I got stuck in an argument with an evolutionist that told me that the Bible says that Birds came before Reptiles (and dinosaurs) (Genesis 1:21) whereas fossils evidence is showing the contrary.
Anyone has encounter that kind of argument before?
Does the birds preceeded the dinosaurs?
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Re: Does the birds preceeded the dinosaurs?
Mannix, I took this from another post..
More about the winged birds were around BEFORE the beasts of the earth (according to the Bible)... As Rich points out, it's all about how you interpret a few Hebrew words...
More about the winged birds were around BEFORE the beasts of the earth (according to the Bible)... As Rich points out, it's all about how you interpret a few Hebrew words...
Rich Deem wrote:Mortenson makes numerous statements regarding what the Bible teaches about the creation of animals: starfish before earthworms, dolphins before dinosaurs, birds before dinosaurs and reptiles, pterosaurs before land reptiles, whales and bats before land animals, mammals (cattle) before “creeping things” and flying insects before land insects. This is tied to the events of the fifth (Genesis 1:20-23) and sixth (Genesis 1:24-25) creation “days”:
20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth. … the fifth day.” (NIV)
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. … the sixth day.” (NIV)
The narrative of the fifth “day” describes the creation of two types of sea creatures: great creatures and creatures with which the water teems. The Hebrew word for great creatures (tanniyn) refers to “enormous creatures or whales.”22 The Hebrew word for the other creatures (sherets) means swarming things.23 In verse 20, both these creatures are referred to as “living things.” The Hebrew word used here (nephesh) connotes creatures with the attributes of mind, will and emotion.24 This indicates the sea creatures created on the fifth “day” were not fish but air-breathing mammals—whales, dolphins, porpoises and the like.25
The narrative of the fifth “day” also states God created “every winged bird.” The Hebrew word used here (owph) means to fly and is normally restricted to birds. For example, this is the term used to describe the birds Noah took aboard the ark. It can refer to flying insects. However, in that usage, it is usually combined with the Hebrew word sheres connoting “winged creeping thing” (e.g., Leviticus 11:20-23).26 The usage here seems to restrict the meaning to birds.
One possible exception is bats. Bats are listed among the unclean birds (owph) the Jews were instructed not to eat in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. Some take this to mean the created owph included bats. Others claim the dietary statements have no bearing on Genesis 1—bats were listed with birds because the people of that day would not have understood the distinction between birds and mammals. The bottom line is we cannot rule out the possibility the owph on the fifth “day” included bats.
The narrative of the sixth creation “day” speaks of the creation of three types of land animals: livestock, creatures that move along the ground and wild animals. The Hebrew word for livestock (behema) refers to large four-footed mammals that are easy to domesticate.27 The Hebrew word for creatures that move along the ground (remes) refers to the locomotion of small creatures—small rodents and certain small reptiles.28 The Hebrew word for wild animals (chay) means wild or alive. Chay comes from the root haya that conveys living life to the fullest.29 Because this requires the attributes of mind, will and emotion; chay seems to refer to wild mammals.
Many young-earth creationists assume the creatures that move along the ground (remes) include crawling insects. However, a Hebrew word with a similar meaning, sheres, is normally used for those creatures. Sheres is also used to refer to creatures that glide or have many legs such as snakes, spiders and caterpillars.30
Based on the Hebrew word meanings, it is evident the text does not describe the creation of all sea and land creatures. The fifth “day” speaks of whales and other sea mammals, while the sixth “day” speaks of large mammals, small mammals and certain small reptiles. Therefore, we can only speculate as to where fish, amphibians, large reptiles, dinosaurs, insects and a host of other sea and land creatures fit into the scheme of the six creation “days.”
Many of Mortenson's statements go beyond the details of the biblical text. We simply cannot say with certainty if starfish preceded earthworms, birds and dolphins preceded dinosaurs, pterosaurs preceded land reptiles, and flying insects preceded land insects. He interprets the narratives of the fifth and sixth “days” to mean God created all sea and air creatures before He created land creatures. The text does not support that view. The Hebrew terms clearly do not encompass all of the creatures of the sea, land and air.31
Mortenson states mammals preceded creeping things (the KJV translation for remes). He notes the order mentioned in Scripture suggests a slight difference in the timing of their appearance; i.e., they were created on the same day, possibly moments or hours apart. The text gives no indication the different land animals were created sequentially.
According to Mortenson, bats preceded land animals. As stated previously, it is unclear if bats were created with birds on the fifth “day.” If they were, they would have preceded only those land animals specified in the narrative of the sixth “day”—certain mammals and small reptiles.
Mortenson claims whales preceded land animals. The Bible does indicate whales were created on the fifth “day” and the land animals on the sixth “day.” Again, that does not include all land animals—only certain mammals and small reptiles.
Finally, Mortenson alleges that birds preceded reptiles. The Bible does indicate birds were created on the fifth “day” and reptiles (remes) on the sixth “day.” However, the Hebrew word remes does include all reptiles. It refers only to small, modern reptiles common to the area of Palestine.32
It is important to note the verbs used in the narratives of the fifth and sixth “days.” The Bible states God created (bara) the sea creatures and birds. This indicates they were instantaneous creations by divine fiat. However, the text tells us God commanded the land to produce the land animals. The Hebrew verb used here, yatsar, has the meaning of “to cause to come forth.”33 This suggests the land animals were not instantaneous creations but something God may have introduced over time.
It should also be added that, according to the young-earth model, God created all land the animals—both living and extinct—in a 24-hour period. Thus, they would have all been on the Earth simultaneously. The narrative of sixth “day” does not support that view. The Hebrew terms clearly do not encompass all the land animals and the verb usage (yatsar) suggests a creative process of longer than 24 hours.
Source: http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/mortenson.html
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
Re: Does the birds preceeded the dinosaurs?
Modern birds originated a hundred million years ago—long before the demise of dinosaurs, according to new research.
In searching for the first ancestors of modern birds, studies have shown discrepancies between results from fossils and genetic analyses.
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Fossil records suggest that modern birds originated 60 million years ago, after the end of the Cretaceous period about 65 million years ago when dinosaurs died off.
But molecular studies suggest that the genetic divergences between many lineages of birds occurred during the Cretaceous period.
Now a new study based on molecular evidence suggests that avian ancestors were flapping their wings some 40 million years earlier than thought.
The discovery of feathers in a fossil that predates most birdlike dinosaurs has calls into serious question the idea that birds descended from dinosaurs.
Researchers writing in today's issue of Science made the discovery while painstakingly examining a specimen only chanced upon at a recent touring exhibit of Russian fossils.
"These are some amazing fossils, and at the very least they prove that feathers did not evolve in dinosaurs," said John Ruben, Professor of Zoology at Oregon State University (OSU). "The supposed link between dinosaurs and birds is pretty entrenched in palaeontology, but it's not as solid as the public has been led to believe."
amazing
In searching for the first ancestors of modern birds, studies have shown discrepancies between results from fossils and genetic analyses.
also Generic Viagra is not taht old but have long time given good effects
Fossil records suggest that modern birds originated 60 million years ago, after the end of the Cretaceous period about 65 million years ago when dinosaurs died off.
But molecular studies suggest that the genetic divergences between many lineages of birds occurred during the Cretaceous period.
Now a new study based on molecular evidence suggests that avian ancestors were flapping their wings some 40 million years earlier than thought.
The discovery of feathers in a fossil that predates most birdlike dinosaurs has calls into serious question the idea that birds descended from dinosaurs.
Researchers writing in today's issue of Science made the discovery while painstakingly examining a specimen only chanced upon at a recent touring exhibit of Russian fossils.
"These are some amazing fossils, and at the very least they prove that feathers did not evolve in dinosaurs," said John Ruben, Professor of Zoology at Oregon State University (OSU). "The supposed link between dinosaurs and birds is pretty entrenched in palaeontology, but it's not as solid as the public has been led to believe."
amazing