Smiting

[touchingcloth]

[ageofknowledge]

Rofl... I don't know. Good question. He's never smitten me. Discipline a couple of times. The devil has attacked like hell though I can tell you that much. But that wasn't God. God just loved me through it even though he didn't/hasn't done anything to stop it.

A better question might be why doesn't God intervene in suffering people's lives as a rule and heal them? Why does He just say His grace is sufficient and leave them to suffer.

[touchingcloth]

[zoegirl]

Everyperson is dead without Christ. We are redeemed from death, from Satan's grasp by Christ. How is that for a body count?

[zoegirl]

I must say, the tones of your comments are not, so far, the tones of someone genuinely seeking.

Are you sure you fit the guidelines here?

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =14&t=2517

[touchingcloth]

Everyperson is dead without Christ. We are redeemed from death, from Satan's grasp by Christ. How is that for a body count?

Erm, but that says nothing about the satan's biblical body count of 10, vs god's biblical body count of a couple of million.

In response to your other question, yes I am genuinely seeking. I fascinated to find out how people continually justify their faith in christianity or any religion in the face of logical fallacies and scientific facts. They're the kind of answers my parents (the christians I have most contact with) can never answer.

[zoegirl]

Everyperson is dead without Christ. We are redeemed from death, from Satan's grasp by Christ. How is that for a body count?

Erm, but that says nothing about the satan's biblical body count of 10, vs god's biblical body count of a couple of million.

In response to your other question, yes I am genuinely seeking. I fascinated to find out how people continually justify their faith in christianity or any religion in the face of logical fallacies and scientific facts. They're the kind of answers my parents (the christians I have most contact with) can never answer.

We are all dead and are under satan's dominion until Christ redeems us. That would tell you the body count for Satan...

In your response you have already stated that you are fascinated by our ability to justify our religion....as if we are some bizarre creatures, not to mention that you have your mind made up.

We can give you answers (for instance, the fact that satan certainly has more in his body count) that explains and answers your questions, but you must understand that a lot of atheist beliefs about Christianity are based on lack of knowledge on Christianity and using atheist references to try to understand Christianity is not going to provide many answers.

[ageofknowledge]

Come on Zoegirl. Just take the guy at his word.

Son, in the old testament there was smiting going on and there are people here that can explain that to you in better detail than I ever can. However, if you are in Christ then you are loved by God as a son or daughter and are spiritually safe. Do not be deceived for the devil will attack Christians and non-Christians alike and try to get them to believe God is doing it when, in fact, He certainly is not. This is a part of spiritual warfare and why we are to "Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Also there is the issue of reaping the consequences of sinful behavior (example: promiscious person blaming God for the aids they contracted).

[touchingcloth]

[zoegirl]

Honest question:

How much of he Bible have you actually read? and how many commentaries that explain it have you read?

In other words, if youhave been honestly seeking, you shouldbe going to books from Christians, not atheist websites.

Have to get off now, but will respond more later.

[touchingcloth]

[topic]

touchingcloth you said "I thought he's supposed to be all loving and that?" and "in the face of logical fallacies and scientific facts."You also said "and History".
If you care will you ellaborate -
1. what in your view are the "and that" regarding God?,
2. what are the "logical fallacies and scientific facts"?, the ones that are meaningful to you, and
3. what history are you refering too?, again those that have swayed your view point.

Not being smart here or trying to catch you out in any way. Just want to be clear in knowing where your basis (foundation) lays with your view of all the "Smitting".Please don't say it is in the bible, because i can show you where God "loves" in the bible and that is not what i am asking. If you do wish to reply, you can do it in "Point form' so it does not get over powering to explain, but obviously the choice is yours in how you reply.
Clearly your question is based on your views of "and that", " logical fallacies and scientific facts" and "history", just wish to know what they are.

(do not want to go into the aetheistic views yet)

Cheers

[touchingcloth]

[topic]

Regarding the history comment. It is your previous posting before i posted. You said " Eventually I started to read historical, scientific, atheistic documents as well as texts from other religions.

1. To say God is love is true but then we have to clarify what love we are talking about. Is it love from a human perspective or from the Godly perspective.What i mean by this is who sets the peramiter(s). From the instant man is created, God sets boundaries.This is a caring God. He gives man free will,but with such freedom comes responsabilities.Boundries need to be set. Anthropologically speaking this is an inherent characterists of hominids, so there is no contradiction to this with God.
God encompases love, but to deny his other attributes (which we need to be mindfull of; as this limits God which should not be done as God has no limits)
So what are "some" of the attributes of God - eternal, all knowing,all seeing, righteous,love,truth, jealous,creator, wise (all this just from Genesis).Love is only a part of God.So why is it some only focus on just one aspect of his character? This would be no differant if science looked at evolution from a biological perspective and did not include cosmology,anthropology,paleontology, geology etc. Why is it permitted for one discourse yet that discourse limits everyone else from using the same values (emperical knowledge)?
2.Genesis 1&2.
First we have to know how the bible was written. To many who read the bible they believe that what they are reading is how it was written in ancient times.In Hebrew writting, the written character is specific. First they don't use vowels so God in Hebrew (if they wrote Lord in english ) would be LRD or L-RD. Secondly they use Parallel poetry, which is a specific type of writting.Not to go in great detail ( just google it - you should find something on it) is where a 1st sentance is repeated in the second sentance with the same meaning. It can also be where a first sentance is supported by a second sentance by using differant words. You also have a passage where there is a sentance that is accumalative ( climactic) to the discourse of the piece being read. There are other methods to Parallel poetry but the above 3 will suffice at this point.
To use an analogy, these are like maps to find your way to the meaning, without it you are lost in translation.
So the meaning of Genisis 1 brings Genesis 2 which in form is "climactic" in composition. Genesis 1 is the "cause", Genesis 2 is the "reasoning".Genesis 1 is showing you "how" creation was done, Genesis 2 is showing you "why" creation was done. Genesis 1 is macro, Genesis 2 is micro.
In simple terms, Genesis 1 is a glass(or any container - pick one) and how it is created. Once the specifics of the outer boundaries have been revealed, Genesis 2 now focuses of what you put in it. It is all relative in terms of specifics, it brings a focused clarity.
Not to pre-suppose , but in what reflection are you saying there is a contradiction?
The age of the Universe -- well i am not a "young earth creationists" so for me this point is mute.(and this would be another totally diverse conversation)
3. "the flood, the killing of the Midianites & the plagues on Egypt"
I'll look at the Egyption story since you have brought this up a couple of times, and specifically where you say "According to the bible he also hardens the Pharaoh's heart against releasing the Hebrews to Moses."
I will focus on the "hardens the pharaoh's heart" and develop some of the full story, to try and minimise the writting.
You have to realise that on 9 occasions the Pharaoh rejects Moses request or demands - depending on your P.O.V. (semantics really).
The story shows us that the Pharaoh has hardened his heart already and is unmovable and if anything, vindictive towards the requests. He also shows his arrogance, which can be logically accepted since his faith is differant to Moses, however Moses has already shown the power of God to him,and this shows him that Moses God is neither imaginary,and is personal, for this the Pharaoh becomes more obstinate.
Where it says God "hardens" his heart. What is being said here is that God has given the Pharaoh over to his own desire.If Pharaoh doesn't want to listen and has already hardened his own heart, then so biet on his own head.
This is free will. How far should God go to bring his people to him. Some would argue that if God forced Pharaoh to let the Israelites go,by spiritually changind his heart, it would have not be free will. The Pharaoh had more than one occasion to do as asked but he chose not too, and God was not going to intercede by making Pharaoh change his mind by making him change his mind by altering his "heart" - this would have made the Pharaoh - robotic and not free thinking. Like i said before - with free thinking comes responsabilities, you are not forced (in other words, God creates change in you without permission) you have the right too decide.
In Romans1:24,it gives you an idea on what this means by "hardening" the heart. In this piece God is giving their heart over to their desire.Again free will.

You also brought up a Tally for God vs Satan. The issue here is; the bible is about God, not about satan. He is only mentioned briefly throughout the bible because he is not the main focus of the bible.God is and we are, because of the relationship he wants with us. So logic would dictate why would you bringing someone else into the focus,especially the "lord of flies".
When you speak about God , you are actually Glorifying him, if you speak about satan you are then glorifying him, so why would anyone want to talk about someone so decisive and repulsive?
If you want to see in detail how satan works read Job. So you don't get too lost, i will explain some. God lets or gives permission for things to happen to Job. Will you do what God lets you do or will you repulse/reject that which is offensive to God. What you will notice in Job is that satan without any concern whatsoever, immediatly goes to those he knows are weak in faith and gets them to do evil on Job. Those satan went to could have easily refused the temptation(s) but they chose not to and inflicted pain and suffering on Job.So from the evil intent, it shows that satan has no concern over human kind, for he shows no thought in should he or shouldn't he, he just wants to do it and it shows how man with "free will" can decide if they should or should not do evil. There is more to the story, however since you are looking at "tallies", this focus should suffice to at least give you an introduction on how satan works.

[touchingcloth]