??Confused??

[cslewislover]

I believe in predestination, but the Lord also said that whoever believes in Him will not perish. If you believe in Him and want to be with Him, how could He deny you? Are you saying that you aren't born again because you haven't had an obvious born again experience?

[imoneru?]

I believe in predestination, but the Lord also said that whoever believes in Him will not perish. If you believe in Him and want to be with Him, how could He deny you? Are you saying that you aren't born again because you haven't had an obvious born again experience?

I believe that is part of the problem, but it goes much deeper than that. I have been told [and the bible pretty much backs up what I have been told] that when a person has been "Born Again" there is a change in his life, I mean he/she has different interests, is less self centered,would rather give $50.00 a month to less fortunate people such as the poor little kids at St Judes Children's Hospital then spend it on cell phones or other toys he dosn't need, and he finds that his interests are more spiritual than carnal, that sort of thing, I can't really discribe it because I only had it one time in my life and than it only lasted for nine days, I wont bore you with the details as it was way back in 1978 and had to do with a desire to commit suicide. Anyway what I had then I no longer have so it dosn't matter.

What does matter is that I am self centered,angry at a God who if He wished could snap His fingers and heal my wife [who for over 15 years now wakes up suffering, and goes to bed the same way, with nothing to look forward to but more of the same the next day], I find myself throwing pity partys because I can't leave her by herself and go fishing or cycling like I used to, I have no desire to go to church any more as it seems more like a social club than a worship center. If you put all these things to gather I believe you will have to admit it dosn't sound like a person who has been "Born Again"...Ray

[cslewislover]

Well, there's no doubt you're in a tough situation. Are you in an area where there are no other churches? The churches I've been to, and the one I go to now, have groups where people help each other. I could easily see some of them taking turns coming over sometimes to be with your wife while you do some other things. Would you feel too guilty leaving her? Would she not understand? Just wondering.

[imoneru?]

Well, there's no doubt you're in a tough situation. Are you in an area where there are no other churches? The churches I've been to, and the one I go to now, have groups where people help each other. I could easily see some of them taking turns coming over sometimes to be with your wife while do some other things. Would you feel too guilty leaving her? Would she not understand? Just wondering.

Yes there are other churches in the area of the one I have attended for about 15 years,but I don't believed I mantioned it but I'm 84 years old (my wife of 61 years is 83) and most of the friends that I made at church have passed away or are in nursing homes, so I have very little in common with the current church members, due to age and the fact I don't partisipate in the dinners they serve after services, or the trips they take to various places. Than there is the problem of offending the members I have served with as a greater, usher, and substitute adult class sunday school teacher, If I leave after having attending that particular church as long as I have they will get the idea that I don't care to share their company any more, which isn't the case. There have been two or three members who have offered to stay with my wife but she really dosn't care for company, for when you hurt all the time and your body is full of pain medicine that makes you tired and sleepy most of the time she would rather just sleep or watch T.V. Than as you know you have the church visitors who are well meaning but spout bible verses at you and assure you that God loves you and every thing will be better by and by Etc. Etc. Thats like telling a greaving Mother that "God took her baby because He loves her/him more than she did, and she will see her again some day" Give me a break.
I tried attending a non denominational church for about four months (this was maybe 3 years ago) but couldn't buy the healing part of the service where the minister touches someone on the forhead, they fall backwards, and a couple of elders catch them before they hit the floor (I have often wondered how many would fall backwards if they knew no one was there to catch them) during that four month period I never saw anyones physical body healed.

I'm really not blaming anyone, we all get old, get sick, and die. Its a fact of life, it's just a rotten shame we can't just all die in our sleep, as many have. Yes we are all sinners and we have to pay the penilty for that sin, but why does a loving God decide to allow Satan to punish one person with constant pain for years prior to death and decide to take others in their sleep after having lived a pain free life (sush as I have) for 84 years and counting???...May You Be Blessed with a long and Pain Free Life....Ray

[imoneru?]

Hello again madscientist! How have you been?

And was your question mainly if those who have the possibility but refuse (pride? mainly... or a lack of good arguments?) OR u meant those who never heard?

I'm talking about those who have died without even hearing about Jesus/The bible etc...what would happen to them? Would they have an excuse since they have never heard of Jesus?

Well if Paul knew what he was talking about and I believe we can assume he did, he mentiones in his letter to the Romans in the first chapter and verses 21 through 25 that no one has an excause for nature itself gives evidence of God and when you speak of God you are indirectly speaking of the trinity which involves Jesus.

I heard an interesting point given onetime, I don't recall the author, but he said, "If not knowing anything about Jesus as He is reveled in the bible will keep you from going to Hell, Than why don't we burn every bible on the face of the earth, and get rid of all the ministers,evanglists,priests,rabbi"s(Messianic Jews) and any others who proclaim His (Jesus) life,death,and resurrection and we will then all be able to go to Heaven for lack of knowledge".

I would assume that there a number of verses in the bible that would disclaim this theory but I can't think of any off hand
so I will leave that to the more learned members of the forum...Ray

[cslewislover]

I don't understand these awful things either, and I get upset that God would allow children to die in horrible manners (a couple of years ago here, some kids died in the family van, being burned to death, while their parents tried to get them out; also, some died in another area, being buried by dirt in a mud slide - yet these things happen everyday around the world). One of my old pastors has a wife who is slowly and painfully dying from MS. I don't mean to be mean, but from what I know of the disease and what she has gone through, that if it were not for some advanced treatments, she would be with the Lord by now (and she wouldn't be suffering through all her pain). I know I don't want to live like that, I don't want to be in pain and be immobilized for years; thanks for your prayer of blessing. Anyway, do you get to be with anyone else? Visiting with others can be very comforting, of course. We are God's hands and heart in the world.

One thing that I find comforting, and I believe it is a true thing, is Julian of Norwich's Revelation of (Divine) Love. In it, she says that we will be rewarded in heaven for the suffering we experienced here on earth. CS Lewis believed her revelations were legitimate, and I've seen her book in Calvary Chapel bookstores (Calvary's being fairly conservative evangelical churches). Considering her authorship, the background of the book, and that it does not contradict the bible, I see no reason to not believe the revelations are from Jesus, as she claims.

Otherwise, yes, it's a hard, mysterious thing. I'm going to go ahead and reproduce here another page from GodQuestions?org on exactly your issue, but some of it, at least, will not be new to you. The Lord bless you and your wife. http://www.gotquestions.org/suffering-death.html


Question: "Why do so many people have to experience terrible suffering before death?"

Answer: Suffering is a universal part of our humanity that exists in a fallen world. The question of why there is suffering in death for some and not as much for others is really not answerable. For we reckon things from our human experience and do not understand the infinite mind and purpose of God. In the great faith chapter, we often read of the heroes of the faith but neglect the litany of those unnamed who suffered for their faith (Hebrews 11:33-40). These all died suffering deaths yet are heroes of the faith. They are unnamed and unsung among men, but God values their suffering and includes them in this great chapter of faith as a lesson to us.

Suffering and death are part of the curse of sin on the world (Genesis 3:16-19). Adam and Eve fell, and when they did, they brought to themselves and to all of their descendants the suffering of death. "But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die" (Genesis 2:17). We know that Adam and Eve did not die physically on the day that they ate of the tree. Adam lived to the age of 930 (Genesis 5:5). But when Adam sinned, he was spiritually separated from God, and this is the first death.

The question of why some suffer at death and others do not could be summed up in one statement: "God is sovereign." That is not just a trite and easy statement. When Jesus healed a man born blind, the disciples questioned Him. "'Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' 'Neither this man nor his parents sinned,' said Jesus, 'but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life'" (John 9:1-3). In this passage is a principle that can be applied to our question. God allows some to suffer so that "the work of God might be displayed." In other words, God allows some to suffer to bring glory to His name and others not to suffer for the same reason. It is His sovereign will that determines each circumstance. Therefore, we can safely say that no suffering is without a purpose in the plan of God, even though we as finite humans may not see that purpose clearly.

The Apostle Paul suffered much in his life and ministry. A litany of that suffering can be found in 2 Corinthians 11:23-27. Paul was killed for his testimony and according to universal tradition was decapitated after a long imprisonment. However, during this time, he wrote this testimony to Timothy: "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:7-8). Another purpose for suffering is to be a witness to those watching that God's grace and strength is sufficient to enable a believer to stand in that suffering (2 Corinthians 12:9).

Paul also gives us an example as to how we should view suffering as a child of God. "But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong" (2 Corinthians 12:9-10). And Paul also said, "For me to live is Christ, to die is gain" (Philippians 1:21). Therefore, however a believer dies, in suffering or in relative peace, it is but a transition to "face to face" with the LORD. Once that transition has been made, all of the sorrow and pain of the suffering will end. "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away" (Revelation 21:4).

Recommended Resource: What the Bible Says about Heaven & Eternity by Ice & Demy.