Christ's Divinity

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

Darwin Rocks:

Maybe it comes down to interpretation. I mean is Christ's divinity in The Bible really Divinity? Or is it symbolic of the idea that maybe his teachings are the only ones that really need to be followed. However this debate should be left for another post.

He suggested this question be put in a new thread....so I did it

Anyway, as I'm supposed to be taking notes like a madman, since they're being graded tomorrow and they're one part of my term paper grade, I'm keeping it short....

Christ's divinity in the Bible:

1) Prophecies say God would be born of a virgin....which Mary was
2) Miracles-raising people from the dead, healing, throwing out demons (even Jews admitted He performed miracles, though they said His power was from Satan).
3) He indirectly said so in so many ways, such as He said nobody gets to the Father except through Him, if you know Him you know His Father, His cry to God as His Father while on the cross, God saying He was His Son (this is my Son, in whom I am well pleased)(I think that's what God said....), and many more.

[Darwin_Rocks]

Ah I smell another debate coming on...

1) Prophecies say God would be born of a virgin....which Mary was

There is no evidence of this except from the Biblical perspective. For all we know, Mary could have lied... I know it goes against Christianity, and that Mary's virginity is a main argument to your cause but we need to take into account that a historical source is subject to all types of evidence especially when it is a secondary source such as the Bible.

2) Miracles-raising people from the dead, healing, throwing out demons (even Jews admitted He performed miracles, though they said His power was from Satan).

This is a somewhat stickier issue. Perhaps the question should be, did Jesus REALLY raise people from the dead? Perhaps they were in a Coma, perhaps even Jesus thought they were dead but they really werent. I would even go so far as to say that Jesus could have FAKED it, but I dont think someone who could preach love as well as he did would be capable of such a thing so I wont go there.

As for demonic possession could these be early cases of Schizophrenia or Psychosis?

The power of suggestion has led to people getting burns from objects that aren't hot, so could the reverse happen? Could the power of suggestion be enough to heal someone?

This is all speculation of course, but I think it is justified speculation seeing as the enormity of Jesus' claim.

He indirectly said so in so many ways, such as He said nobody gets to the Father except through Him, if you know Him you know His Father, His cry to God as His Father while on the cross, God saying He was His Son (this is my Son, in whom I am well pleased)(I think that's what God said....), and many more.

Ah yes but Hitler also said a lot of things, and a lot of people believed him but in the end look where that got them (I realise that comparing Jesus to Hitler is fairly stupid but it's still valid in that the amount of people whom initially believe you does not equate to your ability to actually live up to what you say you are*.)

I realise that these above mentioned things are going to offend a lot of people but I think that they are all questions that need to be asked before people (well me a at least) accept Christianity and furthermore Jesus divinity.



* By the way Kmart, I realise that this argument sort of contradicts me argument about good not being relative and that this is going to be my archilles heel when placing your reply post but I still stand by it. I believe there is a universal concept of good and bad and just because in moments of our history there are examples of the majority of people following evil leaders does not mean that good is relative due to the secondary factors influencing public opinion (propaganda, deception) which was a heavy evident of Hitler's coming to power.

[Mastermind]

There is no evidence of this except from the Biblical perspective. For all we know, Mary could have lied... I know it goes against Christianity, and that Mary's virginity is a main argument to your cause but we need to take into account that a historical source is subject to all types of evidence especially when it is a secondary source such as the Bible.

Oh really? How do you plan on proving or disproving the virgin birth? Do you plan to take a time machine back and give Mary a virginity test?

This is a somewhat stickier issue. Perhaps the question should be, did Jesus REALLY raise people from the dead? Perhaps they were in a Coma, perhaps even Jesus thought they were dead but they really werent. I would even go so far as to say that Jesus could have FAKED it, but I dont think someone who could preach love as well as he did would be capable of such a thing so I wont go there.

As for demonic possession could these be early cases of Schizophrenia or Psychosis?

The power of suggestion has led to people getting burns from objects that aren't hot, so could the reverse happen? Could the power of suggestion be enough to heal someone?

This is all speculation of course, but I think it is justified speculation seeing as the enormity of Jesus' claim.

Please tell me how the hell you can fake raising somebody from the death. And how do you use the power of suggestion to heal psychosis if the person is insane and likely doesnt know what its doing?

Ah yes but Hitler also said a lot of things, and a lot of people believed him but in the end look where that got them (I realise that comparing Jesus to Hitler is fairly stupid but it's still valid in that the amount of people whom initially believe you does not equate to your ability to actually live up to what you say you are*.)

I realise that these above mentioned things are going to offend a lot of people but I think that they are all questions that need to be asked before people (well me a at least) accept Christianity and furthermore Jesus divinity.

http://www.tektonics.org

you can start your search here.

[Kurieuo]

On the old board, the issue of evidence for Christ was discussed. There are certain facts accepted by most scholars, and so one needs to posit an explanation that explains these facts. Now I won't go into them, but wienerdog did a good job on the old board at http://discussions.godandscience.org/ol ... php?t=2473.

Kurieuo

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

Sadly, you pasted this when I WANT TO GO TO BED! So this will be a somewhat bad reply...because that which is done quickly is done poorly...

especially when it is a secondary source such as the Bible.

A primary source is someone who was at the scene of the crime...and a secondary source is someone who heard about the crime from a primary source (I'm getting primary/secondary straight in my head, one moment...and I feel like typing, enjoy my thinking).

You can't make a general claim such as this. The Bible is not one book....it is 66 books. Genesis is a secondary source, since Moses was writing the history the Holy Spirit was telling him (or maybe he listenened to his relatives, I don't know at the moment). Parts of the Gospels are secondary sources (the disciples obviously weren't around when Mary was pregnant or when Jesus debated with priests at 12), but the rest are primary (with maybe some exception you could dig up in some section). Darn I'm off topic.

This is a somewhat stickier issue. Perhaps the question should be, did Jesus REALLY raise people from the dead? Perhaps they were in a Coma, perhaps even Jesus thought they were dead but they really werent. I would even go so far as to say that Jesus could have FAKED it, but I dont think someone who could preach love as well as he did would be capable of such a thing so I wont go there.

In the case of Lazarus, Jesus waited till Lazarus was nice and dead....so when his tomb was opened, EVERYONE smelled that he was dead. And as to your idea he might have faked it....?

As for demonic possession could these be early cases of Schizophrenia or Psychosis?

Or is it quite possibly the other way around? That is a question that I for one have-could a person who hears voices really be hearing demons talk to him? The demons would drive the person crazy (after Jesus removed demons from one man, they possessed a heard of pigs, who quickly drowned themselves....). And, also, the fact is that Jesus instantly took away all the problems-convulsions, collapsing, and other problems I think I'll look up later.

The power of suggestion has led to people getting burns from objects that aren't hot, so could the reverse happen? Could the power of suggestion be enough to heal someone?

The fact, though, is that you don't read about Jesus sitting down, talking to this person, who eventually gets better-he instantly did it. So, there is basically no time for the power of suggestion to come into play, and I'm sure there is a better defense than my piddly one...

Ah yes but Hitler also said a lot of things, and a lot of people believed him but in the end look where that got them

I don't want to act like I'm ignoring that, so I'll say this has nothing to do with the topic of Jesus' divinity. You were referring to the lack of evidence in the Bible of Jesus being God (or something to that extent), so I just recalled some of the many things He said that basically said, "I am God."

I haven't had time to look up more stuff, so that's basically all I got-I'm tired, off to bed soon.

Darwin_Rocks, I haven't read the book yet, but I know what it is about. Try and Read The Everlasting Man. The 1st part, I recall, shows that man is not just an animal, and the 2nd part shows that Jesus wasn't just a really smart guy.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

Forgive Mastermind, as Adam Sandler said in Waterboy, he's aggressive because he doesn't brush his teeth and he's got so many painful cavities, it makes him angry.

[Darwin_Rocks]

Or is it quite possibly the other way around? That is a question that I for one have-could a person who hears voices really be hearing demons talk to him? The demons would drive the person crazy (after Jesus removed demons from one man, they possessed a heard of pigs, who quickly drowned themselves....).

Interesting, I never really thought of it that way. It's easy to accept only Scientific answers. But now that you mention it this could be just a Scientific excuse. I'm going to look more into this and post my findings at a later date.

All your other arguments are justified as well, more research needs to be done on my behalf before I even to question the problems of evidence within the Bible.

consider this a To Be Continued....

[Battlehelmet]

I like to see list of these "supposed" problems of evidence in the Bible Darwin_Rocks mentioned.

To make a formal poll and Skeptic question then answer thread.

Just a suggestion.

Noticed the forum is a little slow, but's ok..Gives us more to think and relax here.

[Poetic_Soul]

Why would any of the disciples and apostles die such a horrible death? Peter is known to be crucified upside down. All for the sake of the gospel and Christ divinity.

[Prodigal Son]

darwinrocks,

i don't know of any lepers, paraplegics, or schizophrenics that have been healed by suggestion (neither does modern psychology/medicine). all of these illnesses are incurable. so if Jesus cured them (and there is more than enough proof that he did), he must have been divine.

i do believe that many of the demonic possessions were epilipsy or schizophrenia: i remember a passage in the bible where one of the disciples asked why he couldn't drive out a demon by the ususal means and Jesus replies that "this is a different kind (of demon)"...something to that affect. i'm sure that the people of that time wouldn't understand an explanation of schizophrenia or epilepsy (we barely understand both illnesses now), so Jesus didn't bother explaining the difference between them and demonic possession. still, since these illnesses are incurable, Jesus would still have been demonstrating divinity by curing them.

finally, even if the dead that Jesus raised were in comas (which i think is a funny idea), bringing anyone out of a coma on command is also a demonstration of divinity. but, lazarus was definately dead...and i'm sure the others Jesus raised were very dead, too...the people back then were slightly more innocent than us when it comes to medicine, but they weren't stupid. they knew what dead was just as well as any of us. it's pretty hard faking death. have you ever tried it?

[Battlehelmet]

Why would any of the disciples and apostles die such a horrible death? Peter is known to be crucified upside down. All for the sake of the gospel and Christ divinity.

The sake of being "martyred" or "killed" for Christ in pain and suffering for Him GREATLY outweighs the pro's and con's of the persecution and so on..

Christ did say he was coming back..I truly believe that, maybe not in the this generation or next, but I will hold steadfast to the teaching of my Lord. Amen

I presume most don't quite understand the eternity or eternal qualites of Christ as the God of Abraham. Which is why so many doubt his 2nd coming because of lack of simple faith in Him.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

To whoever said Jesus said something about there being a different type of demon-I'm not sure you're thinking right (not that you're crazy), but as I remember, he said because they weren't doing it in His name or something. Look up the verse for us, I'm lazy.

[Battlehelmet]

To whoever said Jesus said something about there being a different type of demon-I'm not sure you're thinking right (not that you're crazy), but as I remember, he said because they weren't doing it in His name or something. Look up the verse for us, I'm lazy.

What are to talking about exactly ATKS? You would have to be a little more specific than that. Noticed you mention a singular verse. What is that in reference to?

Jesus was never a "different type of demon". Where did you get that idea from?

1Corinthians12.3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

[Dan]

To whoever said Jesus said something about there being a different type of demon-I'm not sure you're thinking right (not that you're crazy), but as I remember, he said because they weren't doing it in His name or something. Look up the verse for us, I'm lazy.

What are to talking about exactly ATKS? You would have to be a little more specific than that. Noticed you mention a singular verse. What is that in reference to?

Jesus was never a "different type of demon". Where did you get that idea from?

1Corinthians12.3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Reading comprehension man, he was talking about mental disorders and how Jesus healed them

[Prodigal Son]

i said the "different type demon thing." the verses are: Mark 9:14-29. i was wrong in that Jesus didn't say that there are "different" kinds of demons, but he does state, "This kind can come out only by prayer." the entire passage describes an epileptic attack. maybe the apostles couldn't drive out the demons because there were none. only Jesus knew that, and, like always, did what needed to be done!