Moses' shame?

[DannyM]

Numbers 31: 14-18. Moses seeks vengence on the Midianites. I'd rather not repeat the passage on here, as it troubles me deeply.

We know that our God of the OT was harsh but mainly Just. How on this earth do we square this with the actions of Moses towards those Midianites whose crimes, in reality (Num 25) did not warrant the reaction of Moses of killing women and boys.

Dan

[Jac3510]

Gen 12:1-3 says that anyone who curses Israel will be cursed. As you note, Numbers 31 goes back to Num 25, which itself goes back to 22-24, in which Balaam is paid to curse Israel. It is immediately evident, then, that the Moabites were under the curse of Gen 12. Still moreso given the events of Num 25! Further, it is evident from the passage that the events of Num 25 were under the orders of Balaam, which heightens further their guilt, for Balaam had not been able to curse Israel. Unable to do so, he came up with another plan, which is played out in Num 25. It is therefore easy to see why the women were killed as well.

The bottom line is that these people sinned in two ways against God. First, they cursed His people, and second, they led His people into idolatry, and both of these for the purpose of destroying them. What, then, could God's response have been? They tried to destroy Israel, therefore, God destroyed them. Had He not, what would have been the lesson to Israel? God was showing them that they were a special people and that His promise in 12:1-3 was real. Anyone, then, who was against them or God, be they foreign or not, would suffer God's wrath.

[DannyM]

Gen 12:1-3 says that anyone who curses Israel will be cursed. As you note, Numbers 31 goes back to Num 25, which itself goes back to 22-24, in which Balaam is paid to curse Israel. It is immediately evident, then, that the Moabites were under the curse of Gen 12. Still moreso given the events of Num 25! Further, it is evident from the passage that the events of Num 25 were under the orders of Balaam, which heightens further their guilt, for Balaam had not been able to curse Israel. Unable to do so, he came up with another plan, which is played out in Num 25. It is therefore easy to see why the women were killed as well.

The bottom line is that these people sinned in two ways against God. First, they cursed His people, and second, they led His people into idolatry, and both of these for the purpose of destroying them. What, then, could God's response have been? They tried to destroy Israel, therefore, God destroyed them. Had He not, what would have been the lesson to Israel? God was showing them that they were a special people and that His promise in 12:1-3 was real. Anyone, then, who was against them or God, be they foreign or not, would suffer God's wrath.

Thanks Jac. I haven't got the good book to hand right now, but if I (I hope I!) remember correctly, Balaam refuses the request of Balak to curse Israel, in his oracles plainly keeping the word of God? I think Balaam keeps holding fast to the wishes of God? I'll go back to Numbers 25 and take another look.

Your second paragraph, when you put it like that, helps me slightly in squaring the actions of Moses with a Just God. I'm still uncomfortable with the killing of women, children and only sparing only those women fit for intercourse, but what are we if we don't question things? Christianity has a long and proud history of being open to scrutiny.

Thanks again. Godbless

[Jac3510]

Regarding having a Bible handy, I recommend www.biblegateway.org. You can also download a great program called e-sword at www.e-sword.net.

As far as Balaam goes (pulling up my biblegateway . . .), yes, he only blesses Israel as God commanded, but there are several things we must remember that point to his guilt.

First, he practiced sorcery. Balak expressly went to him with a divination fee, which he was perfectly willing to take. Second, God expressly told him not to go with the men. When they came back a second time with a greater fee, he asked God for permission to go again. God let him, but was clearly angered by the request (as the incident with the donkey shows). Third, there is a clear Balaam vs. God theme set up. Balak's words in 22:6 set up an important theme for the rest of the chapter. He said to Balaam, "For I know that those you bless are blessed, and those you curse are cursed." This is a clear echo of Gen 12:3. But God told Balaam on the first visit that Israel was blessed and could not be cursed (22:12). The entire ensuing story, then, is set against the background of God already declaring Israel's position. Balaam should have let it drop there. Fourth, 24:1 says something of the methods Balaam used while trying to fulfill Balak's request. At the third location, it says that "he did not resort to sorcery as at other times." Fifth, there is a very subtle interchange of the divine names Elohim (translated 'God') and YHWH (translated 'LORD'). The former refers to God in His omnipotence and sovereignty, whereas the latter is used to refer to His covenant relationship with His people. It is very interesting to note, however, that though Balaam repeatedly calls YHWH his God, it is not YHWH who speaks to him, but God. We should note that the angel of YWHW does, and it is YHWH who gives him the oracles to bless Israel, but when Balaam goes to look for advice, God is the one who replies. The change in names is striking. Read the text yourself again, you will see that Balaam prays to YWHW, and yet Elohim responds.

All of these give us very good reason to believe that Balaam was, at best, a false prophet, and at worst, a medium or sorcerer. Do remember that YHWH was not only known to the Israelites. But just because people worshipped God by the name YHWH, it does not follow that they understood who He is, anymore than some people who use the named "Jesus" can be said to understand who He is.

Now, with that, turn to the event in Num. 25. The women are used to cause the men of Israel to fall into Baal worship, and the result is two-fold: 1) a plague that killed 24,000 people, and 2) all the men (the Israelites) who worshipped Baal were also killed. In that context, we come to Num 31. First, the general war itself was prophecied by Balaam, and required, for they attempted to curse Israel, and the entire theme of the unit was that those who curse Israel would be cursed. After the war, the women and children were saved (as was the custom! So much for Israel being so brutish . . .) and Moses responds:

• "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. (Num 31:15-17, NIV)

Notice that they followed BALAAM'S advice. This goes back to what I said before. When Balaam could not curse Israel, he apparently came up with a "plan B." This shows you just how wicked of a man he really was! Further, it was the very women who were saved who were the ones who participated in the action leading Israel into idol worship. Their death, then, is punishment for their own actions.

All that's left, then, is the killing of the boys. We don't have enough information here to make much by way of a judgment call, but we can note that they are parallel to the virgin girls who are saved. We're pretty clearly not talking about babies in that case, but rather girls who are old enough, or about to be old enough, to be married but have not yet done so. It seems reasonable, then, to conclude that these boys were about the same age--not old enough to fight in the war, but certainly old enough to remember the events and have been raised in their idolatry. Under this scenario, had they been allowed to live, many of them would have held it against Israel and would have started a rebellion when they got older. God certainly knows. Also, they would have grown up and married an Israelite woman, but being men, they would have been the head of the household. Yet these people were pagans, so it is likely that they would have led those families off into idolatry, resulting in another plague.

Regarding the girls, I can't imagine any complaints for sparing their lives!

All in all, then, I think the entire event is reasonable, and there is a very clear message to it: anyone, Israelite or foreigner, who curses Israel and draws them away into idolatry, will be destroyed, as per Gen 12:1-3. If only Israel had learned that lesson! It would take a broken kingdom and their exile from the land nearly a thousand years later to learn it. Further, it's safe to say that there is much in the passage for Christians to remember. God is a jealous God. He does not take kindly to those who who corrupt His people, be they Christian or not. We serve a loving, merciful, gracious God, but He is most definitely one to be feared.

So . . . that's my extended take, for what it is worth.

[DannyM]

Regarding having a Bible handy, I recommend http://www.biblegateway.org. You can also download a great program called e-sword at http://www.e-sword.net.

Thanks, these could come in handy

First, he practiced sorcery. Balak expressly went to him with a divination fee, which he was perfectly willing to take. Second, God expressly told him not to go with the men. When they came back a second time with a greater fee, he asked God for permission to go again. God let him, but was clearly angered by the request (as the incident with the donkey shows). Third, there is a clear Balaam vs. God theme set up. Balak's words in 22:6 set up an important theme for the rest of the chapter. He said to Balaam, "For I know that those you bless are blessed, and those you curse are cursed." This is a clear echo of Gen 12:3. But God told Balaam on the first visit that Israel was blessed and could not be cursed (22:12)

I hope you don't think I'm being a pain in the backside, Jac, but was Balaam really "perfectly willing to take" the fee for divination? He simply says, "Spend the night here, and I will bring you back the answer the LORD gives me." I know this isn't a refusal to deal in such terms, but it isn't a wholesale willingness to participate, either. It appears to me (perhaps naively) that Balaam is merely placating Balak. He appears to be (somewhat humourously) mediating between the Balak and God, almost like a limp liberal! Then again Balaam appears to be either unaware or pretty stupid to even ask God the question! But on God's word Ballam indeed holds fast: he doesn't deviate from God's word.

The incident with where Balaam shoots off in the morning smacks of a frightened man - or am I reading this wrong? Okay so he tries to slope off, but is immediately repentant, and again holds fast in his oracles.

The entire ensuing story, then, is set against the background of God already declaring Israel's position. Balaam should have let it drop there. Fourth, 24:1 says something of the methods Balaam used while trying to fulfill Balak's request. At the third location, it says that "he did not resort to sorcery as at other times." Fifth, there is a very subtle interchange of the divine names Elohim (translated 'God') and YHWH (translated 'LORD'). The former refers to God in His omnipotence and sovereignty, whereas the latter is used to refer to His covenant relationship with His people. It is very interesting to note, however, that though Balaam repeatedly calls YHWH his God, it is not YHWH who speaks to him, but God. We should note that the angel of YWHW does, and it is YHWH who gives him the oracles to bless Israel, but when Balaam goes to look for advice, God is the one who replies. The change in names is striking. Read the text yourself again, you will see that Balaam prays to YWHW, and yet Elohim responds.

I see the changes from LORD (YHWH, NIV) to Lord (Adonai), but from the very first oracle, Num 23: 5, "The LORD put a message in Balaam's mouth..." and from then on it seems that Ballam is in a perpetual state of appeasing Balak, while the LORD is happy to keep instructing Balaam to tell this fool to go and whistle dixie!

All of these give us very good reason to believe that Balaam was, at best, a false prophet, and at worst, a medium or sorcerer. Do remember that YHWH was not only known to the Israelites. But just because people worshipped God by the name YHWH, it does not follow that they understood who He is, anymore than some people who use the named "Jesus" can be said to understand who He is.

To be frank, I'm losing patience with Balaam, as he seems to be torn between the LORD and a fool. No brainer, or what?

Now, with that, turn to the event in Num. 25. The women are used to cause the men of Israel to fall into Baal worship, and the result is two-fold: 1) a plague that killed 24,000 people, and 2) all the men (the Israelites) who worshipped Baal were also killed. In that context, we come to Num 31. First, the general war itself was prophecied by Balaam, and required, for they attempted to curse Israel, and the entire theme of the unit was that those who curse Israel would be cursed. After the war, the women and children were saved (as was the custom! So much for Israel being so brutish . . .)

I see no real reason for the killing of Balaam, although God's word is final, and all I can do is try to make sense of things. Yes the women and children were originally spared, but hold on...

...and Moses responds:

• "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. (Num 31:15-17, NIV)

Notice that they followed BALAAM'S advice. This goes back to what I said before. When Balaam could not curse Israel, he apparently came up with a "plan B." This shows you just how wicked of a man he really was! Further, it was the very women who were saved who were the ones who participated in the action leading Israel into idol worship. Their death, then, is punishment for their own actions.

Jac, please point me to Balaam mouthing this advice. I'm reading you word for word and I have the good book in my hand, so show me where Balaam mouths this heretical advice and I'll shut right up.

All that's left, then, is the killing of the boys. We don't have enough information here to make much by way of a judgment call, but we can note that they are parallel to the virgin girls who are saved. We're pretty clearly not talking about babies in that case, but rather girls who are old enough, or about to be old enough, to be married but have not yet done so. It seems reasonable, then, to conclude that these boys were about the same age--not old enough to fight in the war, but certainly old enough to remember the events and have been raised in their idolatry. Under this scenario, had they been allowed to live, many of them would have held it against Israel and would have started a rebellion when they got older. God certainly knows. Also, they would have grown up and married an Israelite woman, but being men, they would have been the head of the household. Yet these people were pagans, so it is likely that they would have led those families off into idolatry, resulting in another plague.

I'm with you: the reality was exactly that, the harshness was something that Israel had to endure and the code was very much an eye for an eye. If you think of the destruction of a nation, instead of a group of boys or women then, while brutal and not ideal, it was the way of things then.

Regarding the girls, I can't imagine any complaints for sparing their lives!:)

What would there fate have been? Would they have rather been killed?

All in all, then, I think the entire event is reasonable, and there is a very clear message to it: anyone, Israelite or foreigner, who curses Israel and draws them away into idolatry, will be destroyed, as per Gen 12:1-3. If only Israel had learned that lesson! It would take a broken kingdom and their exile from the land nearly a thousand years later to learn it. Further, it's safe to say that there is much in the passage for Christians to remember. God is a jealous God. He does not take kindly to those who who corrupt His people, be they Christian or not. We serve a loving, merciful, gracious God, but He is most definitely one to be feared.

Absolutely with you on this. Just wonder when the big man will strike. I still long for the apocalyptic view to be true prophesy, but Judgement will have to wait.

So . . . that's my extended take, for what it is worth.

And it was well appreciated, and I have a couple of points in there which I hope for you to "clue me up" on, if I may take a further liberty...

Thanks, Jac. Godbless

[Jac3510]

I hope you don't think I'm being a pain in the backside, Jac, but was Balaam really "perfectly willing to take" the fee for divination? He simply says, "Spend the night here, and I will bring you back the answer the LORD gives me." I know this isn't a refusal to deal in such terms, but it isn't a wholesale willingness to participate, either. It appears to me (perhaps naively) that Balaam is merely placating Balak. He appears to be (somewhat humourously) mediating between the Balak and God, almost like a limp liberal! Then again Balaam appears to be either unaware or pretty stupid to even ask God the question! But on God's word Ballam indeed holds fast: he doesn't deviate from God's word.

The incident with where Balaam shoots off in the morning smacks of a frightened man - or am I reading this wrong? Okay so he tries to slope off, but is immediately repentant, and again holds fast in his oracles.

Balaam's source of income was sorcery. Sorcerers made their money by divination. To say he wasn't "perfectly willing" to take the fee would be like saying that a construction worker isn't perfecting willing to be paid for building a house. Regarding his fear, I don't see any evidence of that at all. He could have refused services at any time, and each time, he was practicing his sorcery. Doesn't sound very frightened to me. If you are going to read that, you need to have good warrant for it.

I see the changes from LORD (YHWH, NIV) to Lord (Adonai), but from the very first oracle, Num 23: 5, "The LORD put a message in Balaam's mouth..." and from then on it seems that Ballam is in a perpetual state of appeasing Balak, while the LORD is happy to keep instructing Balaam to tell this fool to go and whistle dixie!

Yes, YHWH is the one who put the oracles in Balaam's mouth; but that is because YHWH is the one blessing Israel (and, for that matter, cursing Balak!). Remember the distinction in elohim an YHWH. Both are certainly names for Israel's God, but YHWH was His covenantal name; it is YHWH, not Elohim, who blesses and curses His people Israel.

I'd encourage you, again, to go back and notice the interplay. Balaam speaks to YHWH; God responds to him; and YHWH uses Balaam to bless and curse on behalf of Israel. But in every case, it is God, not YHWH, responds to Balaam's "prayers".

To be frank, I'm losing patience with Balaam, as he seems to be torn between the LORD and a fool. No brainer, or what?

Should be! But this should tell you something about Balaam's character, and thus his devotion to the Lord. And that should put the rest of the story in the proper context (and, by the way, should have served as a good warning for Israel!).

I see no real reason for the killing of Balaam, although God's word is final, and all I can do is try to make sense of things. Yes the women and children were originally spared, but hold on..

Because he advised the women to tempt the men of Israel to commit idolatry.

Jac, please point me to Balaam mouthing this advice. I'm reading you word for word and I have the good book in my hand, so show me where Balaam mouths this heretical advice and I'll shut right up.

The narrator (which I take to be Moses) tells us that he did. Now, you can say that Moses, or whoever wrote the book, was wrong, and that Balaam didn't. But in that case, the narrator could just as well as had a scene where Balaam tells them the advice. In other words, the statement of Moses tells us that Balaam was responsible. In the end, it is the author, not Balaam himself, that is recounting the events--even all the words that Balaam himself speaks come to us through the narrator. So when the narrator tells us through Moses that Balaam was responsible, then we may as well believe that the narrator believed that Balaam was responsible. Thus, the writer of the Bible believed it, and thus, if you believe the Bible, then you have to assert that Balaam was responsible.

In any case, at the VERY LEAST, you have to acknowledge that this was Israel's (and Moses') reason for doing so.

What would there fate have been? Would they have rather been killed?

What was their fate? How about being taken care of the same way that all women were taken care of in those days? Sure, it's not the kind of life a modern feminist would want to have, but it's the way ALL women were treated. In other words, they treated those women as if they were their own. Sounds pretty compassionate to me.

On the other side, to hold this against them is a damned if you do damned if you don't kind of thing. If they don't kill them, then we hold them responsible for this awful life they have to live (which I'd argue wasn't awful, but actually pretty good, but whatever!); but if they do kill them, then they're just evil, blood thirsty people. I'd say, at the end of the day, the fault isn't with Israel. It was with Balak for putting the girls in that position. Wouldn't you agree?

God bless

[DannyM]

Yes, YHWH is the one who put the oracles in Balaam's mouth; but that is because YHWH is the one blessing Israel (and, for that matter, cursing Balak!). Remember the distinction in elohim an YHWH. Both are certainly names for Israel's God, but YHWH was His covenantal name; it is YHWH, not Elohim, who blesses and curses His people Israel. I'd encourage you, again, to go back and notice the interplay. Balaam speaks to YHWH; God responds to him; and YHWH uses Balaam to bless and curse on behalf of Israel. But in every case, it is God, not YHWH, responds to Balaam's "prayers"

If both are names for God, then what does it matter if YHWH or Elohim responds to Balaam's prayers? Aren't these just two different names for the same God? Balaam was said to be a seer-priest, and was said to be grief-stricken and found weeping after a vision in which a disaster befalls Mesopotamia - although my New Illustrated Companion, like you, doesn't seem to see any injustice, even though the narrative doesn't appear to have Balaam linked to any direct crime for which he deserved to be killed.

The narrator (which I take to be Moses) tells us that he did. Now, you can say that Moses, or whoever wrote the book, was wrong, and that Balaam didn't. But in that case, the narrator could just as well as had a scene where Balaam tells them the advice. In other words, the statement of Moses tells us that Balaam was responsible. In the end, it is the author, not Balaam himself, that is recounting the events--even all the words that Balaam himself speaks come to us through the narrator. So when the narrator tells us through Moses that Balaam was responsible, then we may as well believe that the narrator believed that Balaam was responsible. Thus, the writer of the Bible believed it, and thus, if you believe the Bible, then you have to assert that Balaam was responsible.

I guess Moses knew something which the narrative doesn't make clear. I can handle that. And i don't want to come across as one of these people who has to keep questioning things. I'm happy with your explanation.

What was their fate? How about being taken care of the same way that all women were taken care of in those days? Sure, it's not the kind of life a modern feminist would want to have, but it's the way ALL women were treated. In other words, they treated those women as if they were their own. Sounds pretty compassionate to me.

On the other side, to hold this against them is a damned if you do damned if you don't kind of thing. If they don't kill them, then we hold them responsible for this awful life they have to live (which I'd argue wasn't awful, but actually pretty good, but whatever!); but if they do kill them, then they're just evil, blood thirsty people. I'd say, at the end of the day, the fault isn't with Israel. It was with Balak for putting the girls in that position. Wouldn't you agree?

Makes sense when you put it like this. Thanks Jac.

God bless