us lust or masturbate or any of that... if u wana call it experience, go ahead. Some lust after people they may never have; others have some every day and nothing... honestly, i want sex with no-one right now. Honestly. She could be hot, whatever. I'd say no. That doesn't mean i wouldn't like if she (no-one specific, just a nice girl...) put her legs on me etc. If she came "close" to me.
And often, i noticed what is arousing is not touching etc; often it is just the IDEA that a person we go after likes us. I bet if the girl u like but cant have her etc starts talking to you even without touching you etc that would make some aroused... Now, is it sinful to talk to someone if it arouses you!? Look at it that way. Talking or allowing them to lean over you/touch you... is often similar, brings in closeness, shows someone likes us etc. Or even, if a girl u thought she didnt notice you, and all of a sudden she smiles at you, i bet that could make some aroused. I think it would be silly to flee from her; how then should we expect to start a relationship with a girl who likes us? If everytime our heartbeat goes up and we feel "lost" in that mix of hormones, endorphins and dopamine etc (and sometimes even sexual arousal) we have to stop, then how could we actually meet the right person for us!?? SOmetimes, all this arousal can be bad and result in lust; I believe there are cases when it may not.

Basically, I see getting aroused and wanting sex are related, but can be differentiated. I like some girls as friends; I may like some as a potential gf but i would not want sex with her... see the difference?

I think maybe you don't know what I'm talking about, really, but I'm not going to explain it more here.

Yes i do well i think see!? And then you ask

???? So are you saying what the Catholic church espouses is wrong?

Honestly, this is one of the most pathetic arguments... As i said, i'm catholic but it doesnt mean i dont go beyond and dont see beauty in other ideas or doctrines. The book im reading gives a new perspective on sex ethics. I think, that if one allows woman to masturbate to increase fertility, a man can watch porn before to have greater sperm count. He can have two hour foreplay; do other things considered immoral. That goes against the Church i say. If masturbation is INTRINSICALLY evil then it means it shouldn't be done under any circumstances. Not if it could save you; make you happy; make you lose sexual tension; it is simply evil in itself. If one brings in an exception, then I can bring in a thousand more and say it's also ok if one wants to lose weight, etc. Besides the fact it's healthy and doctors say we should do it. That it's good toincrease heartbeat, helps sleep etc. I been sleepless. A female friend told me to have sex that that'll help me. I knew i could masturbate to sleep better but... intrinsically evil. I'd say the lustful ideas are bad; not if you rub your organ and think of mountains and lakes Hence, I don't do much for my health... why!? Because it's intrinsically evil; then, i cannot sin gravely to win a few extra days of longer life, dopamine etc. We know sex is healthy and so is masturbation; but if Church forbids it let it be - i dont wana risk my eternity for gaining a few health bonuses.

Anyway, sorry to all if i wasnt clear enough what i was asking... or if it is annoying... i'm being quite specific, with many assumptions.