Genesis & 24-hr days (The scientific proof for Genesis thread)

[Gman]

You wouldn't consider finding a warm climate drastically changing into a freezing cold climate a global scale catastrophe? Especially with the evidence found within the stomachs of the animals that once lived there.

How does that support the global flood idea?

You might want to point me to where I am supposed to read this, because I'm not finding it in the site that you supplied.

Well being a California kid I happen to know upper Yosemite pretty well and well enough to know that marine fossils are not found there. As I was saying earlier igneous rocks, (like granite) typically do not reveal marine fossils..

[CAT]

How does that support the global flood idea?

You don't think that a climate that was once a permanently tropical place where palm trees grew and all of a sudden became a frozen land of ice does not qualify or constitute (or equal up to) a global flood? I think it strongly supports a global flood because the mammoths that I mentioned earlier were found to have been frozen instantly by a catastrophic event that "permanently" (from that point on) changed the weather conditions of that region of the earth.

Well being a California kid I happen to know upper Yosemite pretty well and well enough to know that marine fossils are not found there. As I was saying earlier igneous rocks, (like granite) typically do not reveal marine fossils..

That might be so, but very close to this area is a region known as "little Yosemite" where there is a narrow gorge on Alameda Creek with boulders and rushing water where there is sandstone outcroppings with marine fossils that indicate the region was once under water.

I have a strange feeling we are going to end up going around and around with this argument, in which I don't have the time or the inclination to French kiss you to get a straight answer.

[Gman]

You don't think that a climate that was once a permanently tropical place where palm trees grew and all of a sudden became a frozen land of ice does not qualify or constitute (or equal up to) a global flood? I think it strongly supports a global flood because the mammoths that I mentioned earlier were found to have been frozen instantly by a catastrophic event that "permanently" (from that point on) changed the weather conditions of that region of the earth.

It's not a good analogy.. No one is denying catastrophic events occur. I many cases they are local. As an example a mammoth falling into a nearby ice cave, or an avalanche gets them in the winter. We don't find mass mammoth burials.. That is what I'm saying..

Well being a California kid I happen to know upper Yosemite pretty well and well enough to know that marine fossils are not found there. As I was saying earlier igneous rocks, (like granite) typically do not reveal marine fossils..

That might be so, but very close to this area is a region known as "little Yosemite" where there is a narrow gorge on Alameda Creek with boulders and rushing water where there is sandstone outcroppings with marine fossils that indicate the region was once under water.

I have a strange feeling we are going to end up going around and around with this argument, in which I don't have the time or the inclination to French kiss you to get a straight answer.

Hmm a kiss?

Trust me.. "Little Yosemite" is well below upper Yosemite. That is where all the rivers flow to so of course we would expect to find marine life there. No surprises here.. And it isn't just Yosemite we are talking about, it's where ever you find igneous rocks.

[ageofknowledge]

Use these laser light swords fellas. They're safer.

[touchingcloth]

Use these laser light swords fellas. They're safer.

Surely the force would be the safest option (if not as cool as the laser swords)?

[erawdrah]

That all sounds very nice, except you miss one fact, the flood didn't cover the entire earth. Let me take Psalm 104:9 for instance, "You set a boundary they cannot cross; never again will they cover the earth." Here the author is speaking of the waters that first covered the earth and how they would never cover the entire earth again, and to this day they have not. The flood account in Genesis is speaking of a local flood, one that is documented and proven to have happened around the same time as Noah was around. This fact dislodges the idea that water tampered with the elements and caused problems with the dating. Now either Psalm 104:9 is wrong, or the flood was not global and the "global flood" idea is a missinterpritation of the text. Or the flood account is wrong and it never happened if Psalm 104:9 is correct. I believe Psalm 104:9 is correct and the flood story is also true, but that the text was missinterprited.
I won't waste time explaining this, there is an article on this site that does that quite well.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... fZIPq3LaPg
Now if this is true, and I hold that it is, then the idea you mentioned above is not true in all cases. One other thing you are missing is that it isn't just fossils and such on earth that give us the age of earth and the universe, there are other planets and stars that tell us these same things along with other messuerments from earth.

Sorry for the short post, in a hurry.
God bless!

One of the passages that most Christian people quote to give weight to modern science is Psalms 104 and Job 38:8-11. They state that Psalm 104 is a total recount of creation and shows that God set boundries for the water's so they wouldn't flood the earth. This is to prove that Noah's flood was local because set boundries for the waters. This is not true.

Verse 2 Who coverest theyself with light as with a garment (is this the light created in Gen 1:3?): who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain (expanding universe)
Verse 3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind (water canaopy or even higher)
Verse 4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire (creation of angels)
Verse 5 Who laid the foundations of the earth (creation of the earth)
Verse 6 Thou coveredst it(earth) with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains. (Noah's global flood)
Verse 7 At they rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. (Flood still)
Verse 8 They go up by mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them. (Flood, mountains rose up and water's retreated to the valley's where God made a place for them)
Verse 9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over, that they turn not again to cover the earth (God's promise to the earth not to be judged with a global flood again)

Job 38:8-11, for context we'll start in verse 4
Verse 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations fo the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. (creation)
Verse 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? (who know the measurements of the earth- creation still)
Verse 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone? (still about creation)
Verse 7 The angels shouted for joy for God's creation. (Creation is done because the angels shouted for joy)
Verse 8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? (Noah's flood, water gushed out of the earth as water from a womb, waters didn't gush out in creation)
Verse 9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, (Flood still rain/storm clouds)
Verse 10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors (waters went to the places God had for them and set boundries that the earth should not be judged by global flood again)
Verse 11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed? (boundries set after the flood)

These passages in no way speak of waters having a boundry prior to the flood. Genesis 1 doesn't speak of setting boundries but the waters were gather into one place. Once you reach verse 6 in Psalms God is speaking of the flood not creation and once you reach verse 8 in Job God is speaking of the flood not creation.

The flood was a judgment on man. God was going to kill everything he had created. This cannot be local if it was to destroy all of creation. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord! The ark is a picture of Jesus and Noah and his family is a picture of mankind. This picture shows us how Jesus is the only way to avoid the punishment for sin, which is death. This is our grace from God. Jesus' blood on the cross paid the wages for our sin, therefore, we are saved in Jesus from the judgment of God, as Noah was saved from the judgment of God in Genesis.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So is just a partial judgment too? Let me guess all doesn't mean all here. Are you ready?

[CAT]

Thank you erawdrah, the force is strong in you!

Now for you Gman, Bla bla bla! It doesn't matter how you bicker about this because geologist know that Yosemite was formed when the Sierra Nevada region lay beneath an “ancient sea“. THAT RIGHT, AN ANCIENT SEA! (that means WATER!) And where the thick layers of sediment that rested on the sea bed was eventually folded and twisted and thrust above sea level. Simultaneously molten rock welled up from deep within the earth and cooled slowly beneath the layers of sediment to form granite. Erosion gradually wore away almost all the overlying rock and exposed the granite. And even as uplifts continued to form the Sierra, water and then glaciers went to work to carve the face of Yosemite. Weathering and erosion continue to shape it today.

And please explain to me that if the weather didn't change drastically AND PERMANENTLY in the arctic, where did the tropical foods come from that were found in the stomachs of the frozen mammoths? This was a region of the world that once grew palm trees. This was not just some "local" catastrophe.

[touchingcloth]

Now for you Gman, Bla bla bla!

That's not exactly the best way to endear yourself to someone...

[Gman]

Thank you erawdrah, the force is strong in you!

Now for you Gman, Bla bla bla! It doesn't matter how you bicker about this because geologist know that Yosemite was formed when the Sierra Nevada region lay beneath an “ancient sea“. THAT RIGHT, AN ANCIENT SEA! (that means WATER!) And where the thick layers of sediment that rested on the sea bed was eventually folded and twisted and thrust above sea level. Simultaneously molten rock welled up from deep within the earth and cooled slowly beneath the layers of sediment to form granite. Erosion gradually wore away almost all the overlying rock and exposed the granite. And even as uplifts continued to form the Sierra, water and then glaciers went to work to carve the face of Yosemite. Weathering and erosion continue to shape it today.

Not exactly... Yosemite was formed by glaciers..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite

If you are referring to the ancient earth, then yes it was (in the beginning) was formed out of the water, but NOT because of Noah's flood. There was water in the very beginning that covered about 90 percent of the earth's surface except for a few volcanoes. And that water probably came from a comet.

And please explain to me that if the weather didn't change drastically AND PERMANENTLY in the arctic, where did the tropical foods come from that were found in the stomachs of the frozen mammoths? This was a region of the world that once grew palm trees. This was not just some "local" catastrophe.

Again, mammoths probably ate plants from the lowlands, then climbed up a glacier and fell into a cavern. It happens all the time with other animals too.

Now I have a question.. Where are all the thousands and thousands of frozen mammoths?

Also palm trees can be explained through plate tectonics. The plates shifted to the north after millions of years.. It wasn't sudden and we have evidence to prove that...

[CAT]

Not exactly... Yosemite was formed by glaciers..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite

If you are referring to the ancient earth, then yes it was (in the beginning) was formed out of the water, but NOT because of Noah's flood. There was water in the very beginning that covered about 90 percent of the earth's surface except for a few volcanoes. And that water probably came from a comet.

Well the evolutionists have imagined this, which btw is only a hypothesis and the same goes for a comet. Either way, no matter how one tries to escape the fact… WATER still covered Yosemite weather it was at the time of creation and additionally during Noah's flood!

Now I have a question.. Where are all the thousands and thousands of frozen mammoths?

Well I'd say that when Noah's flood came is probably sent a gust of freezing air towards the arctic. Some of the Mammoths were able to escape it and unfortunately others weren't so lucky, maybe the others were able to take refuge on higher ground.

Also palm trees can be explained through plate tectonics. The plates shifted to the north after millions of years.. It wasn't sudden and we have evidence to prove that...

This may be true to a certain extent, but it still doesn't explain how warm tropical food was found in the stomachs of the frozen mammoths. Unless you are saying that the mammoths did not die in the Arctic.

Gman, we can certainly keep going at this, but you might be surprised to find out that I can argue the point just as good as I can French kiss with a toothpick and I aint even a redneck.

[zoegirl]

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mammoths.html

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... dfb78e137f

Check out the evidence for the mammoths...

The latest ice age didn't cover the plants and grasses..

The grinding teeth of the woolly mammoth were well suited to feed on steppe grasses. Indeed, stomach contents from well-preserved Siberian specimens indicated a preponderance of grasses and low-lying herbs, although woodier growth may form an important part of its winter diet.

http://www.ansp.org/museum/jefferson/ot ... muthus.php

May I ask what sources you are using to conclude the diet consisted of tropical plants?!??!

[cslewislover]

Gman, we can certainly keep going at this, but you might be surprised to find out that I can argue the point just as good as I can French kiss with a toothpick and I aint even a redneck.

This is . . . . . appropriate.* I feel like I walked into a bar.


* Not (imo).

[Gman]

Well the evolutionists have imagined this, which btw is only a hypothesis and the same goes for a comet. Either way, no matter how one tries to escape the fact… WATER still covered Yosemite weather it was at the time of creation and additionally during Noah's flood!

There is no proof that Noah's flood covered Yosemite.. If you have the proof then show it please...

Now I have a question.. Where are all the thousands and thousands of frozen mammoths?

Well I'd say that when Noah's flood came is probably sent a gust of freezing air towards the arctic. Some of the Mammoths were able to escape it and unfortunately others weren't so lucky, maybe the others were able to take refuge on higher ground.

There was no higher ground in Noah's flood. The entire earth was covered with water (according to the theory).

This may be true to a certain extent, but it still doesn't explain how warm tropical food was found in the stomachs of the frozen mammoths. Unless you are saying that the mammoths did not die in the Arctic.

Zoe and I would like the source of that statement please..

Gman, we can certainly keep going at this, but you might be surprised to find out that I can argue the point just as good as I can French kiss with a toothpick and I aint even a redneck.

Ah... ok... We just want to see the proof not just the assertions..

[CAT]

There is no proof that Noah's flood covered Yosemite.. If you have the proof then show it please...

You show me proof that it didn't?

There was no higher ground in Noah's flood. The entire earth was covered with water (according to the theory).

THAT'S RIGHT!

Zoe and I would like the source of that statement please..

Oh so now we have Donnie and Marie back on stage together.

FYI I watched and heard it (along with millions of other people) on the National Geographic special when they were doing the dissecting of the frozen woolly mammoth.

[zoegirl]

Then you should have no trouble providing the source....I provided three of mine. I have spent over 20 minutes simply searching National geographic and mammoth dissections....no search results come up for tropical plant diet. So please, provide your source.

FYI, you should perhaps read the guidelines for etiquette between OEC and YEC discussions. You have shown a tendency to be elusive in your debate and critical to our Christian faith...show your sources and show your proof instead of simply asserting.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =6&t=32715