Are some things (some people) hopeless?

[WConn]

I spend a lot of time googling questions about the bible and doing personal research. I came across an article by A.W. Tozer which in part stated the following:

" The Bible is not addressed to just anybody. Its message is directed to a chosen few. Whether these few are chosen by God in a sovereign act of election or are chosen because they meet certain qualifying conditions I leave to each one to decide as he may, knowing full well that his decision will be determined by his basic beliefs about such matters as predestination, free will, the eternal decrees and other related doctrines. But whatever may have taken place in eternity, it is obvious what happens in time: Some believe and some do not; some are morally receptive and some are not; some have spiritual capacity and some have not. It is to those who do and are and have that the Bible is addressed. Those who do not and are not and have not will read it in vain."

I find this to be somewhat disturbing. Is he saying that those of us who have difficulty following and understanding the bible are not meant by God to understand? Sounds rather restricted to a predestined group of people.

I would appreciate any of the moderators or others comments on this passage.

W

[Gman]

I find this to be somewhat disturbing. Is he saying that those of us who have difficulty following and understanding the bible are not meant by God to understand? Sounds rather restricted to a predestined group of people.

I would appreciate any of the moderators or others comments on this passage.

W

Hi Walt,

A.W. Tozer is regarded as one of the leading Christians of our time.. I have many books of his. Although this saying by him might sound a little harsh and restrictive, I believe what he is saying here is that the natural man cannot truly understand the Bible by his own reasonings.. In other words, man also needs to be steered by the Holy Spirit when interpreting it. As he states in his last sentence..

"The Bible is a supernatural book and can be understood only by supernatural aid."

http://www.bible-researcher.com/tozer1.html

Otherwise man will understand the Bible under his own private interpretation. Something that we are told was never done in the first place 2 Peter 1:20. If that happens, then it looses it's credibility as being the word of God.

So as long as that person is under the influence of the Holy Spirit, all is well.. And that can happen with anyone who is with God in spirit. Most people have a hard time with it however, because they try to understand it with their own personal human reasonings..

Does that make sense?

[WConn]

I find this to be somewhat disturbing. Is he saying that those of us who have difficulty following and understanding the bible are not meant by God to understand? Sounds rather restricted to a predestined group of people.

I would appreciate any of the moderators or others comments on this passage.

W

Hi Walt,

A.W. Tozer is regarded as one of the leading Christians of our time.. I have many books of his. Although this saying by him might sound a little harsh and restrictive, I believe what he is saying here is that the natural man cannot truly understand the Bible by his own reasonings.. In other words, man also needs to be steered by the Holy Spirit when interpreting it. As he states in his last sentence..

"The Bible is a supernatural book and can be understood only by supernatural aid."

http://www.bible-researcher.com/tozer1.html

Otherwise man will understand the Bible under his own private interpretation. Something that we are told was never done in the first place 2 Peter 1:20. If that happens, then it looses it's credibility as being the word of God.

So as long as that person is under the influence of the Holy Spirit, all is well.. And that can happen with anyone who is with God in spirit. Most people have a hard time with it however, because they try to understand it with their own personal human reasonings..

Does that make sense?

Gman,

The link you used is where I got that paragraph from. It made it seem kind of hopeless for some who would read the bible if they were not meant by God to understand.
The first line of the next paragraph in that reference reads as follows: "Not only does God address His words of truth to those who are able to receive them, He actually conceals their meaning from those who are not." I have had difficulty understanding much of the bible, difficult to understand for someone with multiple college degrees all with honors.
By the same token, I wonder if many of my friends who claim to be christians and to read the bible actually do understand...who knows?

So you are saying that we cant understand it, the bible, with our human reasonings? How then do we know if we are under the spirit or not?

Thank you for your help,

Walt

[Gman]

So you are saying that we cant understand it, the bible, with our human reasonings?

Thank you for your help,

Walt

Not exactly. If we go it alone, that is where we run into problems.. I think God gives each man a choice as to whether or not to believe His Word. Man, however, must cooperate with God to receive what He wants to give us. God decided to require something on the part of man, and faith may be thought of as the simplest thing God could require of man. Faith is man meeting a simple condition that allows God to help him. Faith is made possible by hearing God's Word, because faith requires an object, and God, via His Word, is the object of our trust.

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of [regarding] Christ.

How then do we know if we are under the spirit or not?

Sure.. By testing. This is from another post...

Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is- his good, pleasing and perfect will.

In the above verse, the phrase "test and approve" is translated from the Greek word "dokimazo." The Word of God instructs each Christian to test himself against the standards God has set and not against other men.

Galatians 6:4
Each one should test "dokimazo" his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, for each one should carry his own load.

Each individual Christian can experience satisfying and joyous growth in faith as he tests God's Word for himself.

I Thessalonians 2:4
On the contrary, we speak as men approved [dokimazo] by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests [dokimazo] our hearts.

How does God test our hearts? By entrusting us with the Gospel, which He tells us to act upon.

2 Corinthians 13:5a

Examine [peirazo] yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test [dokimazo] yourselves.

In the above verse, the word "examine" is not dokimazo, but peirazo, which means to attempt or to endeavor, as well as to try or to test. It is usually translated "tempt," as in the gospel accounts of Jesus' temptation (see Matthew 4:1,3; Luke 4:2) but it is also used of God's proving men (Hebrews 11:17). It comes from the root word meaning "topierce," and briefly elaborating upon it at this point may serve to make its definition clearer.

When you want to find out whether or not a cake you are baking is done, you pierce it, usually with a toothpick (or a tire iron, depending upon your culinary experience). Meanwhile, back at the grill, the one cooking the steak does likewise. Why? Because both cooks want to know what's on the inside, (or, you might say, what it's made of) so they examine the object by piercing it."

[waynepii]

I think God gives each man a choice as to whether or not to believe His Word. Man, however, must cooperate with God to receive what He wants to give us. God decided to require something on the part of man, and faith may be thought of as the simplest thing God could require of man. Faith is man meeting a simple condition that allows God to help him. Faith is made possible by hearing God's Word, because faith requires an object, and God, via His Word, is the object of our trust.

That is what I am having trouble understanding. God leaves it up to us to believe in Him or not. He also gave us an intellect by which we can understand our world (this is apparently unique among species). But He makes it difficult for our intellect to discern His existence. We have a book (the Bible) written millenia ago which claims to be inspired by God, but was written, compiled, edited, translated, published, and interpreted by men. Said book "proves" its divine inspiration largely by prophecies of events that have undeniably occurred and miracles that were supposedly performed. But how can we be sure the "prophecies" were not written (or "tweaked" to fit) after the occurrence of the prophesied events and how can we be sure of what actually transpired that was interpreted as "miraculous"? After all, at one time, earthquakes, eclipses, and other perfectly normal events were considered "miracles".

I was raised in a very religious family, went through Christian schools, and at one time was considering going into the clergy. But doubts began to seep in, largely because no one was able to give me compelling answers to relatively simple questions such as the above. I have been trolling both atheist and Christian websites looking for inspiration, and while I dislike the arrogance common on the atheist websites, they do make some very good and logical points.

[Gman]

That is what I am having trouble understanding. God leaves it up to us to believe in Him or not.

Yes, Wayne but He doesn't make robots either.. He gives us choices.

He also gave us an intellect by which we can understand our world (this is apparently unique among species). But He makes it difficult for our intellect to discern His existence.

Or is it that we are making it difficult? I don't think that we always have to "take-it-by-faith" in all things. He did give us intellect, and we should properly use it.

Consider Romans 1:20. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Here we have a verse that says that when we look at creation, we understand them to be the works of God. Now granted we do have other ideas how this world came about, that maybe true, but do we understand that to be ultimate truth? I wouldn't think so..

Also is it just an intellectual thing to understand the things of God? Or is it something else?

We have a book (the Bible) written millenia ago which claims to be inspired by God, but was written, compiled, edited, translated, published, and interpreted by men. Said book "proves" its divine inspiration largely by prophecies of events that have undeniably occurred and miracles that were supposedly performed. But how can we be sure the "prophecies" were not written (or "tweaked" to fit) after the occurrence of the prophesied events and how can we be sure of what actually transpired that was interpreted as "miraculous"? After all, at one time, earthquakes, eclipses, and other perfectly normal events were considered "miracles".

It kind of goes back to these articles again...

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibletru.html
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html

Well we know for a fact that the Old Testament was written before the New Testament. And yet we have all these prophecies of Christ that was fulfilled in the NT.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html

We have a Prophecy of Christ saying that the temple would be destroyed Matthew 24:1-2. In 70 AD that was fulfilled when the Romans sacked the temple..

Scripture is pretty clear that it didn't come from man, although man may have penned it.

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

What I would say is this. I don't think the Bible has every single answer for you and I. But it does provide a framework in which to build our faith on. It may have been inspired by God, but will still need to seek God for wisdom and direction..

I was raised in a very religious family, went through Christian schools, and at one time was considering going into the clergy. But doubts began to seep in, largely because no one was able to give me compelling answers to relatively simple questions such as the above. I have been trolling both atheist and Christian websites looking for inspiration, and while I dislike the arrogance common on the atheist websites, they do make some very good and logical points.

Ok, and what logical points do they have? That man evolved by chance? I wouldn't hang my faith on this... I just wouldn't. Every man has some kind of faith. If it's not in God they simply channel it to something else. Like to yoga, mother nature, the stock market, or even baseball. We make Gods out of our occupation, people, or even things like cars.. What is wrong with making God as part of my faith?

[WConn]

Waynepii, I have much the same difficulties as do you. I went thru the motions as a kid with religion as do most I think. We were essentially told to believe it and not question it, a bad thing in my mind. As a result, perhaps many of us grow away from religious teachings based on a lack of adequate answers and information.

I find the Bible very difficult to read and understand. As a result I find myself reading translations into common English, and even then there is a substantial amount of difficulty
getting the true meaning. I have been a real pain in the neck to some of the moderators here I am sure, asking for information and references so I can come to a conclusion on my own. I guess one of my greatest difficulties is dealing with clergy who abuse people either physically, emotionally or financially. The Catholic priesthood, (although not all) Jim Baker, Jerry Falwell, Robert Tilton and others, who in my constitutionally protected opinion more harm than good are a real turn off.

We need to arrive at a conclusion on our own, based on our own reading and investigation. When I have a question, I pose it to the moderators and I must admit that they do a good
job of coming thru with reasonable answers or references. I am getting there, slowly but surely.

I wish you well.

Walt

[jlay]

I have had difficulty understanding much of the bible, difficult to understand for someone with multiple college degrees all with honors.

Good observation. And this is the problem I have with the reasoning of many here on this board, and have expressed before. They are certainly free to apologize. i love apologetics, and use them to a degree, but it will not save a person. At best it will bring a person to a point of concession. Conceeding that there is a god of some sort. Is this important? Yes. But that is a far cry from salvation. It only addresses the intellect, not the spirit. And one can not intellectually ascent to the Kingdom of God. It is a spiritual work.

I would say to the most learned man, "have you made your way in life only by intellectual ascent, or are there important crossroads where you have gone with your gut instinct?"

"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." (1 Cor 2:14) That is pretty clear. CANNOT. Unable. Incapable.
I don't think this means a person is incapable of understanding. But, that we are incapable of understanding in our natural sense. We must appeal to our spiritual sense. There will never be enough "info" to satisfy, and so the cross will be a "stumbling block." If we insist on grasping the kingdom of God only through natural means then we will meet with frustration. W, this is one of the reasons for my approach with you on another thread. One that pressed the conscience and your spiritual side. You took offense, and rightfully so. The bible is offensive. It has some very harsh things to say about us. We are either offended by it, or we surrender to it.

God resist the proud and gives grace to the humble. If God is spirit and the scriptures are His revelation to mankind, then it would go to figure that His Word is spiritually discerned. The Bible is a spiritual book.

For example W, you believe there is a god of some sort. An intellectual conclusion. Your concerns seem to revolve around the reliability of the Bible.

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being no belief and 10 being certainty, where would you say you are regarding the Bible being the inspired Word of God?

[Gman]

Waynepii, I have much the same difficulties as do you. I went thru the motions as a kid with religion as do most I think. We were essentially told to believe it and not question it, a bad thing in my mind. As a result, perhaps many of us grow away from religious teachings based on a lack of adequate answers and information.

Walt, I think it is good that we question it... Perhaps the old guard was more regimented in their ways, submitting to authority, not asking questions. There intrinsically is nothing wrong with that, but I think we need to question what we believe, and what we believe about ourselves. I think the times have changed somewhat now.

I find the Bible very difficult to read and understand. As a result I find myself reading translations into common English, and even then there is a substantial amount of difficulty
getting the true meaning. I have been a real pain in the neck to some of the moderators here I am sure, asking for information and references so I can come to a conclusion on my own.

Are you reading from the KJV or NIV? I'll admit the KJV can be harder to understand.. Again, no problem here... I think we can steer you in the right direction, but ultimately it is going to come down between you and God and what you need to understand. No one here can turn someone else into a Christian, Christianity is WAY more than that. It's a dance between you and Him. Not to say that we can't help.. We can, but ultimately it is between you and God. It's personal...

I guess one of my greatest difficulties is dealing with clergy who abuse people either physically, emotionally or financially. The Catholic priesthood, (although not all) Jim Baker, Jerry Falwell, Robert Tilton and others, who in my constitutionally protected opinion more harm than good are a real turn off.

Absolutely... Before I turned to Christianity in the 80's it was these speakers that really prevented me from turning to Christianity, which I call "fake" Christianity. But I have also met with some true authentic ones in my life... You know, the ones that don't need an audience when they do their good deeds. They are also out there. I promise you...

We need to arrive at a conclusion on our own, based on our own reading and investigation. When I have a question, I pose it to the moderators and I must admit that they do a good
job of coming thru with reasonable answers or references. I am getting there, slowly but surely.

I wish you well.

Walt

With the help of God, all things are possible... I would say this however, I can't say that we will ever know everything in this world.. I don't think it is going to be possible to have an answer for everything. Some things will perhaps remain a mystery. And that is fine by me.. Perhaps later will they be revealed? That is up to God.

Take your time Walt and Wayne...

Cheers...

[WConn]

I have had difficulty understanding much of the bible, difficult to understand for someone with multiple college degrees all with honors.

Good observation. And this is the problem I have with the reasoning of many here on this board, and have expressed before. They are certainly free to apologize. i love apologetics, and use them to a degree, but it will not save a person. At best it will bring a person to a point of concession. Conceeding that there is a god of some sort. Is this important? Yes. But that is a far cry from salvation. It only addresses the intellect, not the spirit. And one can not intellectually ascent to the Kingdom of God. It is a spiritual work.

I would say to the most learned man, "have you made your way in life only by intellectual ascent, or are there important crossroads where you have gone with your gut instinct?"

"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." (1 Cor 2:14) That is pretty clear. CANNOT. Unable. Incapable.
I don't think this means a person is incapable of understanding. But, that we are incapable of understanding in our natural sense. We must appeal to our spiritual sense. There will never be enough "info" to satisfy, and so the cross will be a "stumbling block." If we insist on grasping the kingdom of God only through natural means then we will meet with frustration. W, this is one of the reasons for my approach with you on another thread. One that pressed the conscience and your spiritual side. You took offense, and rightfully so. The bible is offensive. It has some very harsh things to say about us. We are either offended by it, or we surrender to it.

God resist the proud and gives grace to the humble. If God is spirit and the scriptures are His revelation to mankind, then it would go to figure that His Word is spiritually discerned. The Bible is a spiritual book.

For example W, you believe there is a god of some sort. An intellectual conclusion. Your concerns seem to revolve around the reliability of the Bible.

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being no belief and 10 being certainty, where would you say you are regarding the Bible being the inspired Word of God?

Jlay, on a scale of 1 to 10, I would say I am at a 7. I have been impressed with much of the bible prophecy, CSLewis and Gman have helped immensely with this. The story of Cyrus is quite convincing. I do believe in God, but I did find the OT hard to swallow with all God's admonitions to kill not just the men of sinful ways but their women and children too. Hard to accept from a God who is supposed to be love. The basic answer from the mods and the writings I have read is that these people were sinful and their wifes and children would infect the soldiers of God if they were allowed to live...okay, but still hard to accept to any substantial degree in my mind.

I can believe that much of the Bible is inspired, but there will always be questions in my mind as to parts of the Bible. Let us remember that there were councils of men, bishops and whomsoever who were directed to decide which of the writings were truly the inspired word of God and which were not. Am I not correct? These were men thousands of years ago and I am not as yet convinced that they were truly capable of making such decisions. ARE YOU? Do you put that much trust in those people thousands of years ago? Perhaps you do. You may be far smarter than I, or perhaps far more capable of understanding and seeing the bible for what it is.

W

[WConn]

[


Are you reading from the KJV or NIV? I'll admit the KJV can be harder to understand.. Again, no problem here... I think we can steer you in the right direction, but ultimately it is going to come down between you and God and what you need to understand. No one here can turn someone else into a Christian, Christianity is WAY more than that. It's a dance between you and Him. Not to say that we can't help.. We can, but ultimately it is between you and God. It's personal...

I guess one of my greatest difficulties is dealing with clergy who abuse people either physically, emotionally or financially. The Catholic priesthood, (although not all) Jim Baker, Jerry Falwell, Robert Tilton and others, who in my constitutionally protected opinion more harm than good are a real turn off.

Absolutely... Before I turned to Christianity in the 80's it was these speakers that really prevented me from turning to Christianity, which I call "fake" Christianity. But I have also met with some true authentic ones in my life... You know, the ones that don't need an audience when they do their good deeds. They are also out there. I promise you...

We need to arrive at a conclusion on our own, based on our own reading and investigation. When I have a question, I pose it to the moderators and I must admit that they do a good
job of coming thru with reasonable answers or references. I am getting there, slowly but surely.

I wish you well.

Walt

With the help of God, all things are possible... I would say this however, I can't say that we will ever know everything in this world.. I don't think it is going to be possible to have an answer for everything. Some things will perhaps remain a mystery. And that is fine by me.. Perhaps later will they be revealed? That is up to God.

Take your time Walt and Wayne...

Cheers...

Gman, I am reading the NIV, actually I read much of the NIV on line and I have the Archaeological Study Bible in NIV which I read when I can't get on line during the day, like at lunch or whatever. It was recommended to me and suits me well as it provides some additional insight into the geography and history of the areas being written about in the Bible. It just works for me quite well. I never outgrew the need for pictures.

Walt

[jlay]

Let's focus on the 7.
That is your level of trust in whether the Bible is the inspired word of God. That means you have a 70% level of trust that what this book contains is the voice of God to mankind.

I spoke with you on some things on another thread that seemed to put you off. If you recall, I asked you where I had been biblically unfaithful. You conceeded I had not. I appreciate Gman and Lewis fan helping to answer some of the intellectual questions you have regarding the Bible. However, we would all be remiss if we didn't address the spiritual things the Bible says about you and I.

You are at a 7. Start there. Do you want to know if this book applies directly to your life? Pray from that point. Could you say, "Lord, I confess I don't know everything. Reveal to me my need for you."

I hope you will think on these things. Blessings. Joel

[WConn]

Let's focus on the 7.
That is your level of trust in whether the Bible is the inspired word of God. That means you have a 70% level of trust that what this book contains is the voice of God to mankind.

I spoke with you on some things on another thread that seemed to put you off. If you recall, I asked you where I had been biblically unfaithful. You conceeded I had not. I appreciate Gman and Lewis fan helping to answer some of the intellectual questions you have regarding the Bible. However, we would all be remiss if we didn't address the spiritual things the Bible says about you and I.

You are at a 7. Start there. Do you want to know if this book applies directly to your life? Pray from that point. Could you say, "Lord, I confess I don't know everything. Reveal to me my need for you."

I hope you will think on these things. Blessings. Joel

Jlay, I don't really know if I can answer the question of where I have been Biblically unfaithful. I know I must have been but where and to what degree I am not as yet capable of saying. I don't know the Bible that well as yet. Yes, your approach put me off somewhat, but that's not uncommon for me. I might have a completely different response to you if we were conversing face to face.

I do confess that I do not know everything, if there is one thing I am sure of, that would be it. I speak to God all the time, verbally asking for him to reveal himself to me. I will tell you one thing which I shared with a Mod. I was leaving my favorite coffee/watering hole one Saturday morning and I said, "God, give me some king of sign." I said it in a loud voice. I looked up just at that moment and a skywriter which is common where I live had just written, "trust Jesus." I about dropped a log if you know what I mean. Now I have seen this skywriter write the same thing many times, but I found it amazing that I would say that, look up, and see, "trust Jesus."

I keep reading, studying and asking questions....

Walt

[jlay]

The bible says, "he who has an ear to hear, let him hear."
In other words, "are you listening?" Your response tells me, yes, you are. That's a cool story.

The Bible also says, "examine YOURSELF to see if you are IN the faith." God's Law is like a mirror in which we can look into the darkest corners of our soul.

All of the other stuff really just seems trivial when you KNOW Him.

I hope to talk with you more.

[WConn]

The bible says, "he who has an ear to hear, let him hear."
In other words, "are you listening?" Your response tells me, yes, you are. That's a cool story.

The Bible also says, "examine YOURSELF to see if you are IN the faith." God's Law is like a mirror in which we can look into the darkest corners of our soul.

All of the other stuff really just seems trivial when you KNOW Him.

I hope to talk with you more.

Jlay, I am trying my friend. I am one of those who needs to be sure about everything I do. At times I think I am sure only to find out later I was not, or perhaps it was
the situation.

I am constantly examining myself but I do not know if I am IN the faith.

Walt