Proof for an Intelligent Creator

[andersbranderud]

I hope you will find this text interesting.
According to science our universe (space-time) has a beginning (Read page 660 — 661 in the book “The future of theoretical physics and cosmology: celebrating Stephen Hawking”. The specific section is written by the cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin of the Tufts university.)

It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause. Since space-time has a beginning there was a first physical occurrence. Causality requires that the first physical occurrence had a cause. The fact that space-time has a beginning implies that this Prime Cause is non-dimensional and independent of space-time.

To conclude the above paragraphs:
Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator).
Ergo: There is no universe.
Fact: There is a universe.
Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).
(Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)

Being logically consistent (orderly), our (to say perfectly-orderly would be a tautology) orderly universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Orderly; i.e. Perfect. An orderly—"not capricious," as Einstein put it—Creator (also implying Just), therefore, necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Torah, see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Torah —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Some of the text is a quote from www.netzarim.co.il)

The fact that the Creator is perfect implies that He isn't self-contradictory. Therefore any religion, and all religions contradicts each other (otherwise they would be identical), that contradicts Torah is the antithesis to the Creator.

The most common counter arguments are answered here: http://bloganders.blogspot.com/search/l ... 0arguments)

Anders Branderud

[touchingcloth]

All of the above assumes that the law of causality (as you state it) holds true outside of our own universe. It could be that causality was created along with space, time and matter. This is not to say that the universe didn't have an intelligent creator, just that it doesn't follow necessarily from the axioms.

[Byblos]

All of the above assumes that the law of causality (as you state it) holds true outside of our own universe. It could be that causality was created along with space, time and matter. This is not to say that the universe didn't have an intelligent creator, just that it doesn't follow necessarily from the axioms.

It's not a law, it's a logical argument that would hold true in any universe.

[touchingcloth]

All of the above assumes that the law of causality (as you state it) holds true outside of our own universe. It could be that causality was created along with space, time and matter. This is not to say that the universe didn't have an intelligent creator, just that it doesn't follow necessarily from the axioms.

It's not a law, it's a logical argument that would hold true in any universe.

The law of causality would, or anderbranderud's argument would?

[cslewislover]

@ anders. So I assume you're saying that Christianity is wrong because you think it contradicts the Torah. Christians don't think so, obviously. The first Christians were Jews (and Samaritans, who only had the Pentateuch) and they didn't seem to have a problem with that either.

[touchingcloth]

@ anders. So I assume you're saying that Christianity is wrong because you think it contradicts the Torah. Christians don't think so, obviously. The first Christians were Jews (and Samaritans, who only had the Pentateuch) and they didn't seem to have a problem with that either.

I think he's saying religions that have a god other than the judeo-christian one are the antithesis (as they have jewish scripture as a base).

[cslewislover]

@ anders. So I assume you're saying that Christianity is wrong because you think it contradicts the Torah. Christians don't think so, obviously. The first Christians were Jews (and Samaritans, who only had the Pentateuch) and they didn't seem to have a problem with that either.

I think he's saying religions that have a god other than the judeo-christian one are the antithesis (as they have jewish scripture as a base).

But our scriptures (the NT) are outside of the Torah, which he claims are the only instructions from God. So our religion has to be wrong. We believe Jesus was also God, so obviously what He said are further "instructions."

[touchingcloth]

@csll
But the bible doesn't contradict the torah, does it?

[cslewislover]

@csll
But the bible doesn't contradict the torah, does it?

The NT could be seen as contradicting the Torah. Why do you think Jesus got into so much trouble with the Jewish leaders at the time? Anders is not a Christian, at least in our sense. I went to that website. They claim to follow the teacher Jesus and think that we follow a paganized Jesus. That's what I got out of it - their wording isn't very user-friendly. They deny many prophecies concerning Jesus . . . I didn't read too much . . . if he comes back he can explain.

[touchingcloth]

@csll
But the bible doesn't contradict the torah, does it?

The NT could be seen as contradicting the Torah. Why do you think Jesus got into so much trouble with the Jewish leaders at the time? Anders is not a Christian, at least in our sense. I went to that website. They claim to follow the teacher Jesus and think that we follow a paganized Jesus. That's what I got out of it - their wording isn't very user-friendly. They deny many prophecies concerning Jesus . . . I didn't read too much . . . if he comes back he can explain.

Indeed. I didn't think too much of the logic on that site either lol.

[DannyM]

All of the above assumes that the law of causality (as you state it) holds true outside of our own universe. It could be that causality was created along with space, time and matter. This is not to say that the universe didn't have an intelligent creator, just that it doesn't follow necessarily from the axioms.

Just a thought, Touchingcloth - If God is not the first cause on which all created causes depend (you are not saying this but I'd like to put this to you based on your objective stance) then what would you propose could be a cause of the nondescript "spark" which ignited the big bang and all matter into being?

Dan

[touchingcloth]

All of the above assumes that the law of causality (as you state it) holds true outside of our own universe. It could be that causality was created along with space, time and matter. This is not to say that the universe didn't have an intelligent creator, just that it doesn't follow necessarily from the axioms.

Just a thought, Touchingcloth - If God is not the first cause on which all created causes depend (you are not saying this but I'd like to put this to you based on your objective stance) then what would you propose could be a cause of the nondescript "spark" which ignited the big bang and all matter into being?

Dan

One of 2 options really:
1 - It could be possible that the universe was caused by something with a purpose. This could be a transcendent "being", perhaps of a simulation a la "The Matrix" being run somewhere (for example), or yet more things which we haven't thought about or perhaps are even unable to think about. All of the above could loosely be described as god (but it doesn't follow logically that it must be the biblical god, in particular).
2 - It could be that the universe was caused totally by accident by whatever existed "before" the universe. Since we have no idea what was before the universe we presently have no way of knowing if our own "laws" of cause and effect held true before the universe, or if that is even a meaningful question to ask.

But to answer your question, I wouldn't propose any cause of the spark, I wouldn't even propose that there would necessarily have to be a cause of the spark per se. Personally I think the only reasonable and honest answer to the question of "what caused the universe" is "we don't know" - and I hold that answer open to change subject to any evidence that may arise.

[DannyM]

One of 2 options really:
1 - It could be possible that the universe was caused by something with a purpose. This could be a transcendent "being", perhaps of a simulation a la "The Matrix" being run somewhere (for example), or yet more things which we haven't thought about or perhaps are even unable to think about. All of the above could loosely be described as god (but it doesn't follow logically that it must be the biblical god, in particular).
2 - It could be that the universe was caused totally by accident by whatever existed "before" the universe. Since we have no idea what was before the universe we presently have no way of knowing if our own "laws" of cause and effect held true before the universe, or if that is even a meaningful question to ask.

But to answer your question, I wouldn't propose any cause of the spark, I wouldn't even propose that there would necessarily have to be a cause of the spark per se. Personally I think the only reasonable and honest answer to the question of "what caused the universe" is "we don't know" - and I hold that answer open to change subject to any evidence that may arise.

1 - If the universe was "caused," as appears to be the case, and we see the order, both social and moral, then it is surely tempting to point to a "orderer" a "purposer"? For the basis of the question we need not get into "which God," but to establish, if no God, no purposeful cause, then what? And then we can ask Why anything at all and not nothing?

2 - Could be. If you have read the opening of Genesis there is definitely a hint that there was a primordial chaos before God created by seperation. (I'm referencing the bible for the sake of making the point.) Something can be made out of nothing, though it is not "nothing" from which anything was made. But left to our own understanding of what is natural, it is hard for me to envisage anything other than the supernatural whom we can point the finger at.

So in response to your answer, can I take it that you have never asked a theist "If God is the cause, then what caused God"? You are perfectly rational in treating your "unknowingness" or "unknowability" in a neutral fashion, and I couldn't possibly critisise such a stance.

Dan

[touchingcloth]

So in response to your answer, can I take it that you have never asked a theist "If God is the cause, then what caused God"? You are perfectly rational in treating your "unknowingness" or "unknowability" in a neutral fashion, and I couldn't possibly critisise such a stance.

Dan

Yes; to me the question of "what caused god" - if the posited god is the causer of the universe - makes no sense.

[DannyM]

So in response to your answer, can I take it that you have never asked a theist "If God is the cause, then what caused God"? You are perfectly rational in treating your "unknowingness" or "unknowability" in a neutral fashion, and I couldn't possibly critisise such a stance.

Dan

Yes; to me the question of "what caused god" - if the posited god is the causer of the universe - makes no sense.

Thank you.