cslewislover wrote: If He was without sin, then why would He need divine immunity? It makes no sense. If He is God, then why does He need "rights"? That also makes no sense. He is God and all is in Him; what does He need rights for? And why would He need you to defend them?
You said "All is in him", so would you agree now that it also includes his immunity to sin? He doesn't ever 'need' "divine immunity" because it's already a natural attribute that was there even before the world was created that effectively qualify him "sinless". Remember, all these "sinful" stuff that we know now are just a mere fabrication to him considering they didn't exist before creation. Also, who do you sin to when you're alone in existence if I may ask?
We have to stop here because there are problems with the words. First we have the words 'kato: kupsas' or "leaning over, downwards" and touching the ground (ge:n) with his finger. The Greek says 'he wrote' (egrapse) but the Greek word can also refer to making a mark, as in Homer 'the spear scratched (grapho) the shield" or in geometry "draw a line" or in painting "sketch a portrait from life". We find all these uses as well as writing words with meaning. But two words "me prospoioumenos", follow the writing verb, which we do not find in some translations. These omitted words are hard to translate, they mean something like "not intending, without specific content or meaning". In other words the "writing" was specified as a nervous scraping or a touching with the finger. If you leave out these two words, you might think, as commentators have assumed, that Jesus was writing down the charge, or the names of men. But leave them in and you have an entirely different picture as Jesus leans out of his chair and stays in that position tapping the ground nervously. A most unusual and rare drawing of Rembrandt vividly portrays this action, which we will discuss later.
One trying to imply Jesus was nervous doesn't mean He sinned. In no way was that ever written. Also you article said some translations ommited this. I have never seen any translation with this in there. If you are meaning in the origianl greek, or an earlier translation, that doesn't really mean much and I will tell you why. There were many things written about Jesus back in the day of the greeks. Not all of it was accurate and at times lies were fabricated about Him. If you meant in the 4 gosples, no where have I in my studies seen such an omission, not that Him being nervous is a problem. Note that He came here not just to lead the way and save us, but to also experience our trials and show us they could be done without sinning. He did not have some kind of immunity to sin, He resisted it on His own to show us that it could be done. He was tempted as we were, but He has overcome!
God bless!
Once I was trapped in a perpetual night, without even a star to light the sky. Now I stand in the glory of the Son, and not even a faint shadow of darkness remains.
cslewislover wrote:Again, however, I'm wondering about language issues. Are you saying Jesus sinned or not?
He didn't, but then that doesn't mean that I don't believe that he had sex outside of marriage (which you consider a sin for him and I do not), and which makes this discussion rather complicated.
Interpretation issues only I presume.
Last edited by caporegime on Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gabrielman wrote:Also you article said some translations ommited this. I have never seen any translation with this in there.
Please read them again Gabrielman. Omitted (from the known translations) were two Greek words that pertains to the nervous behavior. The author was directly translating from Greek (from which most translations were derived from) which led him to discover these omissions.
Where in the world did you get the idea that he fornicated!? No where is that mentioned. And yes it is a sin! A sin is a sin for all, no one is exempt. God never sinned and never did such a thing. Please don't tell me you are one of those Dan Brown people, the ones who believe what he writes.
Again I must say that Him being nervous isn't a problem. Actually it would not surprise me seeing as He came to experience our lives and what we felt. This does not mean He sinned or had sex. Just imagine if you are sitting there minding your own buisness and suddenly and entire crowd comes up to you and thruts some woman in your face and says "what now, what do we do?" Then one must ask why did they, who were strong in their conviction to kill such sinners, leave? If Jesus just sat there nervously drawing then why did they leave her? They were looking for a way to catch Him in fault and bring Him down. If He was nervously writting then that would have been all they needed. They would have come to the conclusion that He could do nothing about it and carry on with their execution as planned. One must also ask which manuscript was this copied from? There are hundreds of greek copies of the same texts. Some with error, others without or very little. Which greek manuscript exactally was this person using. No doubt they searched untill they found a copy that suited what they were after, an omission that isn't found elsewhere. He may be translating from some obscure copy of one of the 4 gosples and found this error, after all the greeks were only human and capable of error by amny means. Perhaps the writer made an error. Sorry but I don't open links that are just posted, I have no idea what is on the other side of that link and wish to protect my computer and my eyes.
God bless!
Once I was trapped in a perpetual night, without even a star to light the sky. Now I stand in the glory of the Son, and not even a faint shadow of darkness remains.
Gabrielman, so that begs the question: Are you pinning your hopes or believing on the right translation? So whoever decides if there's ever an error or not in a Greek source? You?
See, I didn't have to rely on some ancient Greek texts to know that he was indeed nervous. All I needed was some human, down-to-earth "experience" or intuition.
I'm going to pose to you another problem now: What if I told you that I am "He"? Are you going to accuse me of blasphemy or stone me now? How can you be sure that I really am, likewise how can you be sure that I am really not? What if you're the one who comes out blaspheming here? Hmm?
caporegime wrote:Gabrielman, so that begs the question: Are you pinning your hopes or believing on the right translation? So whoever decides if there's ever an error or not in a Greek source? You?
See, I didn't have to rely on some ancient Greek texts to know that he was indeed nervous. All I needed was some human, down-to-earth "experience" or intuition.
I'm going to pose to you another problem now: What if I told you that I am "He"? Are you going to accuse me of blasphemy or stone me now? How can you be sure that I really am, likewise how can you be sure that I am really not? What if you're the one who comes out blaspheming here? Hmm?
Cheers.
The information you provide on the Greek translation is no big deal. We're supposed to dump the whole rest of what the bible says because of some small possibility of a text implying that Jesus was nervous? I don't have time to check it out technically right now, but still, it's no big deal. It's you looking into the text to interepret it in a way that suits you, that actually goes against the rest of the bible, that's the problem.
And Jesus warned against false prophets and against believing that he came back again, when it wasn't obvious. When he comes back again, it will be very obvious. So I would have no problem whatsoever knowing you aren't Him!! Lol.
Sex outside of marriage was a sin to the Jews - it still was when the NT contents took place. Jesus would not have done this.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis
NOt to mention that for CHrist to be a perfect sacrifice for us, He had to be HUMAN, with all of the temptations and desires and yet not sin.
That is what makes His death an atonement for OUR sins. He was the second Adam, a human representative that was guiltless and yet completely human. What is sin for us would have been sin for Him but He did not sin.
THis is not complicated. You are reading into scripture needlessly. There is no need to insert sexual behavior in some attempt to make Him more like you or in some attempt to make HIm more like a human. HE IS HUMAN, HE IS GOD. Mysterious but hardly complicated. He felt all that we do but did not sin.
There are plenty of people who don't have sex outside of marriage. Celibacy is hardly abnormal. Certainly hard, but not freaky and not stupid and did not make Him any less of a man.
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"
More and More I seem to hear this and I can't help but cringe in fear for those who go to thier death stating that Jesus was a sinner.It is not only a lie from the pit of hell but if it were true christanity would have long since vanished or morphed into a nicer more enjoyable set of rituallistic practices that men of the flesh have used to control people and thier money with the false promise of absolution of guilt. Jesus never sinned He did not have the sin nature we are born with. All flesh is desended from the seed of adam except Jesus. He was basically created the same as Adam was by the Holy Spirit .{ Marys womb was basically refined clay and dust} we come from the dust and return to it.He was free of the curse of sin and death and was the only "man" who ever fufilled all ten commandments pleasing God and ultimately upon His death the dominion and power satan conned and stole from Adam became the property of Jesus Christ { thank you Jesus You are The Lord } and only He can Grant forgiveness It is a gift and He chooses who to give it to. Im just thankful he has choosen a foolish sinner like me I truly don't feel as though I deserve it. P.S why do you think the world hates on Jesus all the time? because sin hates the truth and He is The Truth and The Light
Where in the world did you get the idea that he fornicated!? No where is that mentioned. And yes it is a sin! A sin is a sin for all, no one is exempt. God never sinned and never did such a thing. Please don't tell me you are one of those Dan Brown people, the ones who believe what he writes.
