How do you explain infant death?
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Poetic_Soul
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How do you explain infant death?
My nephew and his wife were expecting a baby girl. The day that she was born was the day that she died. Can anyone give me some consoling scriptures that I may council them?
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Felgar
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Well, Samuel 12:20-23 explains how David states that he will go to his dead child, though the child will not come back to him. Clearly David's days-old child went to the Lord.
An excerpt from this site: http://www.myfortress.org/ChildrenGoToHeaven.html
An excerpt from this site: http://www.myfortress.org/ChildrenGoToHeaven.html
Losing a child like that would be devestating. All that we can offer is hope - and hope that is manifest in the one true Lord. At least it's more than most people have.First, Isaiah 7:16 speaks of an age before a child is morally accountable, namely, “before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good.” Second, David believed in life after death and the resurrection (Ps. 16:10—11), so when he spoke of going to be with his son who died after birth (2 Sam. 12:23), he implied that those who die in infancy go to heaven. Third, Psalm 139 speaks of an unborn baby as a creation of God whose name is written down in God's “book” in heaven (vv. 14—16). Fourth, Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God” (Mark 10:14), thus indicating that even little children will be in heaven. Fifth, some see support in Jesus' affirmation that even “little ones” (i.e., children) have a guardian angel “in heaven” who watches over them (Matt. 18:10). Sixth, the fact that Christ's death for all made little children savable, even before they believed (Rom. 5:18—19). Finally, Jesus' indication that those who did not know were not morally responsible (John 9:41) is used to support the belief that there is heaven for those who cannot yet believe, even though there is no heaven for those who are old enough and refuse to believe (John 3:36).
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Poetic_Soul
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If my understanding is correct babies and young children are accepted into heaven or our understanding of heaven without judgement right?
because they are as we are asked to be, innocent and righteous?
because they are as we are asked to be, innocent and righteous?
Church tradition tells us that when John, son of Zebadee and brother of James was an old man, his disciples would carry him to church in their arms.
He would simply say, “Little children, love one another”
After a time his disciples wearied at always hearing these same words and asked “Master why do you always say this?
He replied, “it is the Lords command, and if done, it is enough”
He would simply say, “Little children, love one another”
After a time his disciples wearied at always hearing these same words and asked “Master why do you always say this?
He replied, “it is the Lords command, and if done, it is enough”
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Dan
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A child is ignorant of evil until they come of age. When we reach a certain level of maturity we become aware of morality and the Word of God. Since children do not reach this age, they are unaccountable because they do not understand sin or what they are doing when they commit it.Deborah wrote:If my understanding is correct babies and young children are accepted into heaven or our understanding of heaven without judgement right?
because they are as we are asked to be, innocent and righteous?
Ignorance is bliss eh?
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kateliz
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Sinful at Birth
However, even though children and infants are all in God's Hands because of their inability to decide for themselves, they aren't innocent and righteous. I can't find it right now, but there's at least one verse that clearly states that from the womb we are sinful. Each baby is born with sin on it's head. This is because of Original Sin. Sin entered mankind through Adam, and all who are descendents of Adam have a sinful nature even from the womb that makes them defiled with sin before birth. Again, I'm having a hard time finding the verses that support all this, I'm increasingly becoming unfamiliar with where things are though God's burned the meaning of the words in my heart. Please help me out here, and my eyes are starting to cross!
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Poetic_Soul
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kateliz
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I believe he spoke for everyone on this and used himself as an example. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me. (Psalm 51:5) If this is not about David being born with a sinful nature, and the Bible fully supports a sinful nature, then do you believe it's about his mother sinning when he was conceived? Is there other evidence of this sin that was deemed worthy to be mentioned? There's plenty on the truth of a sinful nature having begun with Adam, but not on this one sin. Which is therfore more probable, or biblical? And if you believe in a sinful nature, and you don't believe it comes at conception, then when does it come? At the first sin, when the infant rebels against his parents when they're changing his diaper? Sin in ignorance is still sin. That's why Jesus told us not to worry about children going to hell, because we all know they sin.
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Poetic_Soul
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The bible clearly says that through the seed of a man (Adam) we are sinful. I believe that it's the moment of conception that we put on the sinful nature. Yet Jesus' birth was through the seed of a woman (GEN 3:15) thus having the Imaculate Conception. One of a sinless nature. I started this thread due to my nieces baby dying 8 hours after birth. We are judged not by our sinful nature but by the actions that we take upon our sinful nature. An infant has no knowledge of good and evil but of hunger and in need. I can't see an infant going to hell due to it's sinful nature.
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kateliz
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Sinful Nature/Divine Nature
Whew, glad to hear we agree on that one! So the question becomes, then, does possessing a sinful nature automatically make one sinful? I'd say so because simply having it is agaisnt God. How can God be pleased with that? Here's the real proof of it though: faith in Christ gives us, (positionally, not automatically experientially,) a divine nature. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. That's 2 Peter 1:4. It is through faith in our Savior that we are positionally changed from having a sinful nature to having a divine nature. That is part of our becoming new creations. It's part of the package deal that comes with the Cross.
Now, don't start thinking that even though I believe this fully to be true I've come to experience it for myself! That God promised I'd have while I'm yet alive in this corruptible body, (Hallelujah!!! And I never use that word!) but He has much more work to do in me before the day I am capable of such faith.
So here's the thing, if our sinful natures belong to what was condemned on the Cross, and by faith we may grasp hold of Christ's own divine nature for our use, then lacking the faith to do so is a sin, and so possessing it is a sin.
I hold to that while we yet walk in our sinful natures, (the flesh,) we are constantly sinning. Unbelief is a sin, and which one of us would say we have full faith in God? And don't think I believe that once you start walking in the Spirit through this divine nature you never sin again. Slip ups are part of learning that the new righteousness we see in ourselves belongs soley to Christ. We ourselves are still as sinful as ever. Those slip ups happen when we get proud of Christ's divine nature in us and credit it to ourselves. We temporarily give up our former position in the Spirit so we may walk in our own flesh, which we deem in those weak moments as improved, which can never happen.
As Christians, God expects us to take up the position He gave us in Christ by our faith. To not do so is sin. He took our sinful natures and crucified them, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. (Romans 6:6,7) and gave us Christ's divine nature to put on instead by faith.
Living in our positionally crucified sinful natures is therefore a sin in and of itself.
Infants and children do not go to hell because even though they have sinful natures and also sin with them, God has declared that they are His, and because of their under-development minds and hearts they will not go to hell. And of course, ages varying individually of when this ends and responsibility begins.
Now, don't start thinking that even though I believe this fully to be true I've come to experience it for myself! That God promised I'd have while I'm yet alive in this corruptible body, (Hallelujah!!! And I never use that word!) but He has much more work to do in me before the day I am capable of such faith.
So here's the thing, if our sinful natures belong to what was condemned on the Cross, and by faith we may grasp hold of Christ's own divine nature for our use, then lacking the faith to do so is a sin, and so possessing it is a sin.
I hold to that while we yet walk in our sinful natures, (the flesh,) we are constantly sinning. Unbelief is a sin, and which one of us would say we have full faith in God? And don't think I believe that once you start walking in the Spirit through this divine nature you never sin again. Slip ups are part of learning that the new righteousness we see in ourselves belongs soley to Christ. We ourselves are still as sinful as ever. Those slip ups happen when we get proud of Christ's divine nature in us and credit it to ourselves. We temporarily give up our former position in the Spirit so we may walk in our own flesh, which we deem in those weak moments as improved, which can never happen.
As Christians, God expects us to take up the position He gave us in Christ by our faith. To not do so is sin. He took our sinful natures and crucified them, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. (Romans 6:6,7) and gave us Christ's divine nature to put on instead by faith.
Living in our positionally crucified sinful natures is therefore a sin in and of itself.
Infants and children do not go to hell because even though they have sinful natures and also sin with them, God has declared that they are His, and because of their under-development minds and hearts they will not go to hell. And of course, ages varying individually of when this ends and responsibility begins.
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Anonymous
Re: How do you explain infant death?
Poetic_Soul wrote:My nephew and his wife were expecting a baby girl. The day that she was born was the day that she died. Can anyone give me some consoling scriptures that I may council them?
In my opinion you should try to just be there for her and nothing else at the moment. She is in raw pain and can not take any confort from anyone. But your love and presence will surely help. Your prayers will help.
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Dan
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Children are sinners, but they are not AWARE that they are sinning. Does a child know what is right and what is wrong? Young children do not understand their actions until they mature enough to understand what Good and Evil are. They are innocent because it's beyond their capacity to know they are sinning at that age.
Sure their conscience is there to tell them it's wrong, but are they consciously away of good and evil? At an early age, no. Ever meet a religious child under 10? They are very rare because most children can't understand sin yet.
Sure their conscience is there to tell them it's wrong, but are they consciously away of good and evil? At an early age, no. Ever meet a religious child under 10? They are very rare because most children can't understand sin yet.
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bizzt
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Re: How do you explain infant death?
I too have gone through the same ordeal. My Niece (Brother's Daughter) died in June 2004. She was so precious but my Brother and his wife have pulled away from Family because the Pain has been too much for them. On top of that my Wife is expecting in May and that adds a whole other dimension to the issue. My Brother lost his baby girl at 5 mos. As above the scriptures of David were given to my Brother among others. Consoling may be done by just being there to talk to.Poetic_Soul wrote:My nephew and his wife were expecting a baby girl. The day that she was born was the day that she died. Can anyone give me some consoling scriptures that I may council them?
Thanks
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JBirdAngel
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i dont truely believe there is a way to console someone from this... you can be there for them and try to show your love, but it is such a painful thing, nothing can help but faith in God really... and often times when such things happen that is the first thing to go, or it is severely attacked....
i havnt read all teh scripture on it but someone said that children are innocent because they dont know, i dont agree with that, sinning is sinning, it doesnt matter if you know or not, if you kill someone you are not innocent just because you didnt know it would happen, if you didnt know the gun was loaded, you still have sinned, you may not have meant to, but a sin has occurred, Jesus died for all of our sins... we cannot say who goes to Heaven or who goes to hell, thats if anyone even does go to hell, none of us can say someone goes to hell, and there seem to be many people who bleieve that no one goes to hell, i beleive it is very possible for no one to go to hell, as Jesus did die for all our sins, but i do not know how Jesus works in all of us, and i am not particularly familiar with all the verses on hell, but just because there is an eternal fire where sin and such are burned forever, doesnt neccesarily mean that people go there, or deosnt neccesarily mean those people go there forever... it may very well be that people go to hell, but it also may not be, as Jesus did die for all sins...
with this i try to understand how can God let this world still go on... there is rape, there is death, i am so appauled by it, if i could i would do anything to stop it, i have to calm myself down when i think about such things because all i want to do is get violent, and im not a violent person, but when i think of someoen hurting someone i love in such a horrible way, i just dont know what to do, i just try to calm down and realize that its not my place to judge and to leave it up to God... but i wondered how could God, who cannot stand sin, certinaly even less than i can... how could he allow this world to go on.... i guess i figure it must be because he is so much more forgiving than i am... i try to forigve rapists, and i hope htat i do, but i still get angry and would want to get violent, i definatly dont want to be around such people... and i certainly wouldnt allow such a thing if i could help it... or i would try not to allow it... i didnt know it would happen, even though i said id be there... i should have been and i should have stopped it.... how could God allow such thigns to happen to those he loves, when i could not allow it myself... it must pain him worse than it does me, but he must be more forgiving to still allow such a person time to come to him and to repent... even tho such people say they are christians... i cant understand it, i have been horrible as well... so i try to be understanding, but i could not say i love someone and then hurt them and do soemthing they dont want and still get pleasure from it.... i cannto say i want such a person to go to Heaven, but i cant say i want such a person to go to hell, i do not want anyone to suffer, i just trust that God will help me to have a better understanding atleast in the next life, that i too will be overjoyed that i myself and others are finally free of sin and hate the sins we have done.... i guess he is waiting to forgive them... i do not know... i do not like this place at all... luckily this is not how it will be forever..
sorry im going astray... you can certainly help assure them that their daughter is in Heaven, and that they will be with her forever... but nothing can ease the pain, nothing will stop them from being sad... only faith can help them go on, and in such times faith can be the hardest thing to have...
my fiance recently passed away... so i too am dealing with such things... nothing anyone says can help, only talking to her would help or to God, i talk to them all day long, but of course they dont truely reply... people seem to try to say they understand, no one can understand, each persons life is different, we cannot understand the pain of another... especially if the event hasnt happened... and i do not like that some people seem to expect me to just be happy or to get over it, that is foolish, i will be sad for teh rest of my days here, always trying to have faith, hoping to serve God and honor my love, always apologizing for how i treated her, for teh fact that she is gone, for all the thigns we cannot have...
one thing that is oddly good about the Bible, is its constant reminder that we will suffer, we are told plainly that in the end days people will long for death but not find it, and so on. i have no idea when the earth will end or when Christ will return, but i do so much long for death, tho it is not death i long for , but truely life, for i will only truely be alive once i am reunited with my love, adn with God and Jesus there making everything okay... i wish so much to die, and i hope to soon, but i also want so much to be able to serve God and do his will whatever it may be, im not sure how to find what he wants me to do, i do not care how long i must live as longa s i am reunited with her, and am allowed to be with her and God and Jesus forever...
reality is the worst thing possible, there is no worse hell... but Reality is teh greatest thing possible, this world, this reality, its not the Truth, its not Reality, it is just the mess that is before our eyes, God is the Truth, and Heaven is Reality...
i certainly hope that this horrible person that i am is not the real me... i am so afraid my love cannot be in love with me... there is no consoling... no one can comfort someone who expereicnes such a loss as i would imagine those of you who have lost someone close already know...
ive never been very close to my family, this was the first death of someone close, and i dont feel its good to say, but the entirty of my family besides my love could have died, and it would not have been as bad as this...
God creatd man and woman to be one flesh, to be in love, as Adam said, Eve is flesh of is flesh and bone of his bone, they are one, to be seperated from teh one God creatd you to be one with is to not be whole... and it is not how God desires us to be... unfortunatly in this life i will never know what it is like to have a child, but certainly that is part of you as well...
I believe that everything in Heaven is a part of what makes us whole and happy, God of course being the head of this, teh framework, the architect, the most neccesary aspect, then, as shown through Genesis, comes our complement, our soulmate, the one person God creates for us to be one with, then our family and friends... each person in Heaven will be a part of our happiness, and we will love everyone and everything, differently to be sure, as we will only love God as God, our complement as our lovers, our parents as our paretns, and our friends as our friends, but we will love them all, to truely love is to love equally, to truely love is to love with all that you are, and you cannot truely love to things without loving them the same, and all things in Heaven will be a part of love and happiness and wholeness, and eternity will be able to be spend worsihping God, i cannot wait...
in Heaven we will be free from sin and free from law, there will only be God's will, as God's will truely is our own, and everything will be great, we will be able to spend eternity as God intended us to spend it, with God, with our lover, with our family, with our friends, worshiping God forever, worshiping not only through praise, but just as Adam worshped God by doing his will in tending the Garden adn by being with Eve, we too will worship God in everything we do, with no sin to get in the way...
yes we can learn of God and start a relationshp with him here... but it doesnt even touch the depths of what im sure we all hope there to be in our relationship with God there, to actually be able to be with him, to talk to him, that will be so wonderful, and our relationship will be given a dimension that we cant even understand right now, and im sure with that nothing but the utmost joy will fill us and our lives...
a translation of the new testament my mother had is called Phillips i believe, and i like it alot, so im not sure the wording in it is the same of course as the other Bibles, as clearly it isnt, but the Bible is wonderful, because it so perfectly describes the truth, that we must truely endure this life, that it truely is a struggle, nothing is harder then to live this life... i
God is love and God is life, death is not desired by God as it is the works of sin, the loss of their daughter, the loss of my love, the loss of all people is never a good thing, but we can be glad that they are now with God, adn that truely is a wonderful thing... it is hard for me to understand, i get upset at myself sometimes because i know her death isnt a good thing, and i worry because i dont want them to think that i think it is a good thing, i just know that to be with God is so much better than to be here without him...
one thing that i think helps me is to realize that this world, this earth, this reality, is not at all waht God intended, it is okay for us to hate this place, we are not supposed to love it, this is not good and not what God intended, not what God created, not what God desires...
knowing this we can all trust that although it hurts so much now, we truely are not missing anything in this life... of course it definatly feels like they are missing out on being with there daughter and me with my love... and in ways we are.. but not truely, our relationships and lives here, even at there most wonderful, cannot compare to how they will be in Heaven.... there daughter is not here, but she is not gone, she is home, and who better to trust the care of our loved ones to then God and Jesus themselves... yes it is so hard, not just for us, for Jesus also wept at death... but our loved ones are safe, they are at home, i may have to live a million more years, but it is but one night in a bad hotel, and in the morning i will go home to God, and to my love. (i heard the one night in a hotel in a book or somewhere)... we cannot miss out on things in this world, because this world is not how things are meant to be...
someone mentioned flesh being evil, but no flesh is not evil, God created flesh before sin, in the Garden, it is not evil, Jesus is flesh now that he is risin, and he is not evil, his body is different, wonderfully different, but still he has flesh none the less as we know from his being able to be touched, to eat, to drink....
death is a hard thing, it is a mystery, and because of death being waht it is, i dont think most of us try to face its reality until we are forced to... we leave it alone, not truely wanting to think about it, because we dont truely know what it brings and what it will be like....
the best way to look at Heaven is to read teh description of the city in Revelations, and the Jesus after he is risn, and to look back to the perfect Earth God created in Genesis, the Garden of Eden, the New Jerusalem, and Jesus after he is risin, these are how our life will be, truely in paradise. in a true and real place, physical, with streets, with trees, with people, with Jesus, with God.
We cannot know Heaven, it is far beyond our greatest hopes and dreams... but we can know that it is such a wonderful place, and that it is jsut as real as this world we are in now, even realer i am sure, as wonderful as a hug can be here, i am sure a hug in Heaven will be so much better, with no sin to get in the way... we are human beings, body and soul, and we always will be, luckily not in this corrupted body that we now have, but we will have, i think it refers to them as spirit bodies? i may not be correct, we will nto be formless beings to drift in the clouds bored forever, we will be ourselves, we will have our bodies, our intended bodies, much better bodies, we will be with all our loved ones, there will be no more sin, adn no more death...
i am sure they will always feel that they are loosing out on being with there daughter... her first words... her first step...
i am missing out on being with my love, our wedding, our lives, our children... but we must focus on the truth, and not let our depression get the best of us... tehy are not dead, but are probably more alive then we are, basking in the glory of God and the joy of Jesus
there is nothign to miss out on here, they will have eternity with there daughter, and with ech other, and me with my love...
sin is what is wrong with this world, sin is what messed it up, and sin is what will be removed...
The Garden of Eden is how God intended things to be clearly, and was wihtout sin, until the eating of the forbidden fruit... God created in love/one flesh, he created the process of having chidlren, he created children, and as we can plainly see in Genesis he fully opened up paradise and eternity for these thigns to take place if we just chose to have it... unfortunatly we chose otherwise... bug God in his greatness didnt say oh well and give up, he took all of our mistakes onto himself and died for us, he died... death is the opposite of God, God is love and life and goodness, no sin, death is the completion of sin... God was willing to go through the worst thing, the thing completley opposit to himself in order to save us all... it may be hard to see when we are clouded with what seems to be real in this world, perhaps that is satans doing, i do not know, but God clearly loves us all so much... what was the last thing God did before Adam and Eve left the Garden? God didnt just kick them out, not at all, God created them clothes, wihch clearly they didnt need... if they needed clothes, God would have created them with it from the beginning, they did not need clothes, but they did desire clothes... and God loved them enough to provide them with clothes.....
God didnt just destroy Egypt with the plagues... he showed his love there too, he simply asked for his people to be set free, he tried time and time again to get his people free without expressly killing and so on...
God loves us, and while we may be apart from our loved ones now, and it may seem like an eternity in hell, which i know id gladly do for my love to have one moment of happiness, it truely is but a moment... we will be with them... there daughter will always be there daughter... my love will always be my love, and just as Adam and Eve would have had their children in the Garden, i hope that she and i will be allowed to have our children in Heaven... God clearly loves children... and i cannot believe that God would allow sin and death to deprive one of his children that he loves so much to miss out on the joys of his gifts, our true love is a great gift from God, and so his partaking in creation with him and having children... i cannot believe that just because of death that he would deny his children these gifts... these things would have taken palce in Eden and they will take place in Heaven, and it will clearly be so much better there, just as Adam and Eve were one and had no need of marrying or being given in marriage, the same will be true for all of us in Heaven, our love is far stronger than a ceremony and a law, such things would be pointless and silly, just as we will not go to church in Heaven... for we will be with our lover, our family, our children, and we will be with God, and able to do things correctly, without the need of laws to guide us, for God's and our will will guide us, for they are one in the same.... this world is hard, but we must endure..
it gets frustrating, the world is going to end in suffering anyways, we know this to be true... truely what can we do? nothing we do will stop the suffering... but we must not loose hope, or faith
"...but those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint." - Isaiah 40:31
God is our hope, our heavenly father, our creator, our savior... it is such a struggle to make it through this life... and sinning and evil thoughts make it so much worse... all we can do i guess is to keep on trying, keep hoping in God, adn to know that He is in control, and that our loved ones are safe with him, adn that justice will be had, and we will be returned to them, exactly as we should be, as parent and child, as lovers, as friends, as brothers and sisters in Christ... as human beings, as the loved children of God...
sorry for the long post... hope it atleast perhaps made someone feel a little better or i dunno... hopefully something good..
i havnt read all teh scripture on it but someone said that children are innocent because they dont know, i dont agree with that, sinning is sinning, it doesnt matter if you know or not, if you kill someone you are not innocent just because you didnt know it would happen, if you didnt know the gun was loaded, you still have sinned, you may not have meant to, but a sin has occurred, Jesus died for all of our sins... we cannot say who goes to Heaven or who goes to hell, thats if anyone even does go to hell, none of us can say someone goes to hell, and there seem to be many people who bleieve that no one goes to hell, i beleive it is very possible for no one to go to hell, as Jesus did die for all our sins, but i do not know how Jesus works in all of us, and i am not particularly familiar with all the verses on hell, but just because there is an eternal fire where sin and such are burned forever, doesnt neccesarily mean that people go there, or deosnt neccesarily mean those people go there forever... it may very well be that people go to hell, but it also may not be, as Jesus did die for all sins...
with this i try to understand how can God let this world still go on... there is rape, there is death, i am so appauled by it, if i could i would do anything to stop it, i have to calm myself down when i think about such things because all i want to do is get violent, and im not a violent person, but when i think of someoen hurting someone i love in such a horrible way, i just dont know what to do, i just try to calm down and realize that its not my place to judge and to leave it up to God... but i wondered how could God, who cannot stand sin, certinaly even less than i can... how could he allow this world to go on.... i guess i figure it must be because he is so much more forgiving than i am... i try to forigve rapists, and i hope htat i do, but i still get angry and would want to get violent, i definatly dont want to be around such people... and i certainly wouldnt allow such a thing if i could help it... or i would try not to allow it... i didnt know it would happen, even though i said id be there... i should have been and i should have stopped it.... how could God allow such thigns to happen to those he loves, when i could not allow it myself... it must pain him worse than it does me, but he must be more forgiving to still allow such a person time to come to him and to repent... even tho such people say they are christians... i cant understand it, i have been horrible as well... so i try to be understanding, but i could not say i love someone and then hurt them and do soemthing they dont want and still get pleasure from it.... i cannto say i want such a person to go to Heaven, but i cant say i want such a person to go to hell, i do not want anyone to suffer, i just trust that God will help me to have a better understanding atleast in the next life, that i too will be overjoyed that i myself and others are finally free of sin and hate the sins we have done.... i guess he is waiting to forgive them... i do not know... i do not like this place at all... luckily this is not how it will be forever..
sorry im going astray... you can certainly help assure them that their daughter is in Heaven, and that they will be with her forever... but nothing can ease the pain, nothing will stop them from being sad... only faith can help them go on, and in such times faith can be the hardest thing to have...
my fiance recently passed away... so i too am dealing with such things... nothing anyone says can help, only talking to her would help or to God, i talk to them all day long, but of course they dont truely reply... people seem to try to say they understand, no one can understand, each persons life is different, we cannot understand the pain of another... especially if the event hasnt happened... and i do not like that some people seem to expect me to just be happy or to get over it, that is foolish, i will be sad for teh rest of my days here, always trying to have faith, hoping to serve God and honor my love, always apologizing for how i treated her, for teh fact that she is gone, for all the thigns we cannot have...
one thing that is oddly good about the Bible, is its constant reminder that we will suffer, we are told plainly that in the end days people will long for death but not find it, and so on. i have no idea when the earth will end or when Christ will return, but i do so much long for death, tho it is not death i long for , but truely life, for i will only truely be alive once i am reunited with my love, adn with God and Jesus there making everything okay... i wish so much to die, and i hope to soon, but i also want so much to be able to serve God and do his will whatever it may be, im not sure how to find what he wants me to do, i do not care how long i must live as longa s i am reunited with her, and am allowed to be with her and God and Jesus forever...
reality is the worst thing possible, there is no worse hell... but Reality is teh greatest thing possible, this world, this reality, its not the Truth, its not Reality, it is just the mess that is before our eyes, God is the Truth, and Heaven is Reality...
i certainly hope that this horrible person that i am is not the real me... i am so afraid my love cannot be in love with me... there is no consoling... no one can comfort someone who expereicnes such a loss as i would imagine those of you who have lost someone close already know...
ive never been very close to my family, this was the first death of someone close, and i dont feel its good to say, but the entirty of my family besides my love could have died, and it would not have been as bad as this...
God creatd man and woman to be one flesh, to be in love, as Adam said, Eve is flesh of is flesh and bone of his bone, they are one, to be seperated from teh one God creatd you to be one with is to not be whole... and it is not how God desires us to be... unfortunatly in this life i will never know what it is like to have a child, but certainly that is part of you as well...
I believe that everything in Heaven is a part of what makes us whole and happy, God of course being the head of this, teh framework, the architect, the most neccesary aspect, then, as shown through Genesis, comes our complement, our soulmate, the one person God creates for us to be one with, then our family and friends... each person in Heaven will be a part of our happiness, and we will love everyone and everything, differently to be sure, as we will only love God as God, our complement as our lovers, our parents as our paretns, and our friends as our friends, but we will love them all, to truely love is to love equally, to truely love is to love with all that you are, and you cannot truely love to things without loving them the same, and all things in Heaven will be a part of love and happiness and wholeness, and eternity will be able to be spend worsihping God, i cannot wait...
in Heaven we will be free from sin and free from law, there will only be God's will, as God's will truely is our own, and everything will be great, we will be able to spend eternity as God intended us to spend it, with God, with our lover, with our family, with our friends, worshiping God forever, worshiping not only through praise, but just as Adam worshped God by doing his will in tending the Garden adn by being with Eve, we too will worship God in everything we do, with no sin to get in the way...
yes we can learn of God and start a relationshp with him here... but it doesnt even touch the depths of what im sure we all hope there to be in our relationship with God there, to actually be able to be with him, to talk to him, that will be so wonderful, and our relationship will be given a dimension that we cant even understand right now, and im sure with that nothing but the utmost joy will fill us and our lives...
a translation of the new testament my mother had is called Phillips i believe, and i like it alot, so im not sure the wording in it is the same of course as the other Bibles, as clearly it isnt, but the Bible is wonderful, because it so perfectly describes the truth, that we must truely endure this life, that it truely is a struggle, nothing is harder then to live this life... i
God is love and God is life, death is not desired by God as it is the works of sin, the loss of their daughter, the loss of my love, the loss of all people is never a good thing, but we can be glad that they are now with God, adn that truely is a wonderful thing... it is hard for me to understand, i get upset at myself sometimes because i know her death isnt a good thing, and i worry because i dont want them to think that i think it is a good thing, i just know that to be with God is so much better than to be here without him...
one thing that i think helps me is to realize that this world, this earth, this reality, is not at all waht God intended, it is okay for us to hate this place, we are not supposed to love it, this is not good and not what God intended, not what God created, not what God desires...
knowing this we can all trust that although it hurts so much now, we truely are not missing anything in this life... of course it definatly feels like they are missing out on being with there daughter and me with my love... and in ways we are.. but not truely, our relationships and lives here, even at there most wonderful, cannot compare to how they will be in Heaven.... there daughter is not here, but she is not gone, she is home, and who better to trust the care of our loved ones to then God and Jesus themselves... yes it is so hard, not just for us, for Jesus also wept at death... but our loved ones are safe, they are at home, i may have to live a million more years, but it is but one night in a bad hotel, and in the morning i will go home to God, and to my love. (i heard the one night in a hotel in a book or somewhere)... we cannot miss out on things in this world, because this world is not how things are meant to be...
someone mentioned flesh being evil, but no flesh is not evil, God created flesh before sin, in the Garden, it is not evil, Jesus is flesh now that he is risin, and he is not evil, his body is different, wonderfully different, but still he has flesh none the less as we know from his being able to be touched, to eat, to drink....
death is a hard thing, it is a mystery, and because of death being waht it is, i dont think most of us try to face its reality until we are forced to... we leave it alone, not truely wanting to think about it, because we dont truely know what it brings and what it will be like....
the best way to look at Heaven is to read teh description of the city in Revelations, and the Jesus after he is risn, and to look back to the perfect Earth God created in Genesis, the Garden of Eden, the New Jerusalem, and Jesus after he is risin, these are how our life will be, truely in paradise. in a true and real place, physical, with streets, with trees, with people, with Jesus, with God.
We cannot know Heaven, it is far beyond our greatest hopes and dreams... but we can know that it is such a wonderful place, and that it is jsut as real as this world we are in now, even realer i am sure, as wonderful as a hug can be here, i am sure a hug in Heaven will be so much better, with no sin to get in the way... we are human beings, body and soul, and we always will be, luckily not in this corrupted body that we now have, but we will have, i think it refers to them as spirit bodies? i may not be correct, we will nto be formless beings to drift in the clouds bored forever, we will be ourselves, we will have our bodies, our intended bodies, much better bodies, we will be with all our loved ones, there will be no more sin, adn no more death...
i am sure they will always feel that they are loosing out on being with there daughter... her first words... her first step...
i am missing out on being with my love, our wedding, our lives, our children... but we must focus on the truth, and not let our depression get the best of us... tehy are not dead, but are probably more alive then we are, basking in the glory of God and the joy of Jesus
there is nothign to miss out on here, they will have eternity with there daughter, and with ech other, and me with my love...
sin is what is wrong with this world, sin is what messed it up, and sin is what will be removed...
The Garden of Eden is how God intended things to be clearly, and was wihtout sin, until the eating of the forbidden fruit... God created in love/one flesh, he created the process of having chidlren, he created children, and as we can plainly see in Genesis he fully opened up paradise and eternity for these thigns to take place if we just chose to have it... unfortunatly we chose otherwise... bug God in his greatness didnt say oh well and give up, he took all of our mistakes onto himself and died for us, he died... death is the opposite of God, God is love and life and goodness, no sin, death is the completion of sin... God was willing to go through the worst thing, the thing completley opposit to himself in order to save us all... it may be hard to see when we are clouded with what seems to be real in this world, perhaps that is satans doing, i do not know, but God clearly loves us all so much... what was the last thing God did before Adam and Eve left the Garden? God didnt just kick them out, not at all, God created them clothes, wihch clearly they didnt need... if they needed clothes, God would have created them with it from the beginning, they did not need clothes, but they did desire clothes... and God loved them enough to provide them with clothes.....
God didnt just destroy Egypt with the plagues... he showed his love there too, he simply asked for his people to be set free, he tried time and time again to get his people free without expressly killing and so on...
God loves us, and while we may be apart from our loved ones now, and it may seem like an eternity in hell, which i know id gladly do for my love to have one moment of happiness, it truely is but a moment... we will be with them... there daughter will always be there daughter... my love will always be my love, and just as Adam and Eve would have had their children in the Garden, i hope that she and i will be allowed to have our children in Heaven... God clearly loves children... and i cannot believe that God would allow sin and death to deprive one of his children that he loves so much to miss out on the joys of his gifts, our true love is a great gift from God, and so his partaking in creation with him and having children... i cannot believe that just because of death that he would deny his children these gifts... these things would have taken palce in Eden and they will take place in Heaven, and it will clearly be so much better there, just as Adam and Eve were one and had no need of marrying or being given in marriage, the same will be true for all of us in Heaven, our love is far stronger than a ceremony and a law, such things would be pointless and silly, just as we will not go to church in Heaven... for we will be with our lover, our family, our children, and we will be with God, and able to do things correctly, without the need of laws to guide us, for God's and our will will guide us, for they are one in the same.... this world is hard, but we must endure..
it gets frustrating, the world is going to end in suffering anyways, we know this to be true... truely what can we do? nothing we do will stop the suffering... but we must not loose hope, or faith
"...but those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint." - Isaiah 40:31
God is our hope, our heavenly father, our creator, our savior... it is such a struggle to make it through this life... and sinning and evil thoughts make it so much worse... all we can do i guess is to keep on trying, keep hoping in God, adn to know that He is in control, and that our loved ones are safe with him, adn that justice will be had, and we will be returned to them, exactly as we should be, as parent and child, as lovers, as friends, as brothers and sisters in Christ... as human beings, as the loved children of God...
sorry for the long post... hope it atleast perhaps made someone feel a little better or i dunno... hopefully something good..