Mary Queen of Heaven
Another doctrine many Protestants object to is that Mary is the Queen of Heaven. So what Biblical justification is there for this?
Rev 12: 1-5: A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven; an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
I received this from a website Alanna hipped me to. The problem that I have is that this scripture is not refering to Mary but to Israel. I respect Mary but she gets no worship service from me.
Mary Queen of Heaven
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Poetic_Soul
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That same article also says:
The main two interpretations some peaople try to use:
"1. The Woman in this Passage represents the Church. The twelve stars are the twelve Apostles.
2. The Woman represents Israel. The stars are the twelve tribes.
BOTH INTERPRETATIONS SUFFER FROM SEVERAL MAJOR FLAWS.
1st. If the Woman is taken to represent the Church, then we face the immediate paradox of the Church giving birth to Jesus! This is clearly nonsense.
2nd If the Woman is taken as Israel, we have an exalted Israel. Yet Israel was not exalted at the time of Jesus's birth. Most of Israel was astray.
3rd. Neither interpretation is a simple, literal reading of the text. If Protestant scholars have agreed on one thing it is that we must look for the clear, obvious interpretation of a bible text. Who is the woman who gave birth to Jesus? Jesus's Mother. Simple.
4th. Both alternative interpretations are contextually wrong. For all the other figures in this passage represent individuals, not ideas or classes of people. The Child is clearly Jesus, the Dragon is clearly Satan, each star swept out of the sky is one of the rebel angels who followed Satan. Later in the passage, we find Michael and his angels, and also the Beast - the Antichrist. The Woman is the only figure in the passage who, according to some, is not the individual stated in the text, but a collective representation.
5th. Conversely, when Israel, Christians or the Church appear elsewhere in Revelation, they do not appear as personifications. They appear in literal form, as groups of individuals. See Rev 7.4: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel; Rev 7.9: ..a great multitude that no-one could count...; Rev 12.17: ..the rest of her offspring - those who obey God's commandments.... Even where the Church appears as the Bride of Christ, and a female personification would be expected, we do not get one. Instead of appearing as a woman, the Church appears as a City - the new Jerusalem. Rev 21: 9-10.
6th. If there is any doubt as to what a symbolic personage in Revelation might represent, or if a veiled meaning is intended, that meaning is immediately explained in the text. The Lamb is defined as the Lord of Lords, the Dragon is Satan. The Heads of the Beast are Kings. However no such explanation is given with respect to the Woman, underlining that the obvious meaning is the one that is intended.
7th. If we look at the reference to the Sun, Moon and Stars in this passage, we can compare it with Joseph's dream in Genesis, which so angered his brothers. In the dream the Sun, Moon and Stars represented his father, Isaac, his mother, and his eleven brothers. Together with Joseph, this gives us the total of 12 stars which appear in the Revelation vision. Since Joseph and his brothers were the forebears of Israel, the Sun, Moon and stars can indeed be taken to represent Israel. BUT in Revelation the Sun, Moon and Stars are not the subjects of the Vision. They instead form the adornments of the woman. This indicates that although the Woman is linked with Israel, she is quite clearly NOT Israel.
8th. The Woman of Revelation 12 is introduced as a great sign in Heaven. Where else in the bible can we see a Woman announced as a great sign. Look at Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son." We can see that this is exactly the same sign as in Revelation 12, confirming that the Woman in both occurences is Mary."
The main two interpretations some peaople try to use:
"1. The Woman in this Passage represents the Church. The twelve stars are the twelve Apostles.
2. The Woman represents Israel. The stars are the twelve tribes.
BOTH INTERPRETATIONS SUFFER FROM SEVERAL MAJOR FLAWS.
1st. If the Woman is taken to represent the Church, then we face the immediate paradox of the Church giving birth to Jesus! This is clearly nonsense.
2nd If the Woman is taken as Israel, we have an exalted Israel. Yet Israel was not exalted at the time of Jesus's birth. Most of Israel was astray.
3rd. Neither interpretation is a simple, literal reading of the text. If Protestant scholars have agreed on one thing it is that we must look for the clear, obvious interpretation of a bible text. Who is the woman who gave birth to Jesus? Jesus's Mother. Simple.
4th. Both alternative interpretations are contextually wrong. For all the other figures in this passage represent individuals, not ideas or classes of people. The Child is clearly Jesus, the Dragon is clearly Satan, each star swept out of the sky is one of the rebel angels who followed Satan. Later in the passage, we find Michael and his angels, and also the Beast - the Antichrist. The Woman is the only figure in the passage who, according to some, is not the individual stated in the text, but a collective representation.
5th. Conversely, when Israel, Christians or the Church appear elsewhere in Revelation, they do not appear as personifications. They appear in literal form, as groups of individuals. See Rev 7.4: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel; Rev 7.9: ..a great multitude that no-one could count...; Rev 12.17: ..the rest of her offspring - those who obey God's commandments.... Even where the Church appears as the Bride of Christ, and a female personification would be expected, we do not get one. Instead of appearing as a woman, the Church appears as a City - the new Jerusalem. Rev 21: 9-10.
6th. If there is any doubt as to what a symbolic personage in Revelation might represent, or if a veiled meaning is intended, that meaning is immediately explained in the text. The Lamb is defined as the Lord of Lords, the Dragon is Satan. The Heads of the Beast are Kings. However no such explanation is given with respect to the Woman, underlining that the obvious meaning is the one that is intended.
7th. If we look at the reference to the Sun, Moon and Stars in this passage, we can compare it with Joseph's dream in Genesis, which so angered his brothers. In the dream the Sun, Moon and Stars represented his father, Isaac, his mother, and his eleven brothers. Together with Joseph, this gives us the total of 12 stars which appear in the Revelation vision. Since Joseph and his brothers were the forebears of Israel, the Sun, Moon and stars can indeed be taken to represent Israel. BUT in Revelation the Sun, Moon and Stars are not the subjects of the Vision. They instead form the adornments of the woman. This indicates that although the Woman is linked with Israel, she is quite clearly NOT Israel.
8th. The Woman of Revelation 12 is introduced as a great sign in Heaven. Where else in the bible can we see a Woman announced as a great sign. Look at Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son." We can see that this is exactly the same sign as in Revelation 12, confirming that the Woman in both occurences is Mary."
Last edited by Alanna on Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Poetic_Soul
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1st. If the Woman is taken to represent the Church, then we face the immediate paradox of the Church giving birth to Jesus! This is clearly nonsense.
2nd If the Woman is taken as Israel, we have an exalted Israel. Yet Israel was not exalted at the time of Jesus's birth. Most of Israel was astray.
You must realize that in the end times, God will gather Israel together again. This will be the remnant of Israel escaping the wrath of satan.
In the Book of Daniel an Angel of God is revealing the Mystery of the End Times to Daniel while he is a captive in Babylon. In the following passage, the Angel explains that the Antichrist will enter Israel and other nations:
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon (Daniel 11:41 KJV)
Edom, Moab and Ammon are all in Jordan ... these areas must escape the Antichrist so that Israel can flee to Edom (Petra/Bozrah is in Edom) where she escapes during the last 1/2 of the Tribulation (times = 2 years, time = 1 year and 1/2 time = 1/2 year ... total = 3.5 years):
14 And to the Woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the Serpent (Revelation 12:14 KJV)
To go even deeper into the matter, how do you explain Joseph's dream? Being that he is one of the 12 stars that which describes in Revelations. ISRAEL IS THE WOMAN and THE 12 STARS REPRESENTS THE TRIBES.
1Now Jacob lived in the land where his father had sojourned, in the land of Canaan.
2These are the records of the generations of Jacob. Joseph, when seventeen years of age, was pasturing the flock with his brothers while he was still a youth, along with the sons of Bilhah and the sons of Zilpah, his father's wives And Joseph brought back a bad report about them to their father.
3Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his sons, because he was the son of his old age; and he made him a varicolored tunic.
4His brothers saw that their father loved him more than all his brothers; and so they hated him and could not speak to him on friendly terms.
5Then Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him even more.
6He said to them, "Please listen to this dream which I have had;
7for behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf rose up and also stood erect; and behold, your sheaves gathered around and bowed down to my sheaf."
8Then his brothers said to him, "Are you actually going to reign over us? Or are you really going to rule over us?" So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words.
9Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, "Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."
10He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?"
2nd If the Woman is taken as Israel, we have an exalted Israel. Yet Israel was not exalted at the time of Jesus's birth. Most of Israel was astray.
You must realize that in the end times, God will gather Israel together again. This will be the remnant of Israel escaping the wrath of satan.
In the Book of Daniel an Angel of God is revealing the Mystery of the End Times to Daniel while he is a captive in Babylon. In the following passage, the Angel explains that the Antichrist will enter Israel and other nations:
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon (Daniel 11:41 KJV)
Edom, Moab and Ammon are all in Jordan ... these areas must escape the Antichrist so that Israel can flee to Edom (Petra/Bozrah is in Edom) where she escapes during the last 1/2 of the Tribulation (times = 2 years, time = 1 year and 1/2 time = 1/2 year ... total = 3.5 years):
14 And to the Woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the Serpent (Revelation 12:14 KJV)
To go even deeper into the matter, how do you explain Joseph's dream? Being that he is one of the 12 stars that which describes in Revelations. ISRAEL IS THE WOMAN and THE 12 STARS REPRESENTS THE TRIBES.
1Now Jacob lived in the land where his father had sojourned, in the land of Canaan.
2These are the records of the generations of Jacob. Joseph, when seventeen years of age, was pasturing the flock with his brothers while he was still a youth, along with the sons of Bilhah and the sons of Zilpah, his father's wives And Joseph brought back a bad report about them to their father.
3Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his sons, because he was the son of his old age; and he made him a varicolored tunic.
4His brothers saw that their father loved him more than all his brothers; and so they hated him and could not speak to him on friendly terms.
5Then Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him even more.
6He said to them, "Please listen to this dream which I have had;
7for behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf rose up and also stood erect; and behold, your sheaves gathered around and bowed down to my sheaf."
8Then his brothers said to him, "Are you actually going to reign over us? Or are you really going to rule over us?" So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words.
9Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, "Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."
10He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?"
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AttentionKMartShoppers
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Well, my response to the original theme of this thread:
Mary was a blessed woman, allowed to have Jesus, end of story. She was a human, one of God's children, so why would God, the Creator of the universe, put someone else in authority in heaven with Him? Jesus is at His right hand, but nobody is mentioned at the left (unless my memory has failed me, then oops).
Mary was a blessed woman, allowed to have Jesus, end of story. She was a human, one of God's children, so why would God, the Creator of the universe, put someone else in authority in heaven with Him? Jesus is at His right hand, but nobody is mentioned at the left (unless my memory has failed me, then oops).
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."
He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin
-Winston Churchill
An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.
You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous
He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin
-Winston Churchill
An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.
You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous
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August
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Why would Mary be holy, but not anyone else in Jesus's genealogy?
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."
//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."
//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com
A link explaining Mary's queenship: http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya6.htm
Last edited by Alanna on Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Poetic_Soul
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Of the four titles Pius XII gave for her Queenship, we notice that two are closely parallel to those of Jesus:
(1) He is king by nature, as God; she is Queen by "divine relationship" that is, by being the Mother of God. In fact her relation to her Son is greater than that of ordinary Mothers of Kings. For she is the Mother of Him who is King by very nature, from all eternity, and the relationship is exclusive, for He had no human father. Still further, the ordinary queen-mother gives birth to a child who later will become king. The son of Mary is, as we said, eternally king, by His very nature. (2) He is king by right of conquest. She too is Queen by right of conquest. We already saw that this title for Him means that He redeemed us from the captivity of satan. She shared in the struggle and victory. Since the Pope expressed her dependence on Him in a threefold way--something we would have known anyway--then it is clear that he did not have in mind any other restriction which he did not express. So, maintaining this subordination, "by right of conquest" means the same for her as it does for Him.
The other two titles: (3) She is Queen by grace. She is full of grace, the highest in the category of grace besides her Son. (4) She is Queen by singular choice of the Father. A mere human can become King or Queen by choice of the people. How much greater a title is the choice of the Father Himself!
Pius XII added that "nothing is excluded from her dominion." As Mediatrix of all graces, who shared in earning all graces, she is, as Benedict XV said, "Suppliant omnipotence": she, united with her Son, can obtain by her intercession anything that the all-powerful God can do by His own inherent power.
In the Old Testament, under some Davidic kings, the gebirah, the "Great Lady", usually the Mother of the King, held great power as advocate with the king. Cf. 1 Kings 2:20, where Solomon said to his Mother Bathsheba, seated on a throne at his right: "Make your request, Mother, for I will not refuse you." Here is a sort of type of Our Lady.
UNTIL SHE DIES ON THE CROSS FOR MY SINS, then I'll worship her and give her all the glory. Other than that; she's just another sinner needing a Savior.
(1) He is king by nature, as God; she is Queen by "divine relationship" that is, by being the Mother of God. In fact her relation to her Son is greater than that of ordinary Mothers of Kings. For she is the Mother of Him who is King by very nature, from all eternity, and the relationship is exclusive, for He had no human father. Still further, the ordinary queen-mother gives birth to a child who later will become king. The son of Mary is, as we said, eternally king, by His very nature. (2) He is king by right of conquest. She too is Queen by right of conquest. We already saw that this title for Him means that He redeemed us from the captivity of satan. She shared in the struggle and victory. Since the Pope expressed her dependence on Him in a threefold way--something we would have known anyway--then it is clear that he did not have in mind any other restriction which he did not express. So, maintaining this subordination, "by right of conquest" means the same for her as it does for Him.
The other two titles: (3) She is Queen by grace. She is full of grace, the highest in the category of grace besides her Son. (4) She is Queen by singular choice of the Father. A mere human can become King or Queen by choice of the people. How much greater a title is the choice of the Father Himself!
Pius XII added that "nothing is excluded from her dominion." As Mediatrix of all graces, who shared in earning all graces, she is, as Benedict XV said, "Suppliant omnipotence": she, united with her Son, can obtain by her intercession anything that the all-powerful God can do by His own inherent power.
In the Old Testament, under some Davidic kings, the gebirah, the "Great Lady", usually the Mother of the King, held great power as advocate with the king. Cf. 1 Kings 2:20, where Solomon said to his Mother Bathsheba, seated on a throne at his right: "Make your request, Mother, for I will not refuse you." Here is a sort of type of Our Lady.
UNTIL SHE DIES ON THE CROSS FOR MY SINS, then I'll worship her and give her all the glory. Other than that; she's just another sinner needing a Savior.
A few questions:
1) Do you agree that we should imitate Christ in everything we do?
If so...
2) Do you agree Jesus followed the ten commandments?
If so..
One of the commandments where to honor you mother and your father. If Jesus followed the commandments, which I beleive he did, then he honoured his mother. And since we want to imitate Jesus, we, as Catholics, also honour Mary, his mother. We do not WORSHIP her, we HONOUR her. As Jesus did.
1) Do you agree that we should imitate Christ in everything we do?
If so...
2) Do you agree Jesus followed the ten commandments?
If so..
One of the commandments where to honor you mother and your father. If Jesus followed the commandments, which I beleive he did, then he honoured his mother. And since we want to imitate Jesus, we, as Catholics, also honour Mary, his mother. We do not WORSHIP her, we HONOUR her. As Jesus did.
Last edited by Alanna on Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Poetic_Soul
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When Mary became a co-savior (mediatrix) by the PIUS XII, he gave her divinity. As Ceasur expepted Hail, to be worshiped, so did Mary. I honor Mary for taking on that much responsability of receiving a blessing from God just to be taken away. But that's it. Her only responsability at that time was to birth and nurture Jesus. To pray to her is like praying to the dead. I go straight to the resource which is Christ that sits at the throne. I don't need a priest to confess my sins because Jesus is my HIGH PRIEST.
Like I was saying, I respect and honor Mary. But that's as far as it goes. My parents passed away about 7 years ago. Should I pray to them to get what I want from God? Of course not. I'll go to the one who gives out the blessings. God, Christ himself.
Like I was saying, I respect and honor Mary. But that's as far as it goes. My parents passed away about 7 years ago. Should I pray to them to get what I want from God? Of course not. I'll go to the one who gives out the blessings. God, Christ himself.
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voicingmaster
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Yeah, but Mary is Jesus's mother, not ours. Jesus honored her b/c she was His mother.Alanna wrote:A few questions:
1) Do you agree that we should imitate Christ in everything we do?
If so...
2) Do you agree Jesus followed the ten commandments?
If so..
One of the commandments where to honor you mother and your father. If Jesus followed the commandments, which I beleive he did, then he honoured his mother. And since we want to imitate Jesus, we, as Catholics, also honour Mary, his mother. We do not WORSHIP her, we HONOUR her. As Jesus did.
God Bless!
Alanna Witzaney
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LittleShepherd
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The image of the woman, sun, moon, and stars is just a sign that refers to two sets of events(one in the past, one in the future) that happen to share some remarkable similarities, and has nothing to do with the deific nature of either Mary or Israel.
--Mary gave birth to Jesus, then ran to Egypt to hide from Herod.
--Israel, in one sense, birthed the savior, and will one day run into the wilderness(believed to be the Petra region by some) in order to hide from the Antichrist.
As for the nature of Mary, she was merely a human. She's a shining example of the great things that God can do through a person's life when that person is fully submitted to His will. Nothing more, nothing less.
A fallacy in the "Jesus honored Mary" argument is this -- the correct statement should read:
"As Jesus honored his earthly mother, so should we honor our own earthly mothers."
Such honor has nothing to do with deifying, praying to them when they're dead, or anything else. We are not to honor Mary the way that Jesus honored her because she is not our earthly mother. At the most, we simply look to her as another example of a mere human used by God to accomplish great things -- no greater or lesser than Abraham, Moses, David, Peter, Paul, etc.
Jesus' honoring of her was, in part, to set an example to all of us on how to deal with our own mothers. He never deified her. He never raised her to a level equal to or higher than God. He simply treated her the way any earthly mother is supposed to be treated.
On earth, Mary was Jesus' physical mother, and He honored her as we are all to honor our mothers.
In heaven, Mary is just another created human, saved by the blood of Christ like the rest of us, and in heaven she will be giving all honor and praise to Christ, not the other way around.
--Mary gave birth to Jesus, then ran to Egypt to hide from Herod.
--Israel, in one sense, birthed the savior, and will one day run into the wilderness(believed to be the Petra region by some) in order to hide from the Antichrist.
As for the nature of Mary, she was merely a human. She's a shining example of the great things that God can do through a person's life when that person is fully submitted to His will. Nothing more, nothing less.
A fallacy in the "Jesus honored Mary" argument is this -- the correct statement should read:
"As Jesus honored his earthly mother, so should we honor our own earthly mothers."
Such honor has nothing to do with deifying, praying to them when they're dead, or anything else. We are not to honor Mary the way that Jesus honored her because she is not our earthly mother. At the most, we simply look to her as another example of a mere human used by God to accomplish great things -- no greater or lesser than Abraham, Moses, David, Peter, Paul, etc.
Jesus' honoring of her was, in part, to set an example to all of us on how to deal with our own mothers. He never deified her. He never raised her to a level equal to or higher than God. He simply treated her the way any earthly mother is supposed to be treated.
On earth, Mary was Jesus' physical mother, and He honored her as we are all to honor our mothers.
In heaven, Mary is just another created human, saved by the blood of Christ like the rest of us, and in heaven she will be giving all honor and praise to Christ, not the other way around.