help with doubt and unbelief

[tuor]

I have a few questions I was hoping those here could help me with. Reading through some of the posts in this forum, it seems like there is often suspicion of the questioner's sincerity. I can understand that, atheists despise sincerity more than anything (with the possible exception of someone daring to be happy). If I sound naive, and stupid, please don't take it as me somehow trying to troll the board. If I am long winded, I also apologize. My mind has been twisted into knots the last few months, and I no longer think or write as clearly as I once did.

As way of background, at one time I called myself a Christian but my lifestyle did not match what I said I believed. I had many doubts about the Bible, but I avoided anything that might contradict the Bible for many years out of fear of what I might find. Eventually though, my interest in sabermetrics brought me into contact with atheists online. It was an alien world to me, I had grown up in a conservative christian home, and everyone I knew it seemed was a Christian.

As time went by my viewpoints and morality grew more and more warped even though I went to church (my wife is a strong Christian). I know it sounds ridiculous, but there came a day that I didn't believe in God any more. I loved my wife, so I kept quiet about it, but in my head, a type of arrogance developed towards Christians. As time went by my behavior grew worse and worse. I grew very cold and uncaring, I mocked other people, etc. But one day, I found out the son of an old camp counselor of mine had eye cancer. Our sons are the exact same age. The father never once doubted Jesus Christ. The situation broke me, I haven't been able to explain to other people exactly why, maybe it was because that the only love left in me was for my children. It reminded me of who I could have been. I drove home that day from work, horrified at what I had become crying to God for forgiveness. I quit interacting with atheists, and I tried to turn to God. That was 7 months ago. I tried to fight all of the atheist type thinking in my head with books (Habermas, excerpts from Craig, Geisler) but my mind eventually broke. That's the best way I can describe it. Just completely broke.

For awhile I couldn't do anything. A couple of months ago Mr. Deem was kind enough to respond to an e-mailed question I had, and I am very grateful to him. But the same doubts/unbelief keeps hammering me. Its like there are hurdles in my head to believing. Here they are, if anyone can help, I would pathetically grateful.

I believe Christ rose from the dead, its the only explanation. I've read and read and read. Nothing else makes sense. But. What broke my mind was all of the jokes and mocking things atheists I had been around said. Here are some, some I have been doing a better job of overcoming than others:

1. Christ talks about Jonah. This one doesn't bother me as much as it once did. What better way to predict something that's impossible (the resurrection) than to give as a sign something else that's impossible. So this one isn't too bad, but any help anyone can offer regarding the subject would be great.

2. Christ talks about Adam and Eve, and marriage. I have trouble with this one still. I've read the site, we have common ancestors? Again, this one doesn't bother me as much as it once did. But it still does bother me because it hurts me on the topic of sin and atonement.

3. Cain and Abel. This is what I asked Mr. Deem about. The atheists I hung out with liked to make jokes about "Abel's sheep". I can't get it out of my head. Its what broke my mind. If that sounds stupid, I'm sorry, but its the truth. In my head, I both believed that Christ rose from the dead, and talked about something that wasn't true (blood of Abel). I couldn't resolve it. It put me in a day treatment program for two weeks. When I say my mind broke, I am being serious. I know I'm not as smart as those here, I'm not a philosopher, and I couldn't resolve it.

4. Noah. Jesus talks about the days of Noah. I've read article on Noah on the site, and that man had a mass extinction, etc. etc. But it still bothers me.

Has anyone here had the same issues or doubts? How did you overcome these attacks? If someone has the time to help, I would be grateful. Please be patient though. I missed a ton of time at work, and had to quit thinking about spiritual things for awhile just to be able to function. My mind still isn't completely right. Thank you for any help you can give. I am trying to raise my sons to worship Jesus Christ, but I keep getting more and more depressed because I can't seem to believe. I am determined that my sons will not turn out like I did, and be men of faith, but I can't seem to have any faith beyond that of a type of deism. I am afraid its too late for me.

[cslewislover]

I believe Christ rose from the dead, its the only explanation. I've read and read and read. Nothing else makes sense. But. What broke my mind was all of the jokes and mocking things atheists I had been around said. Here are some, some I have been doing a better job of overcoming than others:

1. Christ talks about Jonah. This one doesn't bother me as much as it once did. What better way to predict something that's impossible (the resurrection) than to give as a sign something else that's impossible. So this one isn't too bad, but any help anyone can offer regarding the subject would be great.

Do you mean, did it really happen? Or do you have other concerns about it?

2. Christ talks about Adam and Eve, and marriage. I have trouble with this one still. I've read the site, we have common ancestors? Again, this one doesn't bother me as much as it once did. But it still does bother me because it hurts me on the topic of sin and atonement.

I think this is a very difficult issue. The evidence is there for common ancestry, yet I still believe in the Genesis account. I don't know how to reconcile the two things myself, yet I believe that if we knew everything it would indeed all make sense. I guess this is faith, but I don't think I have a blind faith. Maybe some others will post on this subject.

3. Cain and Abel. This is what I asked Mr. Deem about. The atheists I hung out with liked to make jokes about "Abel's sheep". I can't get it out of my head. Its what broke my mind. If that sounds stupid, I'm sorry, but its the truth. In my head, I both believed that Christ rose from the dead, and talked about something that wasn't true (blood of Abel). I couldn't resolve it. It put me in a day treatment program for two weeks. When I say my mind broke, I am being serious. I know I'm not as smart as those here, I'm not a philosopher, and I couldn't resolve it.

Can you explain this more? I'm sorry, I don't understand your concern, about Jesus and Abel's blood. What about Abel's blood?

4. Noah. Jesus talks about the days of Noah. I've read article on Noah on the site, and that man had a mass extinction, etc. etc. But it still bothers me.

Do you mean that it bothers you that God would destroy most of life?

Has anyone here had the same issues or doubts? How did you overcome these attacks? If someone has the time to help, I would be grateful. Please be patient though. I missed a ton of time at work, and had to quit thinking about spiritual things for awhile just to be able to function. My mind still isn't completely right. Thank you for any help you can give. I am trying to raise my sons to worship Jesus Christ, but I keep getting more and more depressed because I can't seem to believe. I am determined that my sons will not turn out like I did, and be men of faith, but I can't seem to have any faith beyond that of a type of deism. I am afraid its too late for me.

There are some atheist sites that have good, persuasive writers on them. And sometimes, when I first read some of their things, I am taken aback. But after thinking about what they write, I've found that I disagree with them. Sometimes I may need to look up some things first, but that's OK. I think it can be very dangerous to hang out with ardent atheists if you don't know your bible well. Have you read your bible often, lately? I think daily bible reading really helps. Do you pray everyday?

I do have issues with the bible, though, things I don't understand. I have found through time, however, that most of my concerns get answered. The concerns and issues I have now, however, may not be answered until later (when I'm in heaven). Anyway, I will pray for you and about your situation until I see your next post.

[ageofknowledge]

It's not too late for you brother. God's arms are wide open and he welcomes you back as a son. There are countless prodigals throughout history and all that repent and return are accepted as sons. That's how great God's love is. So welcome back. And know that if your heart condemns you, God is greater than your heart and able to completely forgive you just like that.

He knows life is tough and there's a devil out there deceiving and attacking people. I've experienced it myself. In fact, I've been through much greater sin and much harder times than you have. My hands are deformed right now as I write this to you and it didn't have to happen. But that's this world, the people in it, and the devil. Don't blame it on God. He's not doing it. Blame it on the devil and people. They are the ones doing it. God loves you as much as He loves Billy Graham. It's hard to believe I know because he allows life to play itself out but it's very true that He doesn't love like a person would. He's infinitely greater than a person and able to love and forgive like that. Whatever we're going through it will all be sorted out in the end and we won't be troubled by it afterwards.

It sounds like you might be struggling with anxiety and need to relax and trust God. Let go and find people living Christ in their lives and make friends with them. People who have joy and love and faith. You don't have to white knuckle it through life. The answers are all there but you don't need all the answers to relax and let God friend. I'm sure people will have good advice for you here beyond my simple words. For you I say "Peace."

[tuor]

Cslewislover, yes, Jonah bothers me in that I've seen those that say although Jonah really did preach to Nineveh, the part with the fish was intended to be a parable. As for me, Jesus Christ seems to preach regarding Jonah literally. But the Bible says that Jesus did not speak without using a parable. So...I think there is room to interpret it either way, literally, or as a parable. As I said, it doesn't bother me as much as it did at one time. But it does confuse me in that I can't seem to reach a decision for myself personally, whether its a parable, or literal.

As for Adam and Eve, thank you for your honesty in saying it troubles you as well. I'm always afraid to bring this up with pastors and others. It really hurts me on the doctrine of sin. Evil exists, I know that, and there is no explanation for us having a concept of evil unless God put a sense of right and wrong in us. Where I struggle is WHY I have a sense of right and wrong in relation to human origin. Again, I can't seem to reach a decision whether to interpret it as a parable, or literal. Jesus again, seems to teach a literal Adam and Eve, but on the other hand, even as a parable Adam and Eve speaks to me. I have been speaking to a Christian counselor. It is like there is a three sided struggle in my head between what I was taught as a kid, what I've read from atheists, and the new me trying to resolve the arguments atheists make and what I believed as a kid. The counselor says its what caused my mind to go bad, is that I'm not who I was as a kid, and I'm not who I was a year ago, and right now, I could go either way. I've discovered that the most virulent atheists are those that had faith at one time, and lost faith. I didn't understand that at one time, but now I do. I can't seem to get over bitterness. I'm so bitter at myself for leaving the faith, but if I am honest with myself, part of me is bitter with Christians who held to the faith because I can't seem to have faith myself. I love church, and I love Christians now, and I've decided to cast my lot with them, but it hurts so bad, because I can't seem to get faith back. My kids love church, and are memorizing the Bible, but instead of joy, I feel pain. Excruciating pain, because I remember a time I had absolute faith. But I don't know what else to do, other than keep taking them to church, keep teaching them the Bible, and hope something changes for myself.


CS Lewis, as for Abel, atheists mock Christ for talking about Abel because it doesn't seem possible that Abel was a shepherd. But Christ talks about Abel as a literal person in saying that the ground cried out with the blood of the prophets. Pastors have told me that Christ was referring to the first and last murders in the Hebrew canon when he was talking to his Jewish audience. But it still doesn't answer the anthropology doubt in my head. That is what the atheists are getting at. I can't seem to resolve this one because I do believe in the resurrection, but why did Christ talk about this if it wasn't "true"? I actually e-mailed Dr. Habermas about this, and he was kind enough to respond, but he seems to say that if the resurrection is true, you shouldn't really worry about the rest. I can't seem to do that though. I've tried. I know it doesn't make sense. If I believe Christ rose from the dead, he must be God, right? But for some reason, that isn't clicking for me.

As for Noah, the Table of Nations bothers me. I believe there is a reason man has a common memory of a flood. But on the other hand, the Table of Nations doesn't seem to work. I've read the local flood arguments, and it does make some sense to me, but in order for it to have wiped out humanity, it would have had to be very early in human history. I haven't been able to resolve this one either. Again, Christ rose from the dead, why can't I just take His word for it? But I can't seem to.

As for reading the Bible and praying every day, I did that for hours a day for a long time, but then my mind broke. I came close to giving up, but I've decided to try again. The trouble I'm having is that my mind hasn't healed yet, and my job is fairly demanding. When I was in my right mind, although others found the job difficult, I always found it easy. You reap what you sow, etc. Now I really struggle. I'm pretty much mentally exhausted when I get home now. I'm afraid of another mental burn out. I still have trouble expressing my thoughts concisely, so if my posts don't seem to flow logically like they should, please chalk it up to that.

Thank you for praying for me CS. To show you the depths to which I have fallen, I actually did a semester project on CS Lewis in college, and presented it in a class. It was on Lewis' life, and Till we have Faces. How I ever fell as far as I did, I don't think I'll ever understand. I really screwed up.

Age of Knowledge, thank you for your encouragement. I feel like I've been beat up so much mentally, that I can't come back to faith. Thank you for the encouragement. You've touched on something I really struggle with. I've lost all sense of a God that cares for me personally. I absolutely believe there is a God, and that Christ rose from the dead, but I can't seem to believe that He cares for me personally. I know that doesn't make any sense, but its the truth. You are very perceptive, I do struggle with anxiety. Anxiety is not rational. Its like my mind is split, I can't seem to think rationally any more. I get so anxious that I'll "never" have faith, that its a self fulfilling prophecy. I have sought out Christian friends, but its painful, if that makes any sense. They have joy and peace, and fellowship with God. And I had a semblance of that at one time, but I can't seem to get it back. Its so messed up. I lived in sin and said I believed, and now I got rid of the sin, and I can't believe.

Thank you Age for your encouragement.

[cslewislover]

Wow, Tuor, I do want to respond some, but I'm getting ready for church. I will continue to pray for you and will respond with some things later today (God willing ).

[ageofknowledge]

"Age of Knowledge, thank you for your encouragement. I feel like I've been beat up so much mentally, that I can't come back to faith. Thank you for the encouragement. You've touched on something I really struggle with. I've lost all sense of a God that cares for me personally. I absolutely believe there is a God, and that Christ rose from the dead, but I can't seem to believe that He cares for me personally. I know that doesn't make any sense, but its the truth. You are very perceptive, I do struggle with anxiety. Anxiety is not rational. Its like my mind is split, I can't seem to think rationally any more. I get so anxious that I'll "never" have faith, that its a self fulfilling prophecy. I have sought out Christian friends, but its painful, if that makes any sense. They have joy and peace, and fellowship with God. And I had a semblance of that at one time, but I can't seem to get it back. Its so messed up. I lived in sin and said I believed, and now I got rid of the sin, and I can't believe.

Thank you Age for your encouragement."

Sure. I remember being there as well once many years ago. Imagine my delight at sitting in church and having a word of knowledge come through this small town pastor telling me about my close friend I had lost and all these things this pastor knew nothing about and ending with telling me how great the Lord loved me and it was the devil that had deceived me and attacked and damaged my family all those years not Him. That rather He had seen my self-loathing, forgiven and accepted me, and loved me with the same measure he loved the best Christians. God told me this directly through a small town pastor that knew almost nothing about me and it blew us both away. I've since realized this message was for me yes but also for everyone like me and that means you friend . Now you know.

I don't know where you're at but if you are in Orange County, CA come on down to Saddleback and I'll plug you into our Celebrate Recovery meetings. Actually they are all over the place so just google and see if there's one near you. It's a very healing fellowship of non-judgemental believers.

[cslewislover]

Hi Tuor. I like your name, by the way, since I like the Silmarillion. But . . . I'd need to go back and get the details for that character - it's been a while since I read the whole book. Why did you pick the name?

CS Lewis, as for Abel, atheists mock Christ for talking about Abel because it doesn't seem possible that Abel was a shepherd. But Christ talks about Abel as a literal person in saying that the ground cried out with the blood of the prophets. Pastors have told me that Christ was referring to the first and last murders in the Hebrew canon when he was talking to his Jewish audience. But it still doesn't answer the anthropology doubt in my head. That is what the atheists are getting at. I can't seem to resolve this one because I do believe in the resurrection, but why did Christ talk about this if it wasn't "true"? I actually e-mailed Dr. Habermas about this, and he was kind enough to respond, but he seems to say that if the resurrection is true, you shouldn't really worry about the rest. I can't seem to do that though. I've tried. I know it doesn't make sense. If I believe Christ rose from the dead, he must be God, right? But for some reason, that isn't clicking for me.

Maybe I'm being dense, but this isn't an issue for me. Hopefully it won't become an issue . Why wouldn't Abel be a real person? Why would he not be a shepherd? Humans weren't supposed to eat meat yet, but obviously God preferred this sacrifice/atonement. I want to go ahead and quote one of my commentaries:

Genesis "4:2-6. The process of time mentioned in verse 3a allows for a considerable increase in the world's population. There must have been a time when Cain and Abel were instructed that sinful man can approach the holy God only on the ground of the blood of a substitutionary sacrifice. Cain rejected this revelation and came with a bloodless offering of fruits and vegetables. Abel believed the divine decree and offered slain animals, thus demonstrating his faith and his justification by God (Heb. 11:4). He brought the firstborn of his flock, saying in effect that the Lord deserves the best. Abel's offering points forward to the substitionary death of the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world." (William MacDonald, Believer's Bible Commentary p 37).

I could go into the murder more and everything, but I'm not sure that's the point. Let me know. By the way, my name is Vicki.

PS: How did your Till We Have Faces project turn out?

[tuor]

Age, I want you to know that your post might be the freakiest thing that ever happened to me. As a matter of fact a month or two ago I had been attending a Celebrate Recovery out here on the east coast, people drive from hours away to go to it. I've been struggling with the science and anthropology stuff for awhile, and I'd prayed that God would give me a mentor. As it turned out, there was an engineer there who read Hugh Ross and really helped me for awhile before my mind broke. I got discouraged, and quit going, having convinced myself it wasn't an answer to prayer. I kid you not, last week the Celebrate Recovery leader left me a message asking me to come back. I've been so depressed and despondent, I never called him back.

Maybe I ought to go back, ay?

[tuor]

CS, I picked Tuor because I love the Silmarillion and some of Tolkien's other lesser known writings. They are fragmentary, but something about the scope and depth of them have always spoken to me. I've always loved Tolkien, because there is a bittersweet tinge all through his writings. When Frodo comes back, even though they "won", he was never the same. That's very true to real life. But I like the things he wrote earlier in the chronology than LotR because of the depth and scope, even though they were unfinished. Feanor's war against Morgoth was hopeless, which really speaks to me. There is no hope without outside intervention (God). I chose Tuor for a stupid reason, because I like Tolkien and because Tuor was allowed into Valinor even though he was a man. Silly, I know, but its the first thing that popped into my head when registering.

As for Abel, I don't want to plant any doubt in your head if its not an issue for you. I know Abel is a picture of having your heart right towards God, I should just think of it in those terms. As for the project, I did fairly well. There were three parts to it, a paper, the presentation, and commentary on other peoples' presentations (we alternated throughout the semester). If I recall correctly, I scored one of three As on the paper, one of two or three A's on the presentation, and a D for commentary.

I'm a quiet sort.=)

I go by James. I'm sorry if this post was overly chatty and off topic, if there is a more appropriate place for it to be moved, please do so. You and Age have both been an encouragement to me, I'd like to continue to write the two of you from time to time with questions if its ok, whether in this forum, or a different one if more appropriate. After hearing Age suggest I get plugged into Celebrate Recovery, that's the most hopeful I've felt in months. My questions are still unresolved, but at least now I feel like God is trying to tell me He's with me or trying to reach me.

[ageofknowledge]

Age, I want you to know that your post might be the freakiest thing that ever happened to me. As a matter of fact a month or two ago I had been attending a Celebrate Recovery out here on the east coast, people drive from hours away to go to it. I've been struggling with the science and anthropology stuff for awhile, and I'd prayed that God would give me a mentor. As it turned out, there was an engineer there who read Hugh Ross and really helped me for awhile before my mind broke. I got discouraged, and quit going, having convinced myself it wasn't an answer to prayer. I kid you not, last week the Celebrate Recovery leader left me a message asking me to come back. I've been so depressed and despondent, I never called him back.

Maybe I ought to go back, ay?

Absolutely. If you drop out again, then pick up when a new group opens. God loves you. Keep coming back each time. . It's OK. The point of the thing is to be in a Christian fellowship with people who are honest with themselves and each other even if you stumble around with it and in it and attendance isn't perfect. Try to make a couple friends there and call them up regularly. It's good to have people to talk with and the mind eventually mends (assuming there's nothing biologically wrong) with or without meds though meds often make things more comfortable. I've been through that before. It took awhile and was uncomfortable but eventually a full recovery results. Just don't too much and when you do things: Learn to do them in a relaxed state.

[Christalone]

I can certainly understand the difficulty of interacting with atheists. I have been in discussions with various ones over the years and have been conversing with a few most recently over the last two months. The mockery, belittling,and name-calling are intense. I have come to realize that no matter what I may say they always have an argument and scriptures are always twisted. More than anything else, I've realized that it is truly a spiritual battle as the Bible indicates. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Eph. 6:12 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 1 Peter 5:8 NKJ It is not something that you, I, or any Christian can do in our own strength. It must be done in God's power and with much prayer. Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints-Eph. 6:10-18 NKJ

I would like to ask you if you are a born again Christian ? If so, then I would encourage you to remember that you are a new creation in Christ and old things have passed away. For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2 Cor. 5:13-17 NKJ This reminds me that I must realize that truth each day and remember that it is Jesus Christ living in me that makes me a Christian, not me trying to be one. If you have been trying to discuss spiritual things with atheists or if you have been trying to be a Christian in your own strength then that is the reason you are struggling so and having such turmoil in your mind. Our minds are the battlefield. But, God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. 2 Tim.1:7 NKJ.
I would like to encourage you to remember who you are in Christ and rest in Him and His strength, not your own efforts. He is the Creator of heaven and earth, He can take care of you. Walking in the flesh only brings defeat, while walking in the Spirit brings life and victory. Seek Him each day and stay close to Him. Renew your mind by reading and actually believing the scriptures about your life in Christ.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2 NKJ
If you are not a born again believer, but are a "Christian" because that how you were raised, then now is the time to personally repent of trying live the Christian life or contend with atheists on your own. Give yourself totally to Christ who loves you and gave Himself for you. I pray that you will find Jesus to be all sufficient to get you through your difficulties. I have included a few more verses that I find very helpful.

As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. Colossians 2:6-10 NKJ

O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge— 1 Tim. 6:20

Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:6-7 NKJ

[ageofknowledge]

I can certainly understand the difficulty of interacting with atheists. I have been in discussions with various ones over the years and have been conversing with a few most recently over the last two months. The mockery, belittling,and name-calling are intense. I have come to realize that no matter what I may say they always have an argument and scriptures are always twisted.

Very true.

[DannyM]

I believe Christ rose from the dead, its the only explanation. I've read and read and read. Nothing else makes sense.
1. Christ talks about Jonah. This one doesn't bother me as much as it once did. What better way to predict something that's impossible (the resurrection) than to give as a sign something else that's impossible. So this one isn't too bad, but any help anyone can offer regarding the subject would be great.

You are right to believe in the resurrection. It is thus far the only logical explanation for the disappearence of Christ and the subsequent non-re-appearence of his body. If you need any tips to counter specific atheistic points against the resurrection please jump on me and I'll be happy to provide you with them.

Has anyone here had the same issues or doubts? How did you overcome these attacks? If someone has the time to help, I would be grateful. Please be patient though. I missed a ton of time at work, and had to quit thinking about spiritual things for awhile just to be able to function. My mind still isn't completely right. Thank you for any help you can give. I am trying to raise my sons to worship Jesus Christ, but I keep getting more and more depressed because I can't seem to believe. I am determined that my sons will not turn out like I did, and be men of faith, but I can't seem to have any faith beyond that of a type of deism. I am afraid its too late for me.

Atheist attacks are pretty easy to deal with. I hope you will continue to ask questions on anything you need, and I for one will try to back you with as many tips as I can. Remembr that atheism is a belief system as much as theism is a belief system. Do not let the atheist get away with asserting that they are the more rational, as they are not. Since the natural sciences is all about deduction from observable data, then how on this earth is it that the atheist is so sure that there is no God? Atheism is a belief system which cannot be substantiated by any empirical-based evidence. Now swap "atheism" for "God" and ask yourself where you've heard this kind of thing before. I wish you well.

Godbless

[tuor]

Thank you for all of the responses. To clarify, when I say I interacted with atheists, it was on other subjects I was interested in, I stayed away from the discussions on God, although I observed the discussions on God. Even that was enough to poison my mind. I believe atheism is untenable, philosophically and scientifically, I am certain of that. I am sure that atheists are wrong, but I am now struggling with deism versus Christianity. How I ever got to this point I'll never know. I remember taking an epistemology class in college on a lark (and not paying all that much attention) and studying Plantinga. I remember thinking at the time "what kind of idiot wouldn't believe in Jesus Christ"?

Its like I'm trapped in a nightmare of my own making. Christalone, yes, I was raised as a Christian. When I said there is a three way struggle in my head, that is what I meant. My grandfather has a very strong KJV "say to this mountain" kind of faith. I remember taking the aforementioned paper on C.S. Lewis to show my grandfather. In his typical humility he said he couldn't make "head nor tails of it". In my pride, I thought I really knew God. As background, my grandfather's father was an alcoholic, and my grandfather dropped out of school in sixth grade to work so his brothers and sisters could eat. His greatest dream was to see me go to college. And for all the C.S. Lewis and William Craig and Habermas and Moreland I try to read, I've come to realize I'll never know God on the level that my grandfather does with his KJV living in a shack up on a mountain with his wood stove. When my grandfather heard that I was trying to turn back to God he told me two things.

1. Don't ever fear anything, because God is on your side.

2. Always live a holy life, because you never know when someone will turn from sin, and be saved.

That is a source of the conflict. I read Craig, Plantinga, and others, and its like it isn't even the same God. To tell the truth, that's not the God I want, I want the God of my grandfather. My grandfather keeps sending me letters with scriptures in them as encouragement. I can not begin to describe the shame and despair I feel at abandoning God, and the wisdom of my grandfather. If that sounds naive, or waifish, so be it. He walks with God. And everyone that has ever met him knows it.

I hope this helps explain some of my struggles. I don't know if others have had a similar struggle. I don't know if it makes sense, but I wanted to elaborate on the three part struggle thing. There is the faith of my youth, the period of total Godlessness I went through, and now me, trying to figure out what in the world went wrong with me and how its ever going to be fixed. Every time I even contemplate anything other than a completely "literal" interpretation of the Bible, it feels like a total betrayal of the God of my youth. On the other hand, that kind of child like faith has been lost, and I can't get it back.

One pastor told me that I needed to have a "mature" understanding of the Bible. And by the time he got through throwing out chunks of the old testament and saying "nowhere in the New Testament is this found" my blood boiled. I know in my head what that pastor said was true. I know that. But that kind of God, the cold analytical systematic theologian kind of God, doesn't mean a thing to me. All the philosophical, for lack of a better word, "junk", isn't helping. I've lost all sense of a God that cares for me personally, and I'm just a mess. I do not mean to be insulting, sometimes things come across harsher in print or on the internet than was intended. I believe I insulted Habermas in followup correspondence after he had been kind enough to write me, which embarrasses me to no end. I was really not in my right mind at the time, but I still feel terrible about it. Thanks to all for your encouragement.

P.S. Vicki, I got the PM, but evidently I'm not enabled to respond.

[Kurieuo]

Hi tour, just read this thread and wondering if you're still around. How are things going?