No point

[ageofknowledge]

Mabye it's like Balaam and his donkey . . .your computer is like the donkey trying to save you from arguing against God!

OMG I can't believe you said that! I shall pray for you.

[Gabrielman]

Jac, sorry it took so long to answer your next question, I have been a little preoccupied.

Can a person deceive themselves about whether or not they have believed? What I mean is, suppose someone says they believe, but they don't have enough good works. Is it possible that they've only deceived themselves and that they really don't believe after all?

One must ask what is enough good works? In the parable of the workers in the vineyard Matthew 20:1-16 Jesus makes the point that even those with the least works who came last at the end of their lives would be in heaven (rewarded). I believe wittnessing is works, and showing your faith openly. Can one decive themselves into thinking they were saved? Hmm... I am inclined to say yes based on personal experience, but I cannot say that as a matter of fact. I am just going off of what I have read and what I have been through myself. I hope that answers your question.
God bless!

[Jac3510]

OK, so if you are inclined to say a person can deceive themselves about being saved, then you are acknowledging that a person may think they are saved when they are actually not. How do you know that you aren't deceived? You do you know that you are really saved?

[Gabrielman]

I believe there is a difference if feeling when you are truely saved. I believe the Holy Spirit will enter you, but I also believe you can become so convaluded that you think you are saved. You can convince yourself, without a change of heart or behavior, that you are saved. Just like if you keep telling yourself you are intellegent, you may come to believe it even if you weren't (not saying you aren't, just an expample). There are pleanty of "christians" out there. They pretend to believe in Christ and believe themselves saved, yet there is no change in the before salvation and after. I have meet people like that, and I used to be like that. There has to be a difference in your life to know you are saved. That is Biblical, and I know you know that. Check the verses I gave you, if there is a difference it will be made obvious. Fakers don't serve God in any way, they don't witness, don't acknowledge that they are Christians around atheists or other faiths, and in general don't care about what is going on in the world if it is anti-Christian. I know I am saved now, there is a difference in my life. I know I am saved, and no one can tell me otherwise. My life is no longer a life unchanged.
God bless!

[Jac3510]

I believe there is a difference if feeling when you are truely saved. I believe the Holy Spirit will enter you, but I also believe you can become so convaluded that you think you are saved. You can convince yourself, without a change of heart or behavior, that you are saved. Just like if you keep telling yourself you are intellegent, you may come to believe it even if you weren't (not saying you aren't, just an expample). There are pleanty of "christians" out there. They pretend to believe in Christ and believe themselves saved, yet there is no change in the before salvation and after. I have meet people like that, and I used to be like that. There has to be a difference in your life to know you are saved. That is Biblical, and I know you know that. Check the verses I gave you, if there is a difference it will be made obvious. Fakers don't serve God in any way, they don't witness, don't acknowledge that they are Christians around atheists or other faiths, and in general don't care about what is going on in the world if it is anti-Christian. I know I am saved now, there is a difference in my life. I know I am saved, and no one can tell me otherwise. My life is no longer a life unchanged.
God bless!

I understand this, and I'm not saying that you aren't saved. I'm trying to help you see an inconsistency in your thinking.

Look, you "know" you are saved, but you also think that people can convince themselves that they are saved who really aren't. How do you know your feeling is any more real than theirs? What makes YOUR claim to know that you are REALLY saved any different from theirs? How do you know that you haven't deceived yourself? Isn't the problem with being deceived is that you don't know it?

So, again, Gab--how do YOU know that YOU are saved if people can be absolutely convinced they are saved but turn out to be wrong. What makes you think that you are not wrong when others are?

[Gabrielman]

It's not that I am saying I am not wrong. In the case of "can you decive yourself about salvation" I believe so because I was once like that. Ofcouse God called me to Him and I am now where I need to be, but this is all based on personal experience. I might be wrong on everyone else having the chance of deciving themselves, but it seems like that at times with the "church on suday only" people. So I guess the answer here is that now I can feel God, before I could not, yet I still thought I was saved. I believed myself saved, yet I did not act it. I did not feel God's presence and didn't have his Holy Spirit in me, now things are different. Like I said maybe it is just personal experience, what do you think? I am asking because I realized I cannot base everyone else off of my own experinece. Like I said it is my own experience, I believe it is possible to decive yourself about a lot of things, but I also believe there is a difference in truth and lie, and that it is noticeable. It's like if I thought I knew everything about a subject, and truely believed I did not lack knowledge in that subject. Then let's say I found out I was wrong, that there was more out there I did not know. In that case I had convinced myself I knew it all, and I believed it, but I was wrong. That's about all I got on this, like I said probably just a personal experience.
God bless!
One question to ask you, cause I don't know, is can one falsely accept Christ? What I mean is, is it possible to confess Christ with you tounge but to not accept Him in your heart? Thanks in advance for the answer.
After some thought (and coffee ) I must conced this point to you. I was thinking that if you truely believe you are saved, then you are in fact saved, right? So I guess one could no decive themselves if this were true.
However I will not conced the point that faith without works is dead, that is written in the Bible plain and clear and I have even shown this in verses I gave you. If we are saved there should be a difference. So I was wrong about the being able to decive yourself about salvation, that said, one will change when they accept Christ. Look at the pegans who were lead to faith by Paul. They were filled with the Holy Spirit and were moved by faith to work for God. What is works? Well that I would suppose is what God's plan is on your life. Read the verses I gave you about this, and 1 Thessalonians 1:3-5
God bless!

[jlay]

After some thought (and coffee ) I must conced this point to you. I was thinking that if you truely believe you are saved, then you are in fact saved, right? So I guess one could no decive themselves if this were true.

I don't think that is where Jac is driving. We know there are people who think they are saved and are not because Jesus said it. Trust the word, not your own suspicions. I don't trust myself to know I am saved. I trust Christ.

One question to ask you, cause I don't know, is can one falsely accept Christ? What I mean is, is it possible to confess Christ with you tounge but to not accept Him in your heart?

Most modern evangelism methods lend themselves to this. Many people are saved in spite of modern evangelical methods.

"All heads are bowed, and eyes closed. Now repeat this prayer after me, and believe it in your heart.
Dear God, I'm sorry. I'm a sinner. I want to accept you into my heart. Amen. Friend, if you said that prayer, your going to heaven."

Did Jesus do anything like this? No.

Jesus taught of an abiding relationship in John 15. Abiding "in" Him. Paul used the term "In Christ" 92 times in His letters. There is now no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus.
If anyone is IN Christ, he is a new creation.

[Gabrielman]

Jlay, I agree with what you said, I was simply saying that if one believes they are saved, then they are saved. I was before not thinking that and I wasn't thinking right. Thanks for answering my question btw. I have a few more, but this isn't the thread for them.
Thanks again!
God bless!