Sinful Nature

[For_Narniaaa]

It's really obvious, just looking at the world, that man is sinful. More than that, he's mostly sinful. The Bible says that we are sinful at birth (Psalm 51:5) and that it entered when Adam and Eve sinned. Now, I've read Rich's article about us being condemned for OUR sin, not the sin of Adam and Eve. Yet still, the sin nature was passed on spiritually.

God is the Creator of all, and the Creator of all methods. Why did He decide to let spiritual depravity be passed on from parent to offspring? Why couldn't each person have gotten a clean slate to decide for themselves?

Jesus died to free us from the punishment of sin...but sometimes I wonder why He even let sin be manifest in all of us (by birth) if He wanted us to be redeemed from it...?

Anyway, I'm hoping for some insight, and clarification. I understand that evil is necessary for free will, but I want to know why it had to be dominant from birth.

And, who knows, this might just end up pointing to Isaiah 40:13: "Who has known the mind of the Lord or been able to give him advice?" (NCV)

[cslewislover]

Hey Narniaa . . .

I think as a created "race" or whatever, we have all the same inclination related to our free will. When someone tells you not to push that button, but doesn't tell you why, you normally want to do it anyway just to find out why. God wants us to choose what to do with our free will. That's what it seems to me. That sounds simple, and for me it's hard to get down in writing. If we are constantly being refined, then what is it that is actually being refined, and for what purpose (I don't know - one could ask why God didn't make us refined to begin with)? If Satan weren't here to tempt us, we wouldn't go through this refining process.

Maybe more will come to me, but I just wanted to say that.

[jlay]

God is the Creator of all, and the Creator of all methods. Why did He decide to let spiritual depravity be passed on from parent to offspring? Why couldn't each person have gotten a clean slate to decide for themselves?

I'm not saying this is what you are thinking, but I always laugh because some think that if they were the ones in the garden, they wouldn't have eaten the fruit.

The capacity to sin is there aT birth, but not the sin itself. A newborn child is completely selfish. Not because they choose to be that way. They just are. This is not willful disobedience to God. But it is the reality that this self-centered nature will develop into the capacity to choose right from wrong, and thus willfully disobey. I would say everyone has a forbidden fruit moment. A time where they willfully shake their fist in the face of God, and in a way reenact that moment in the garden for themselves.

If there were no sin, there would be no cross.
If one could accomplish holy living apart from Christ, then there would be no need for a cross.

The plan of the cross was not an afterthought. God was not caught off gaurd in the garden.

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." Eph. 1:4
"the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev. 13:8
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," 1 Tim 1:9

God is reconciling the world to Himself. And that is only accomplished through Christ Jesus. (2 cor 5:19) And the reason things are the way they are is that this is THE PLAN. The way that God has made that harmonizes with His Holy character. That plan is the cross. And the incredible mystery is that everything, I mean everything, from Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, to David, to Babylon, to Rome was all culminating, building, progressing, focusing pointing towards this event called "the cross."

There is no alternative.

[For_Narniaaa]

First, thanks so much for your replies!

If we are constantly being refined, then what is it that is actually being refined, and for what purpose (I don't know - one could ask why God didn't make us refined to begin with)? If Satan weren't here to tempt us, we wouldn't go through this refining process.

Confusing a bit, but I think I get it. If we weren't born depraved, why would the refining process be necessary? Makes sense. And I'm not denying that it's our nature to sin...it is. I just want to know why, because of Adam and Eve, we ALL have to be dominantly sinful. If they had obeyed God, would we be mostly righteous by nature? I'm just wondering why they were given such a deadly, costly responsibility of determining the nature of their offspring. Why can't we decide our own natures? Then again, isn't that what makes it a nature? Can you choose a nature?

I'm not saying this is what you are thinking, but I always laugh because some think that if they were the ones in the garden, they wouldn't have eaten the fruit.

Oh, I would've eaten the fruit, no doubt. But that's because I know I'm sinful and selfish, and would love to be like God. Why did the sin even appeal to Adam and Eve if they didn't have a sinful nature? The fruit would appeal to me because I'm mostly sinful. The choice is still mine to make, but it would undoubtedly be appealing. Why did it appeal to them, if they were mostly...well, nothing?

The capacity to sin is there aT birth, but not the sin itself. A newborn child is completely selfish. Not because they choose to be that way. They just are. This is not willful disobedience to God.

So...being born sinful is not the same as being born condemned? That would explain why people say babies who die go to heaven, even though they had no time to accept Christ.

If there were no sin, there would be no cross.
If one could accomplish holy living apart from Christ, then there would be no need for a cross.

The plan of the cross was not an afterthought. God was not caught off gaurd in the garden.

Sin entering the world wasn't really what I was wondering about...I wonder why we all have to be born sinful, without our consent. Why was it that Adam and Eve's failure made us mostly evil?

Maybe it can be asked like this: Are we mostly evil because it is our nature, or is it our nature because we are mostly evil?

I'm just curious as to why God decided that one man's sin would determine the overall nature of His future creatures. It's our choice to give in to temptation, but the Bible says sin is there in us at birth. Why do we have to be born with the bad thing instead of the good thing?

God is reconciling the world to Himself. And that is only accomplished through Christ Jesus. (2 cor 5:19) And the reason things are the way they are is that this is THE PLAN. The way that God has made that harmonizes with His Holy character. That plan is the cross. And the incredible mystery is that everything, I mean everything, from Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, to David, to Babylon, to Rome was all culminating, building, progressing, focusing pointing towards this event called "the cross."

There is no alternative.

I know the cross is important. Direly important. It's important because man does need a Savior. I am not denying that man is evil and sinful. That's an obvious fact. I'm just looking at the truth and wondering, "Why?" It's incredible that God delivered us. It's beyond my scope of understanding of love...seriously. But why did we have to be born mostly evil? Is it just because of Adam and Eve?

[Jac3510]

J had a good answer, but let me do something I never do and give a VERY short answer to the OP:

When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. (Gen 5:3)

We are in Adam's image, and Adam's image is fallen. That means we are fallen. When you trust in Christ, you are born again, being put (spiritually) in His image. At the resurrection, you body will also be in His image, which will do away with the sin nature.

Purdy simple, I think

[For_Narniaaa]

J had a good answer, but let me do something I never do and give a VERY short answer to the OP:

When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. (Gen 5:3)

We are in Adam's image, and Adam's image is fallen. That means we are fallen. When you trust in Christ, you are born again, being put (spiritually) in His image. At the resurrection, you body will also be in His image, which will do away with the sin nature.

Purdy simple, I think

Seriously, as soon as you said "born again", something just clicked and it all made sense. Because before, I was wondering why God would allow the sinful nature to passed on if He truly wanted us to be redeemed. It seemed like a weird way of having an excuse to redeem us. But now I get it: God created us to be in some image, of some kind. When we aren't born again in His image, we are fallen, because the only other image to be born into is Adam's. Adam was the rare case when he was made in God's image first, and then fell. We are fallen, but can be born again.

The only question that still remains for me is this: Why do we have to be made in Adam's image? Couldn't God have created us with a fresh start, like Adam had? Adam wasn't made in Adam's fallen image, obviously...

[warhoop]

The only question that still remains for me is this: Why do we have to be made in Adam's image? Couldn't God have created us with a fresh start, like Adam had? Adam wasn't made in Adam's fallen image, obviously...

This may not be the answer you want to hear, but that's just how it works. Genesis says we are made in His image, after His likeness. To say that the Fall tarnished that image would be an understatement, but we do still bear the image and likeness. As created beings and not creators ourselves, we can only reproduce our image and likeness, proverbial warts and all. Each creature was only given the ability to make its own kind. That's why you will never give birth to a duck, that's not how it works. And although Adam started pure, he chose sin... and that's what we have inherited, the ability to choose. Thus to a certain degree, we start with that same purity, but we will always choose sin, as Adam did. Indeed, (let's fire up those keyboards) had human beings not chosen sin then God would not be glorified.

[Jac3510]

Like begets like, Narnia. God could well have created other people in His image in an unfallen state, but they couldn't have come from Adam. They would have been a "fresh batch" of people made from dirt like Adam.

But God wanted to save the Adamic race. Thus, the whole biblical story and the need for Jesus.

[DannyM]

God is the Creator of all, and the Creator of all methods. Why did He decide to let spiritual depravity be passed on from parent to offspring? Why couldn't each person have gotten a clean slate to decide for themselves?

Hey Narnia, I believe *we do* have a clean slate. When the text talks of sin entering the world, I take it to mean that the gates of sin are open to the world, and the possibility of sin is out there. It is still very much in our control, isn't it? When Adam picked from "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" God knew he would do this, and even says "...there, man is now like us, knowing good from evil." It was all about knowing good from evil, and we do. Adam only did what was expected of him; and if he hadn't done it (which is an impossibility) then we wouldn't know good from evil and there'd be anarchy and carnage, surely?

Hope this makes some kind of sense

God bless

[ageofknowledge]

We're born into the world with a sin nature. We are going to sin. That is a fact. But like Danny said, it's not an excuse. Also like Danny said, much of what we do is within our choice. But we can develop sin addictions that require us to get outside help to overcome. They can be serious enough that this can take much dedication, commitment, and work as part of a recovery group maybe even with counseling and a lot of prayer and support to overcome.

I've met people that never had a chance so know what you're talking about. Men who when they were little boys, their criminal fathers got them hooked shooting meth into their arms and encouraging them to steal and sell drugs. They were already lost tragic juvenile criminal addicts by the time they were 12 years old. To see these men living Christian lives today free of porn, drugs, stealing, etc.. and working, paying taxes, etc... is a miracle in my estimation.

Most don't have it like that. I certainly didn't. But you certainly can be born to lose in this world. Given a set of circumstances almost designed to destroy you even before adulthood. It's not a fairytale world. I would never bring a child into it. Way too evil imo. But that's my best thinking not Gods.

[DannyM]

We're born into the world with a sin nature. We are going to sin. That is a fact. But like Danny said, it's not an excuse. Also like Danny said, much of what we do is within our choice. But we can develop sin addictions that require us to get outside help to overcome. They can be serious enough that this can take much dedication, commitment, and work as part of a recovery group maybe even with counseling and a lot of prayer and support to overcome.

I've met people that never had a chance so know what you're talking about. Men who when they were little boys, their criminal fathers got them hooked shooting meth into their arms and encouraging them to steal and sell drugs. They were already lost tragic juvenile criminal addicts by the time they were 12 years old. To see these men living Christian lives today free of porn, drugs, stealing, etc.. and working, paying taxes, etc... is a miracle in my estimation.

Most don't have it like that. I certainly didn't. But you certainly can be born to lose in this world. Given a set of circumstances almost designed to destroy you even before adulthood. It's not a fairytale world. I would never bring a child into it. Way too evil imo. But that's my best thinking not Gods.

Hey AOK, don't wish to divert the OP's thread here, but wanted to say I know of many youngsters in pretty much the same predicament. I know of a mother selling Heroin to her 11 year old son. I kid you not. Only a minority truly escape this evil menace - one of my best friends was a Heroin addict, OD'd about 12 times, was rock bottom. He is now a drugs and alcohol councilor in a Christian rehab...Oh, and he's now the most passionate Christian I know. Truly a miracle!

God bless ... sorry Narnia

[ageofknowledge]

We're born into the world with a sin nature. We are going to sin. That is a fact. But like Danny said, it's not an excuse. Also like Danny said, much of what we do is within our choice. But we can develop sin addictions that require us to get outside help to overcome. They can be serious enough that this can take much dedication, commitment, and work as part of a recovery group maybe even with counseling and a lot of prayer and support to overcome.

I've met people that never had a chance so know what you're talking about. Men who when they were little boys, their criminal fathers got them hooked shooting meth into their arms and encouraging them to steal and sell drugs. They were already lost tragic juvenile criminal addicts by the time they were 12 years old. To see these men living Christian lives today free of porn, drugs, stealing, etc.. and working, paying taxes, etc... is a miracle in my estimation.

Most don't have it like that. I certainly didn't. But you certainly can be born to lose in this world. Given a set of circumstances almost designed to destroy you even before adulthood. It's not a fairytale world. I would never bring a child into it. Way too evil imo. But that's my best thinking not Gods.

Hey AOK, don't wish to divert the OP's thread here, but wanted to say I know of many youngsters in pretty much the same predicament. I know of a mother selling Heroin to her 11 year old son. I kid you not. Only a minority truly escape this evil menace - one of my best friends was a Heroin addict, OD'd about 12 times, was rock bottom. He is now a drugs and alcohol councilor in a Christian rehab...Oh, and he's now the most passionate Christian I know. Truly a miracle!

God bless ... sorry Narnia

A lot of people die in or as a result of that condition. I'm glad your friend got out. I've watched mothers pass out clean needles to their dependent children so they wouldn't catch aids when they shot their meth. Those years, many years ago, when I wandered the high deserts of California after my early but honorable discharge from the military (2 more months and I would have got VA medical gosh darn) before I became a Christian were eye opening to say the least. I wish I could forget the things I saw. I think I influenced a few but not most. The devils hand was too tight on them. The worst ones, next to the adults that preyed on minors, were the gangmembers on the lam from Los Angeles. Evil people. The stories I have.

[For_Narniaaa]

Hey all,

Thanks so much for your replies. It's making a lot more sense now. Because it all really boils down to...Christ. Even if we have a sin nature, the choice of choosing Him to cover it all is still there: there's no excuse for not accepting Him. I guess I've just really been questioning morality lately...probably from all of the crazy lies plastered everywhere. It's hard to shut them out sometimes, and I get wondering, "What if they're right? What if it's not all that bad?" Dangerous thinking, too...it's just that everyone seems to be so sure that what they believe is true. It can be unsettling, because it makes me wonder if I'm not seeing something they are.

I guess it really boils down to the fact that I'm trying to break away from just believing what my parents believe and really trying to find what I believe. Every question I have, God shows up. I have more than enough evidence for Him. But it's like an addiction now...I can't STOP questioning.

Whew. Wow, I really just intending this to be a post thanking everyone, and now look. Digression much? So anyway, thanks again and God bless for your time.